20:03:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-at
20:03:14 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/01/09-aria-at-irc
20:03:14 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
20:03:15 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike
20:03:15 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
20:03:18 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
20:03:27 <Joe_Humbert> present+
20:03:31 <jugglinmike> meeting: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group Weekly Teleconference
20:04:20 <mmoss> present+
20:04:32 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria-at
20:04:37 <howard-e> present+
20:04:53 <jugglinmike> Topic: Review agenda and next meeting dates
20:05:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: any requests for changes to the agenda?
20:05:18 <ChrisCuellar> present+
20:05:29 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I have a question about a specific test plan
20:05:44 <jugglinmike> mmoss: It's disclosure navigation menu
20:05:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Got it; we can add it to the agenda
20:06:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next AT Driver Subgroup meeting: Monday January 13
20:06:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: No meeting Wednesday January 15
20:06:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next Community Group Meeting: Thursday January 23
20:07:03 <jugglinmike> Topic: Current status
20:08:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Currently, in the app, in the test queue, we have some conflicts in the "link example 2" results
20:08:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It looks like only one person has tested "link example 3" so far
20:08:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'd like to review those conflicts with "link example 2" and see if they're something simple that we can address today
20:09:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We're done with VoiceOver and JAWS for "link example 2"; we have only NVDA remaining
20:09:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have two conflicts
20:10:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In test 2, it looks like Dean's  output is completely different from Luke's
20:10:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Did this output come from the bot?
20:11:53 <jugglinmike> present+ dean
20:12:10 <jugglinmike> dean: It's been so long since I ran this that I'd have to do this again to see what went wrong
20:12:40 <jugglinmike> dean: It doesn't look like something I would write, though
20:12:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If you could re-run this, that would be the best thing right now
20:12:54 <jugglinmike> dean: Will do
20:13:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think we may want to allow testers to run the bot
20:13:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: And further, I think we may want to be able to run for just a single test
20:14:22 <jugglinmike> howard-e: That's possible. Off-the-cuff, though, I don't know what the level of effort would be for such a change
20:14:41 <jugglinmike> s/possible/not currently possible, but it's something we could implement/
20:15:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In "link example 3", it looks like there's bot output, and the output hasn't been evaluated, yet
20:17:25 <jugglinmike> dean: I'm afraid I can't complete those tests right now because I don't have an "insert" key
20:18:11 <jugglinmike> michaelfairchild: There are a couple things you can do. You can plug in a Windows keyboard, or you could remap keys using specialized software
20:18:13 <jugglinmike> present+ michaelfairchild
20:18:21 <jugglinmike> dean: Got it!
20:18:46 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: You should also be able to remap NVDA to not use "insert". I think you can use "Caps Lock", instead
20:18:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's true, but as much as possible, we're trying to use the default settings
20:19:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Now, for the "radio" test plan
20:19:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have people assigned, but it doesn't look like any testing has occurred, yet
20:19:44 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I'm assigned to both NVDA and VoiceOver for that test plan
20:20:04 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I stopped because I ran into an issue where pressing the "run test setup" button causes an "h3" to disappear in test 1
20:20:17 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I wasn't sure if that was valid, so I paused because I didn't want the test results to be thrown out
20:20:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I believe that is intentional. James did that on purpose to create a specific state
20:20:53 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Understood. I can continue on with the testing
20:22:03 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: There might have been an issue, though, because I think something failed. I think it was removing part of a label... I'll double-check offline and report back later
20:22:22 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I think the heading was used for a group name, and since the heading is "display: none", it no longer announces it
20:22:47 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Like I said, I'd like to double check, but that's my recollection of the behavior I was observing
20:24:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: thank you!
20:24:19 <jugglinmike> Topic: Issue 1171 - VO Bot output has extra spaces
20:24:26 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/1171
20:24:53 <jugglinmike> scribe+ ChrisCuellar
20:25:32 <ChrisCuellar> jugglinmike: The issue Joe raise is about how the output he reported varies in subtle ways from the VO bot. Based on the use of spaces and new lines
20:26:21 <ChrisCuellar> jugglinmike: I wanted to bring this to the fuller group to understand how the bot should behave. I don't know what the significance of new lines and spaces are. Maybe we all could define some heuristic together
20:27:32 <ChrisCuellar> jugglinmike: For example, if you look at the example, should we consider 2 responses that look mostly the same as the same response. This might be an issue for 2 different human reporters too, so that might not be just a bot issue.
20:29:01 <ChrisCuellar> Matt_King: It's important to distinguish if outputs change over time and across AT version. The other time this matters is when we're display the output (for example in the test runner, etc). So if we're doing normalization, there's some interesting consequences if we normalize input into a text box in a certain way.
20:29:56 <ChrisCuellar> jugglinmike: I was thinking about displaying what people actually type. But also for the sake of transparency, but also surfacing a normalized version. So that testers can compare their raw output vs the normalized output.
20:30:40 <ChrisCuellar> Matt_King: Maybe anything that's a report, we always show the normalized output. But we can always make the raw human input also available. But for the runner, we shouldn't do normalization.
20:31:14 <ChrisCuellar> Matt_King: Is there a decision we need to make about what we ask testers to do? We might not to, if we agree on a normalization algorithm.
20:32:55 <ChrisCuellar> jugglinmike: I think so. This came up in internal conversations. Maybe we set the rule to match what's in the voiceover history. But I don't know what exactly the VO rules are for how they render text output. And I'm not sure Apple can commit to stable output either. So I wouldn't want to lead with that.
20:33:22 <ChrisCuellar> jugglinmike: Bocoup can put together a proposal for this. We'll take this as an action item
20:34:16 <ChrisCuellar> Joe_Humbert: I filed another issue about radio buttons. There's an issue with a disappearing header making the requested command incorrect
20:34:27 <ChrisCuellar> Matt_King: This is a problem. We can't have the tests mismatch
20:35:29 <ChrisCuellar> Joe_Humbert: Back to the extra space, it makes it difficult for me to edit the output if there's unnecessary new lines and trailing spaces. Like 50-60 trailing spaces between new lines.
20:35:45 <ChrisCuellar> Joe_Humbert: This wasn't visually rendered on Github
20:35:59 <ChrisCuellar> Joe_Humbert: The problem seems to be somewhat random
20:36:20 <ChrisCuellar> jugglinmike: I think we can still move forward with a normalization solution
20:36:51 <ChrisCuellar> scribe+ jugglinmike
20:37:05 <ChrisCuellar> Thanks jugglinmike !
20:39:16 <jugglinmike> Topic: Disclosure issue
20:39:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Sorry, mmoss, we're out of time for today. Can you file an issue about this? Then we can follow up in the next CG meeting
20:39:47 <jugglinmike> mmoss: Absolutely
20:39:53 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
20:39:53 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, Joe_Humbert, mmoss, howard-e, ChrisCuellar, dean, michaelfairchild
20:39:55 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
20:39:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/09-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
20:40:03 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
20:40:03 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-at
20:40:25 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
20:40:25 <RRSAgent> I see no action items