12:09:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #coga
12:09:47 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/01/13-coga-irc
12:09:47 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:09:48 <Zakim> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
12:09:53 <Lisa> clear agenda
12:09:56 <Lisa> clear q
12:10:06 <Lisa> q?
12:11:50 <Lisa> agenda+ Updates on user needs in  issue papers
12:12:03 <Lisa> agenda+ Updates on coga comunity
12:12:14 <Lisa> agenda+ Updates on stucture and othe rgroups
12:12:23 <Lisa> agenda+ the W3C
12:12:23 <Lisa> Calendar
12:12:23 <Lisa> <https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0e4ea52b-ee35-44da-aec7-22160a58aa3a/#next>
12:13:01 <Lisa> agenda+ WCAG paths. See https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-cognitive-a11y-tf/2025Jan/0011.html
12:13:36 <Lisa> agenda+  International suggestions
12:13:54 <Lisa> agenda+  Revisiting content usable V2 edits
12:13:54 <Lisa> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xnoNFwfjJZbfadFiU-qOW49n4-gODbd_4ff5UDyYFTM/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.z4jafdjuv6sd>
12:13:54 <Lisa> proposal 11
12:14:06 <Lisa> agenda+ Discussing a name change for Making Content Useable (If time)
12:21:36 <Lisa> Agenda?
15:53:21 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #coga
15:53:21 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/01/13-coga-irc
15:53:23 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:53:25 <Zakim> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:53:30 <Lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
15:53:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/13-coga-minutes.html Lisa
15:55:59 <Lisa> Regrets+ Eric, EA , Jennie
15:58:06 <Lisa> agenda+ next week do we have a meeting?
16:00:31 <Rain> Rain has joined #coga
16:00:37 <Rain> present+
16:01:01 <rashmi> rashmi has joined #coga
16:01:28 <rashmi> present+
16:01:34 <Lisa> q?
16:02:07 <julierawe> julierawe has joined #coga
16:02:10 <Lisa> agenda+ meetings this week
16:02:13 <julierawe> present+
16:02:33 <Lisa> scribe+ Julierawe, Lisa
16:02:52 <Lisa> next item
16:03:11 <julierawe> Lisa We discussed last week about adding user needs to the issue papers
16:03:27 <julierawe> Lisa We talked more in the editors call on Thursday and agreed that it was a good idea to add user needs
16:03:56 <julierawe> Lisa To keep it simple, we will add a section called User Needs and fill it with the user needs we know already
16:04:26 <julierawe> Lisa We'll include an editors note asking for comments to see if readers want a section like this
16:04:32 <Lisa> next item
16:05:02 <julierawe> Rain I don't have an update yet on whether the coga community has updates on the user needs
16:05:16 <julierawe> Rain Kiki is preparing the community to present to us
16:05:37 <julierawe> Rain I expect to hear soon when Kiki and a community rep want to present to COGA
16:05:54 <Lisa> next item
16:06:07 <julierawe> Rain There is a call later this week
16:06:17 <julierawe> Rain We'll have the revised template ready to try out on the call later this week
16:06:27 <julierawe> Rain I'll send an email reminder to everyone today or tomorrow about the meeting
16:06:42 <julierawe> Rain This will be the Thursday subgroup meeting
16:06:53 <Lisa> next item
16:07:05 <julierawe> Lisa We also have Rashmi's mental health meeting and an editors call on Thursday before Rain's meeting
16:07:09 <Lisa> next item
16:07:31 <julierawe> Lisa W3C is changing the way we schedule meetings
16:07:38 <Lisa> https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0e4ea52b-ee35-44da-aec7-22160a58aa3a/#next
16:07:48 <julierawe> Lisa Does anyone have problems with the calendar system?
16:07:50 <julierawe> ?+
16:07:58 <julierawe> Lisa I don't know yet how to add events to the calendar
16:08:13 <julierawe> Lisa I'll add events for the subgroups
16:08:24 <julierawe> Lisa Do people want me to add the subgroups to the W3C calendar?
16:08:27 <tiffanyburtin> tiffanyburtin has joined #coga
16:08:37 <tiffanyburtin> present+
16:08:45 <julierawe> Lisa Is it OK if I make a generic subgroup calendar event and people have to look at the subgroup page to know which subgroup is meeting that day?
16:08:51 <julierawe> q+
16:09:38 <DavidSwallow> DavidSwallow has joined #coga
16:09:40 <Lisa> julie: 1. old call info page is going away :( need to use w3c calander
16:09:56 <Lisa> Julie: find it confucing
16:10:18 <Lisa> to add events or join
16:11:13 <Lisa> 2: i want to know what the group is each week - at least name of the subgroup meeting
16:11:26 <Rain> Rain has joined #coga
16:11:39 <Lisa> lisa: list as the agenda?
16:11:55 <Rain> q+
16:12:23 <Lisa> Rain: i change the color if they are my subgroup
16:12:26 <julierawe> Rain On my calendar I change the color of the subgroup meetings for the ones that I need to be ready for and attentive to
16:12:34 <Lisa> ack next
16:12:40 <Lisa> ack next
16:12:46 <julierawe> Rain I think there is a benefit to finding a way to know which subgroup is meeting when
16:13:10 <julierawe> Rain The subgroup schedule — groups might switch, so there can be variability there
16:13:33 <julierawe> Rain I can imagine that it would get out of date if we try to schedule specific subgroup meetings instead of just on the wiki
16:14:16 <julierawe> Rain The other option is to make it more regular. Right now it's based on availability. If we shifted it to every subgroup meets every three weeks. maybe it would be easier to know which group is going when
16:14:46 <julierawe> Lisa Maybe if we have a list in the calendar invite or a link to the wiki page that says which groups are meeting when
16:14:53 <julierawe> q+
16:15:00 <Lisa> ack next
16:15:45 <Rain> +1 to a Google calendar
16:15:53 <julierawe> Lisa We could keep the google calendar invites and have it link to the W3C calendar
16:16:31 <tiffanyburtin> q+
16:16:49 <Lisa> https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0e4ea52b-ee35-44da-aec7-22160a58aa3a/#next
16:17:00 <julierawe> Lisa With this new system, we could make a similar page—the problem is you have to log in
16:17:10 <Lisa> ack next
16:17:15 <julierawe> Lisa Wherever we put the zoom information, people will have to log in
16:17:43 <julierawe> tiffanyburtin I block off my Thursdays on my calendar because I forget which subgroups are meeting on which Thursdays
16:17:57 <julierawe> tiffanyburtin But that leads to overwhelm so I'd like an easy link to which subgroups are meeting when
16:18:09 <julierawe> Lisa We send emails as well
16:18:40 <julierawe> Lisa We want to add a Thursday subgroup event to the W3C calendar
16:18:56 <julierawe> Lisa I will also send an email to see if anyone has trouble logging in
16:19:01 <Lisa> next item
16:19:24 <julierawe> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dTbw8Kt2BrYyUTwO0q3PD3XT353s7AXmYysosYBaR2A/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.pmn8vobaazf2
16:20:31 <Lisa> wcag is working out how to get the rest of wcag 3 drafted
16:20:48 <Lisa> deviding the work into topics or paths
16:21:00 <Lisa> we want one coga person at least per path
16:21:45 <Lisa> prefer one main rep and  more as participents to take a look at the draft and flag issues
16:22:01 <Lisa> we are all feeling streched
16:22:09 <Lisa> q+
16:22:22 <Lisa> jan 21 deadline for sign ing up
16:22:27 <Rain> q+
16:22:31 <Lisa> sign up via survey
16:22:39 <Lisa> ack next
16:23:13 <Lisa> how long is this?
16:23:23 <Lisa> first draft is 6 month
16:23:50 <Lisa> julie: coga perspective will be good
16:23:56 <Lisa> in each path
16:24:53 <Lisa> q+
16:25:05 <Lisa> ack next
16:25:30 <julierawe> Rain In terms of whether someone is a COGA rep or a COGA participant, how is that being determined?
16:25:58 <Lisa> julie: participent meens that you wont need to go every week
16:26:06 <Lisa> try and reduce the stress
16:27:04 <Lisa> can also do it asyncronosly
16:27:43 <Lisa> lisa: what do we have so far
16:29:31 <julierawe> tiffanyburtin I can help coordinate, but I can't be the main rep for any groups
16:29:44 <julierawe> Lisa People can be quite active and also meeting a meeting
16:29:52 <julierawe> Lisa We can see what we've got
16:30:01 <Lisa> q?
16:30:06 <julierawe> Lisa It's better to have people participate
16:30:12 <Lisa> q-
16:30:14 <julierawe> rashmi I can participate asynchronously
16:30:26 <julierawe> rashmi Time zones make it hard
16:30:34 <DavidSwallow> present+
16:30:49 <julierawe> rashmi I can work on help and errors and structure and cognitive support
16:31:19 <julierawe> rashmi Mental health should also be included
16:31:29 <julierawe> Lisa Cognitive support includes mental health support
16:31:42 <tiffanyburtin> I can set up the COGA Slack channel again. For some reason it disappeared. I can also create sub groups to have an easy quick conversation method to coordinate attendance.
16:32:49 <julierawe> Resharing the google doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dTbw8Kt2BrYyUTwO0q3PD3XT353s7AXmYysosYBaR2A/edit?tab=t.0
16:32:55 <Lisa> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dTbw8Kt2BrYyUTwO0q3PD3XT353s7AXmYysosYBaR2A/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.pmn8vobaazf2
16:33:03 <julierawe> Fill in this google doc so COGA members can see where there are gaps
16:33:23 <Lisa> also fill in survey
16:33:29 <Lisa> q-
16:34:14 <julierawe> DavidSwallow I could be on interaction and AT support
16:36:01 <julierawe> Please fill in this AG survey by January 21st: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Path_Participation_25/
16:36:17 <julierawe> The survey asks for times you're available to meet
16:36:33 <julierawe> Lisa We need more COGA participation but it's looking good
16:36:51 <julierawe> Lisa We can also point the groups to COGA patterns that we've already done
16:36:54 <Lisa> next item
16:37:05 <Lisa> close item 6
16:37:09 <rashmi> rashmi has joined #coga
16:37:27 <julierawe> Lisa Jan not here so moving on to the next agenda item
16:37:43 <Lisa> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xnoNFwfjJZbfadFiU-qOW49n4-gODbd_4ff5UDyYFTM/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.z4jafdjuv6sd
16:38:12 <julierawe> Lisa Proposal 11 has changed a lot and no longer what the group approved, so we're bringing it back for approval
16:38:15 <Lisa> agenda+
16:38:28 <Lisa> agenda?
16:39:00 <Lisa> close item 10
16:39:29 <Lisa> Q?
16:39:49 <julierawe> rashmi Proposal 11 is "Make links and controls labeling explicit"
16:40:07 <julierawe> rashmi The yellow highlighting shows what has changed
16:40:23 <julierawe> Labels, linked text and accessible names for links and controls are easy to understand, clear and unambiguous.
16:40:23 <julierawe> Text labels are visible, unless a ubiquitous, commonly known icon is used.
16:40:23 <julierawe> The relationship between controls and their label should be clear.
16:40:54 <julierawe> rashmi We also added three paragraphs at the end of "How it helps" section:
16:40:55 <julierawe> Links and controls should have clear visible labels. Note that labels can be available through a personalization setting. However, if controls are not common or their usage is not completely clear, we recommend clear, unambiguous, and visible labels that are clearly associated with the controls. For example, a page may have multiple search options
16:40:55 <julierawe> for different regions.Providing clear, unique and visible labels help users in knowing the purpose of different search options.
16:40:55 <julierawe> Navigational elements should be easy to understand without needing to guess. Making the text of hyperlinks as clear as possible also reduces cognitive load. This helps many groups including people with cognitive and mental health impairments.
16:40:55 <julierawe> For example a person living with SMI (Severe Mental Illness) and Schizophrenia is using a mental health app to track their mood and help them live independently. The lack of labels and clear link text makes them anxious about what they are pressing. They stop using the app as it makes them feel worse.
16:41:40 <Lisa> q+
16:42:20 <Lisa> ack next
16:42:35 <julierawe> rashmi We added one more item to the "Use" section: Links and controls that have properly associated, clear, unambiguous, visible labels.
16:42:55 <julierawe> rashmi We also add one more item to the "Avoid" section: Lack of labels and clear link text.
16:43:13 <Jan> Jan has joined #coga
16:43:17 <julierawe> Lisa Is it enough to have an explanation of what the different icons are? Is that enough?
16:43:20 <Jan> present+
16:44:00 <julierawe> Lisa Saying "text labels are visible" but sometimes you're introducing a new icon
16:44:21 <julierawe> Lisa Are we OK to say this as a requirement when we don't know it's always true?
16:44:31 <Rain> q+
16:44:37 <Jan> q+
16:44:41 <Lisa> ack next
16:44:47 <julierawe> Lisa Is this widely appropriate? "Text labels are visible, unless a ubiquitous, commonly known icon is used."
16:44:56 <julierawe> Rain What's written here would be difficult to explain
16:45:10 <julierawe> Rain I think we need a clear rubric for when a text label is required and when is an icon OK
16:45:44 <julierawe> Rain What are the factors you can use to make the decision? A rubric that would help explain what is meant by "ubiquitous, commonly known icon"
16:46:01 <julierawe> Rain A shopping cart may be known in some countries but not others
16:46:19 <julierawe> Rain A magnifying glass may be consistently used for search
16:46:56 <julierawe> Rain We could be more actionable if we say "Here's when you can use an icon if an explanation can't be provided"
16:47:07 <Lisa1> Lisa1 has joined #coga
16:47:12 <Lisa1> ack next
16:47:14 <julierawe> Jan Apologies for late arrival
16:47:28 <julierawe> Jan This is a broader issue that is going to affect a lot of disabilities
16:47:40 <julierawe> Jan For example, someone who uses text to speech
16:48:03 <julierawe> Jan Providing a tooltip helps with lots of disabilities, not just cognitive
16:48:33 <julierawe> Lisa It does say labels should have accessible names
16:48:44 <julierawe> Lisa What I'm hearing is there is no consensus on this draft
16:49:18 <julierawe> Lisa Sounds like we're not close to consensus. We really need to define when text labels need to be visible
16:49:52 <julierawe> rashmi It is quite tricky
16:50:03 <julierawe> Lisa1 We need to do a call to brainstorm and draft it
16:50:23 <julierawe> Lisa1 When we have everyone agree on the draft, then we'll bring it back to full COGA for approval
16:50:48 <julierawe> Lisa1 Jan, do you want to talk about internationalization?
16:50:54 <Lisa1> agenda?
16:50:59 <julierawe> Jan Quick update: We are meeting with the community group this Wednesday
16:51:04 <Lisa1> close item 7
16:51:13 <julierawe> Jan We're going to focus on looking at the personas and getting a first pass on those
16:51:23 <Lisa1> Q+
16:51:25 <julierawe> Jan We did finish going over all the success criteria
16:51:47 <julierawe> Jan In early February we could do a more detailed review in this meeting
16:52:04 <julierawe> Jan In the interim, we do have all the feedback in the spreadsheet and we could look at it in the editor's call
16:52:21 <julierawe> Jan By "success criteria," I mean the "patterns"
16:52:42 <julierawe> Jan I can't attend next Monday's meeting but can discuss this Thursday at the editor's call
16:53:34 <julierawe> Lisa1 We'll talk more on Thursday, maybe 1st hour will be mental health pull request and issues papers and the second hour can be internationalization feedback
16:54:02 <julierawe> Jan I can only do 9am on Thursday
16:54:13 <julierawe> q+
16:54:50 <julierawe> Lisa1 Next week is Martin Luther King Day in the US. Who is able to make the call?
16:54:52 <julierawe> Not me
16:55:17 <tiffanyburtin> tiffanyburtin has joined #coga
16:55:20 <DavidSwallow> UK here, I can.
16:55:33 <Jan> Next week's call - I will show up if I can get out of my client meeting, but will be late.
16:55:40 <Lisa1> RRSAgent, publish minutes
16:55:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/13-coga-minutes.html Lisa1
16:55:58 <Lisa1> Q-
16:56:01 <tiffanyburtin> I got kicked off. I may miss next Monday due to a health procedure. I'm unsure.
16:56:31 <julierawe> Lisa1 We need to schedule a separate call to redraft Proposal 11 about making links and labels explicit
16:57:02 <julierawe> Who can attend COGA meeting on Monday, which is Martin Luther King Day?
16:57:04 <julierawe> -1
16:57:10 <tiffanyburtin> 0
16:57:23 <julierawe> DavidSwallow +1
16:57:54 <julierawe> Jan Will try but will be late on Monday
16:57:55 <tiffanyburtin> Links and Labels - yes depending on when the call is
16:58:12 <Lisa1> RRSAgent, publish minutes
16:58:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/13-coga-minutes.html Lisa1
16:58:20 <Rain> -1 to Monday
16:58:49 <julierawe> Lisa1 Not sure if we'll have quorum. I'll email the list and see if anyone can join.
16:59:24 <julierawe> Jan If there is no meeting on Monday, maybe that's a time when you and I can connect about the internationalization feedback
16:59:37 <julierawe> Lisa1 We can try to see if we can do it on Thursday
16:59:42 <julierawe> rrsagent, make minutes
16:59:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/13-coga-minutes.html julierawe
17:00:32 <julierawe> Lisa1 We can try to talk about internationalization feedback at Thursday's editors call and if not, maybe Lisa and Jan can discuss on Monday/Martin Luther King Day
17:00:36 <julierawe> rrsagent, make minutes
17:00:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/13-coga-minutes.html julierawe
17:33:35 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #COGA