IRC log of matf on 2025-01-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:00:43 [RRSAgent]

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/01/15-matf-irc

14:00:48 [Zakim]

RRSAgent, make logs Public

14:00:49 [Zakim]

please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ

14:00:49 [JJ]

Zakim, this is MATF January 15, 2025

14:00:49 [Zakim]

got it, JJ

14:00:51 [JJ]

Meeting: MATF January 15, 2025

14:00:56 [JJ]

chair+

14:01:31 [AlainVagner]

present+

14:01:51 [Joe_Humbert]

present+

14:02:02 [Megan_Pletzer]

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14:02:36 [Carol]

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14:02:39 [JJ]

agenda+ First Public Working Draft (FPWD)

14:02:40 [Carol]

present+

14:02:45 [JJ]

agenda+ 2.4.3 Focus Order

14:02:51 [JJ]

agenda+ 2.4.11 Focus Not Obscured (Minimum)

14:02:57 [JJ]

agenda+ 2.5.8 Touch Target Size (Minimum)

14:03:46 [Aash]

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14:04:35 [Aash]

present+

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14:04:51 [Megan_Pletzer]

present+

14:05:05 [Karla]

present+

14:05:05 [julianmka]

present+

14:05:06 [JJ]

present+ AlainVagner

14:05:22 [JJ]

move to next agendum

14:05:22 [Zakim]

agendum 1 -- First Public Working Draft (FPWD) -- taken up [from JJ]

14:05:26 [JJ]

scribe+ Aash

14:05:44 [Detlev]

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14:05:52 [Detlev]

present+

14:07:27 [Aash]

JJ shared the current status of the WCAG2Mobile draft.

14:07:27 [Aash]

JJ asked the larger group to leave comments on the github

14:07:27 [Aash]

So we need to finish the issues in "drafting" section

14:08:07 [Aash]

Key terms section is pending.

14:08:23 [Aash]

JJ plans to publish this in early March

14:08:49 [JJ]

CFC in February

14:09:10 [JJ]

move to next agendum

14:09:10 [Zakim]

agendum 2 -- 2.4.3 Focus Order -- taken up [from JJ]

14:12:45 [Aash]

q+

14:12:50 [JJ]

ack Aash

14:13:32 [Jamie]

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14:13:44 [Detlev]

q+

14:13:49 [JJ]

ack Detlev

14:13:54 [Jamie]

present+

14:14:03 [Aash]

Aash shared that the default flow should be derived from research. Can be a note

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14:14:53 [Aash]

Detlev we can't assume that we can reach all elements by tapping / swiping

14:15:52 [Aash]

@detlev if you can reach elements by any means, the issues is pass, but with a note

14:16:53 [Jamie]

q+

14:17:14 [Detlev]

q+

14:17:17 [JJ]

ack Jamie

14:17:18 [Aash]

JJ we need to understand about the nuances of iOS and Android

14:18:03 [Aash]

Jamie we need to maybe differentiate the interactions in keyboard vs non-keyboard

14:18:46 [JJ]

ack Detlev

14:19:02 [Aash]

JJ we had an idea to update keyboard interface definition to include all assistive tech

14:22:06 [Aash]

JJ mentioned that keyboard + AT need to be mapped properly as they might interfere with each other

14:23:07 [Detlev]

q+

14:23:43 [JJ]

ACTION: Update "navigated sequentially" definition, it mentions "keyboard interface"

14:24:28 [JJ]

ACTION: Define the ways of interaction, e.g. tab, shift+tab, arrow keys, etc. that are acceptable to navigate

14:24:36 [Jamie]

q+

14:24:40 [JJ]

ack Detlev

14:25:05 [julianmka]

q+

14:25:39 [Aash]

Detlev we can define one way where all elements can be reached with the same interaction, arrow or tab

14:26:43 [JJ]

ACTION: Think about what "sequential" means in a mobile context in relation with the keys used for navigating

14:27:24 [Aash]

Detlev the special keystrokes needed to go to navigation / header might not be known to all.

14:28:07 [JJ]

ack Jamie

14:28:54 [Aash]

Jamie Agree with Detlev . Special keystrokes may confuse people.

14:29:18 [Aash]

Jamie the tester needs to know how the keyboard interacts with the operating system

14:30:04 [JJ]

ACTION: Consider adding Note that failure depends on whether the expected keyboard operation matches the actual keyboard operation of the component / screen

14:30:06 [julianmka]

+1 Jamie

14:30:34 [Aash]

Jamie we may add a note about keyboard functionality . That will help reduce confusion

14:30:53 [JJ]

ack julianmka

14:32:01 [JJ]

julianmka: Take semantics of the view into account to define the expected keyboard operation keys

14:32:04 [julianmka]

Workday's research on keyboard nav in mobile: https://github.com/workday-accessibility/accessibility-eval/blob/main/keyboard.md

14:32:13 [Detlev]

julianmka I was not suggesting that expectations should be overwritten, sure

14:32:46 [julianmka]

Apologies for the misunderstanding Detlev

14:33:22 [Aash]

we can mention the accepted ways of using keyboard based on comments from julianmka and Jamie

14:33:53 [JJ]

q?

14:34:01 [Aash]

JJ the guidelines with medium / large variation, we may have to work more to clarify

14:34:14 [JJ]

move to next agendum

14:34:14 [Zakim]

agendum 3 -- 2.4.11 Focus Not Obscured (Minimum) -- taken up [from JJ]

14:38:01 [JJ]

q?

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14:38:39 [Detlev]

q+

14:38:47 [Detlev]

presnt+

14:38:52 [Detlev]

present+

14:38:55 [JJ]

ack Detlev

14:39:04 [Jamie]

q+

14:39:42 [Aash]

Detlev 2.4.11 is not included yet in testing since EN does not include them

14:40:25 [Aash]

Detlev there needs to be some differentiation between keyboard and OTHER interfaces

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14:40:57 [Jamie]

prsent+

14:41:03 [Jamie]

present+

14:41:08 [Jamie]

q+

14:41:39 [JJ]

ack Jamie

14:42:54 [Aash]

Jamie we clarified that the component in focus needs to be visible, not the focus

14:43:25 [JJ]

ACTION: Clarify "author-created" definition (maybe in AG WG?)

14:43:32 [Joe_Humbert]

q+

14:43:59 [JJ]

ack Joe_Humbert

14:44:11 [Aash]

Jamie to clarify this on github

14:44:53 [Detlev]

addition to minutes: Of course you **can** include 2.4.11 in testing - it's just we don't currently, due to the current content of EN 301 549 V.3.2.1

14:45:24 [JJ]

Joe_Humbert: mentions scenario where the focus indicator is displayed visually at the top level, but the actual component that is attempted to be indicated is on a lower level (Z-index)

14:45:49 [JJ]

Jamie and Joe_Humbert both mention sticky component that could also obscure content (not very common in apps)

14:46:54 [julianmka]

I've seen the same thing as Joe's first example on app screens with shoddily-implemented modals that didn't limit focus to the modal/sheet.

14:47:02 [JJ]

JJ: Floating action button could potentially obscure content, usually fixed in bottom right position

14:47:30 [Joe_Humbert]

Q+

14:47:55 [Jamie]

q+

14:48:10 [JJ]

ack Joe_Humbert

14:50:24 [Aash]

Joe_Humbert the ATs on mobiles have been there since the beginning. Should we be considering these, mapped to keyboard interface?

14:51:31 [JJ]

ack Jamie

14:51:34 [Aash]

JJ if it is written as keyboard, we consider only keyboard. For keyboard interface, we consider others

14:52:35 [Aash]

Jamie when scrolling, the sticky header/footer turns a bit translucent, where the sighted users can detect the element in focus

14:52:36 [JJ]

Jamie: how to deal with semi-transparent (semi) sticky components that might change opacity while scrolling? When is something "not entirely hidden"?

14:54:32 [Aash]

Jamie we need to document the percentages of visibility if content is moving behind translucent sticky elements

14:58:58 [JJ]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:58:59 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/15-matf-minutes.html JJ

15:01:30 [Jamie]

@Aash just a modification: I didn't intend to suggest that we need to document the percentage of opacity for visibility

15:01:49 [Jamie]

JJ

15:08:27 [JJ]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:08:29 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/15-matf-minutes.html JJ

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15:22:12 [JJ]

regrets+ QuintinB

15:22:25 [JJ]

regrets+ TimGravemaker

15:22:30 [JJ]

regrets+ Illai

15:22:34 [JJ]

regrets+ JonGibbins

15:22:41 [JJ]

regrets+ JeroenHulscher

15:22:47 [JJ]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:22:49 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/15-matf-minutes.html JJ

15:24:15 [JJ]

rrsagent, bye

15:24:15 [RRSAgent]

I see 5 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2025/01/15-matf-actions.rdf :

15:24:15 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Update "navigated sequentially" definition, it mentions "keyboard interface" [1]

15:24:15 [RRSAgent]

recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/01/15-matf-irc#T14-23-43

15:24:15 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Define the ways of interaction, e.g. tab, shift+tab, arrow keys, etc. that are acceptable to navigate [2]

15:24:15 [RRSAgent]

recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/01/15-matf-irc#T14-24-28

15:24:15 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Think about what "sequential" means in a mobile context in relation with the keys used for navigating [3]

15:24:15 [RRSAgent]

recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/01/15-matf-irc#T14-26-43

15:24:15 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Consider adding Note that failure depends on whether the expected keyboard operation matches the actual keyboard operation of the component / screen [4]

15:24:15 [RRSAgent]

recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/01/15-matf-irc#T14-30-04

15:24:15 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Clarify "author-created" definition (maybe in AG WG?) [5]

15:24:15 [RRSAgent]

recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/01/15-matf-irc#T14-43-25

15:24:20 [JJ]

zakim, bye

15:24:20 [Zakim]

leaving. As of this point the attendees have been AlainVagner, Joe_Humbert, Carol, Aash, Megan_Pletzer, Karla, julianmka, Detlev, Jamie

15:24:20 [Zakim]

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