17:57:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:58:04 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/01/09-aria-irc
17:58:04 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:58:05 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
17:58:09 <spectranaut_> agendabot, find agenda
17:58:09 <agendabot> spectranaut_, OK. This may take a minute...
17:58:10 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b57854a-65cb-421e-b9e0-f9a8da31f160/20250109T130000/
17:58:10 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:58:10 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/2dn8jzc6
17:58:10 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/mre3wyh2
17:58:16 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
17:58:17 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:58:20 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Discussion of deprecation https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1862
17:58:22 <agendabot> agenda+ -> The content-visibility CSS property across browsers https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/243
17:58:25 <agendabot> agenda+ -> [accname] Explicitly state UAs must ignore “aria-label” for slots https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2385
18:00:15 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #aria
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18:00:43 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
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18:02:23 <Rahim> present+
18:02:47 <Adam_Page> present+
18:03:26 <pkra> present+
18:03:53 <katez> katez has joined #aria
18:03:56 <scott> scott has joined #aria
18:03:57 <katez> present+
18:03:59 <jcraig> scribe:jcraig
18:04:03 <giacomo-petri> present+
18:04:03 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
18:04:07 <dmontalvo> present- dmontalvo
18:04:11 <jcraig> zakim, next issue
18:04:11 <Zakim> I don't understand 'next issue', jcraig
18:04:36 <jcraig> zakkim, next item
18:04:42 <jcraig> zakim, next item
18:04:42 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/2dn8jzc6 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:05:02 <aardrian> aardrian has joined #aria
18:05:11 <aardrian> present+
18:05:18 <smockle> present+
18:05:18 <aardrian> present +
18:05:22 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2409
18:05:41 <jcraig> spectranaut_: shadow dom... left a comment for response... may close
18:05:52 <jcraig> pkra: close it
18:06:02 <aaronlev> aaronlev has joined #aria
18:06:03 <filippo-zorzi> filippo-zorzi has joined #aria
18:06:06 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2406
18:06:13 <filippo-zorzi> present+
18:06:25 <jcraig> spectranaut_: Children presentational true element nesting another control injected via JavaScript
18:06:53 <jcraig> giacomo-petri: there's a linked issue, possibly a dupe... will check
18:07:12 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2404
18:07:21 <jcraig> [ARIA] Requirement to ignore landmark roles without names creates infinite loop
18:08:13 <jcraig> should clarify... scott?
18:08:52 <jcraig> scott: we haven't identified an algorithm... should clarify for mike.
18:08:56 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
18:09:34 <jcraig> s/identified an algorithm/identified an algorithm as a WG. Implementors have and may share./
18:10:11 <sarah> sarah has joined #aria
18:10:49 <jcraig> aaronlev: will share blink's strategy
18:10:59 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
18:11:07 <StefanS> present+
18:11:32 <jcraig> scott: not as much about the name; about exposing a role basewd on the existence of a name.
18:11:54 <jcraig> scott: will tackle them both... need implementor to help.
18:12:17 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/244
18:12:24 <jcraig> Update AX API mapping for aria-multiselect
18:12:41 <ChrisCuellar> ChrisCuellar has joined #aria
18:12:55 <jcraig> spectranaut_: I will update
18:12:57 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2403
18:13:03 <jcraig> Clarify use case for aria-selected for 'grid' role descendants
18:13:49 <jcraig> ask reporter if this is addressed already
18:14:00 <jcraig> sarah: i don't think it would be
18:14:32 <jcraig> scott: i thought his issue may be resolved by related discussion in sarah's PR
18:14:49 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
18:15:11 <jcraig> assignee? sarah... (thanks sarah!)
18:15:25 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2402
18:15:31 <jcraig> Should the 'row' role really be necessary for parents of 'gridcell' and other cell role elements?
18:15:54 <jcraig> spectranaut_: scott replied... dupe?
18:16:28 <jcraig> reporter investigating based on scott's comment
18:16:37 <jcraig> zakim, next item
18:16:37 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/mre3wyh2 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:16:52 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2410
18:16:59 <jcraig> editorial: revise custom stylesheets
18:18:08 <jcraig> pkra: editorial. fyi for editors: removing core-aam.css from core and pdf
18:18:26 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2408
18:18:33 <jcraig> editorial: refactor aria.js
18:19:10 <jcraig> pkra: editorial. in draft
18:19:18 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2407
18:19:24 <jcraig> [aria] Drop “deprecated on this role” attributes from per-role tables
18:19:29 <siri> siri has joined #aria
18:20:00 <jcraig> pkra: this request changes aria.js so we may need to wait. also not sure this is desirable. I left a comment.
18:20:46 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2405
18:20:47 <jcraig> Tentative: update point E. Host Language Label of the Acc Name algorithm
18:21:04 <giacomo-petri> https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/108#issuecomment-2559428449
18:21:21 <jcraig> closes an old issue I've linked above in IRC
18:23:00 <jcraig> issue causes ambiguity that i've tried to correct with this PR... (enumerates specific issues)
18:24:43 <jcraig> spectranaut_: reviewers james, bryan, and scott
18:25:05 <jcraig> any new reviewers
18:25:31 <jcraig> lola: i ca
18:25:49 <jcraig> s/i ca/i can/
18:26:09 <jcraig> zakim, next item
18:26:09 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:27:25 <jcraig> zakim, close this item
18:27:25 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
18:27:26 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:27:26 <Zakim> 4. -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates [from agendabot]
18:27:27 <jcraig> zakim, next item
18:27:27 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:28:30 <jcraig> spectranaut_: whitespace deep dive needs to be rescheduled... afternoon so jamie teh can attend. i will reach out to mel for scheduling
18:28:33 <jcraig> zakim, next item
18:28:33 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Discussion of deprecation https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1862 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:29:05 <lola> lola has joined #aria
18:29:44 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1862#pullrequestreview-2028023050
18:30:58 <jcraig> jamesn: deprecation is not how ARIA has done things in the past.
18:31:18 <scott> q+
18:31:22 <jcraig> jamesn: deprecation could result in implementation REMOVAL which has downsides
18:31:26 <spectranaut_> ack scott
18:31:54 <sarah> q+
18:31:59 <aardrian> +1 to scott
18:32:10 <sarah> q-, +1 to deprecating
18:32:11 <jcraig> scott: agree with jamesn, deprecation has its place, but this is not it.... do not need a long tale list of deprecated features
18:32:16 <spectranaut_> ack sarah
18:32:28 <jcraig> sarah: also agree
18:33:24 <jcraig> jamesn: i understand Wilco's concern for the validator, but they should be able to manage it
18:33:40 <jcraig> zakim, next issue
18:33:40 <Zakim> I don't understand 'next issue', jcraig
18:33:45 <jcraig> zakim, next item
18:33:45 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> The content-visibility CSS property across browsers https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/243 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:35:29 <jcraig> giacomo-petri: content-visibility accessibility per role is managed differently across engines... especially content-visibility: auto;
18:35:52 <jcraig> tricky which to expose in which scenario
18:35:57 <aardrian> Q+
18:36:12 <jcraig> jcraig: deep dive topic?
18:36:20 <spectranaut_> ack aardrian
18:36:56 <jcraig> aardrian: question... if it's hidden from a engine ax tree, does it also not participate in accname?
18:37:28 <spectranaut_> q+
18:37:41 <scott> q+
18:37:54 <jcraig> giacomo-petri: ambiguous what to do, but webkit behavior is different from gecko/chromium
18:38:04 <jcraig> spectranaut_: wpt test?
18:38:18 <spectranaut_> ack scott
18:38:38 <smockle> scribe+ smockle
18:38:51 <smockle> q?
18:38:59 <siri> siri has joined #aria
18:39:07 <spectranaut_> ack spectranaut_
18:39:10 <spectranaut_> q+ scott
18:39:46 <Rahim> q+
18:39:56 <smockle> jcraig: You’re saying `content-visibility` (particularly `auto`) is ambiguous; are differences a bug (e.g. in Webkit)?
18:40:20 <smockle> giacomo-petri: I’m not saying one implementation is wrong; only noting inconsistency.
18:40:43 <smockle> giacomo-petri: Testing is challenging because `content-visibility` behavior is viewport-size-dependent.
18:41:49 <spectranaut_> ack scott
18:41:50 <smockle> jcraig: We don’t know the window size. So, instead, we could test a fixed-size (e.g. 100px) scrollable div—and we could know how many items to expect in it.
18:43:07 <smockle> scott: Anecdotally, this has come up twice: Once with OpenUI re: an `aria-expanded` toggle button. Once at Microsoft, where there was confusion about whether hidden content is `display: none`.
18:43:11 <jcraig> q+
18:43:22 <spectranaut_> ack Rahim
18:43:27 <jcraig> q+ to ask how it works with non-AT in-page search
18:43:33 <katez> katez has joined #aria
18:43:38 <smockle> Rahim: Can we add a CSS-AAM label to this issue?
18:44:21 <smockle> spectranaut_: This issue should be moved out of the core-aam repo.
18:44:22 <spectranaut_> ack Rahim
18:44:28 <jcraig> ack me
18:44:28 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to ask how it works with non-AT in-page search
18:45:11 <spectranaut_> new issue link: https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/572
18:45:29 <smockle> jcraig: Does the spec say in-page search should find elements hidden with `content-visibility`?
18:45:53 <smockle> jnurthen: Yes, it does.
18:46:34 <scott> q+
18:46:47 <smockle> jcraig: Because all of these, including `content-visibility: hidden`, show up to in-page search, they should also show up to AT.
18:46:54 <aardrian> +1
18:47:25 <giacomo-petri> q+ to reference https://www.w3.org/TR/css-contain-2/#using-cv-hidden
18:47:25 <giacomo-petri> content-visibility: hidden improves on both of these options. Because the contents are skipped, the user agent isn’t spending time on them when they’re not active. They’re also not visible to screen readers, find-in-page, and other tools. And because user agents should preserve previous styling/layout work if possible, if the view was
18:47:25 <giacomo-petri> displayed before, re-rendering it might be very fast.
18:47:35 <spectranaut_> ack scott
18:47:35 <jcraig> q?
18:48:15 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #aria
18:49:28 <jcraig> q+
18:49:39 <smockle> scott: The `<details>` element in the collapsed state uses a version of `content-visibility: hidden`, so content is removed from the accessibility tree and visually hidden while remaining findable by in-page search. We don’t want to break find-in-page or start showing content in the accessibility tree that is supposed to be hidden.
18:49:50 <jcraig> q?
18:49:57 <spectranaut_> ack giacomo-petri
18:49:57 <Zakim> giacomo-petri, you wanted to reference https://www.w3.org/TR/css-contain-2/#using-cv-hidden
18:51:02 <smockle> giacomo-petri: Does the CSS Containment Module  Level 2 (linked above) contradict what we’ve been saying?
18:51:21 <smockle> jnurthen: Which value—`hidden` or `auto`?
18:51:28 <smockle> giacomo-petri: `hidden`.
18:51:36 <spectranaut_> ack jcraig
18:51:44 <jcraig> q+ to state maybe there is an ARIA-AT like expectation here too for <details>; if it should be hidden but found in search, it should be for aT search too
18:51:47 <jcraig> ack me
18:51:47 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to state maybe there is an ARIA-AT like expectation here too for <details>; if it should be hidden but found in search, it should be for aT search too
18:52:34 <scott> scott has joined #aria
18:52:52 <smockle> jcraig: If the expectation is that `<details>` is visually hidden but findable by browser in-page search, then it should also be findable by AT search. `content-visibility: auto` should be findable by (e.g.) skip-to-next-heading.
18:53:25 <smockle> spectranaut_: This is a good place to stop this conversation, and we can pick it up again in a deep dive.
18:54:20 <smockle> spectranaut_: We’ll have a deep dive on January 23rd.
18:54:34 <smockle> .zakim next item
18:54:42 <jcraig> zakim, next item
18:54:42 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- -> [accname] Explicitly state UAs must ignore “aria-label” for slots https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2385 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:55:38 <jcraig> spectranaut_: gentle ping for keith
18:55:49 <smockle> Keith: I’ll review it
18:55:51 <jcraig> keith: i will review. apologies.
18:55:53 <sarah> present+
18:58:12 <jcraig> zakim, end meeting
18:58:12 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Rahim, Adam_Page, pkra, katez, giacomo-petri, Daniel, aardrian, smockle, filippo-zorzi, StefanS, sarah
18:58:14 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
18:58:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/09-aria-minutes.html Zakim
18:58:22 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jcraig; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:58:23 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
18:58:24 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:58:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/09-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:59:00 <jcraig> chair: spectranaut_
18:59:02 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:59:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/09-aria-minutes.html jcraig
19:00:16 <jcraig> s/keith: i will review. apologies.//
19:00:47 <jcraig> s/spectranaut_: gentle ping for keith/spectranaut_: reminder we need to review this./
19:00:51 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
19:00:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/09-aria-minutes.html jcraig
19:01:14 <jcraig> s/.zakim next item//
19:01:27 <jcraig> s/zakkim, next item//
19:01:31 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
19:01:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/09-aria-minutes.html jcraig
19:13:50 <jcraig> present+ lola ray-schwartz bryan jcraig aaronlev keithamus
19:14:11 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
19:14:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/09-aria-minutes.html jcraig
19:17:10 <jcraig> present- lola ray-schwartz bryan jcraig aaronlev keithamus
19:17:23 <jcraig> present+ lola, ray-schwartz, bryan, jcraig, aaronlev, keithamus
19:17:34 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
19:17:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/09-aria-minutes.html jcraig
19:19:07 <jcraig> present+ spectranaut_, jamesn
19:19:09 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
19:19:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/09-aria-minutes.html jcraig