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14:40:00 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/01/07-pwe-irc
14:40:06 <tzviya> Meeting: PWE
14:40:14 <tzviya> Chairs: Tzviya, Wendy
14:40:24 <tzviya> Date: 2025-01-07
15:00:09 <wendyreid> wendyreid has joined #pwe
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15:01:12 <JenStrickland> present+
15:01:39 <wendyreid> present+
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15:02:16 <dbooth> rrsagent, pointer?
15:02:16 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2025/01/07-pwe-irc#T15-02-16
15:02:32 <dbooth> rrsagent, make logs public
15:02:34 <cwilso> present+
15:02:41 <tzviya> zakim, start the meeting
15:02:41 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:02:43 <Zakim> Meeting: Positive Work Environment CG
15:02:43 <dbooth> present+
15:04:49 <Ralph> scribe+
15:05:28 <Ralph> present: CWilso, Tzviya, WendyReid, JenStrickland,DBooth,SheilaMoussavi,Ralph
15:05:31 <sheila> sheila has joined #pwe
15:05:57 <Ralph> topic: Ombuds Program
15:06:24 <Ralph> Sheila: I have a meeting with Catrina, Seth's Chief of Staff, right after this
15:07:09 <Ralph> Tzviya: we'll take the documents that have been sitting in GitHub for a long time and write an escalation path when Ombuds are not available
15:07:16 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/about/positive-work-environment/
15:07:22 <Ralph> ... we have things in several places now'
15:07:40 <Ralph> ... PLH recommended the PWE landing page ^^
15:08:08 <Ralph> ... that page has a link to a procedures document
15:08:21 <Ralph> ... we'll eliminate this page and move the procedures information to /Guide
15:08:45 <Ralph> ... we'll be able to update /Guide via GitHub
15:08:46 <dbooth> q+ to ask about "the guide"
15:09:16 <Ralph> ... if this group has consensus about what should go into /Guide, PLH feels it unlikely that the Team will revise our consensus
15:09:39 <Ralph> ... my inclination is to have education and training in our repo
15:09:52 <Ralph> ... feedback about the CoC doesn't belong here; it is already in GitHub
15:10:03 <tzviya> q?
15:10:04 <tzviya> ack dbooth
15:10:04 <Zakim> dbooth, you wanted to ask about "the guide"
15:10:15 <dbooth> Is this what you mean by "the guide" https://www.w3.org/Guide/ ?
15:10:21 <Ralph> David: do you mean ^^
15:10:24 <Ralph> Tzviya: yes
15:10:39 <Ralph> ... PLH is working on consolidating things there
15:11:00 <Ralph> David: that document is mostly an organization of links right now
15:11:01 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/Guide/
15:11:12 <Ralph> ... it seems reasonably well organized as a collection of links
15:11:18 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/Guide/
15:11:20 <Ralph> ... are you expecting to add content as well?
15:11:23 <Ralph> Tzviya: it has both
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15:12:11 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'please draft meetings', Ralph.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:12:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/07-pwe-minutes.html Ralph
15:12:26 <Ralph> ... we could highlight CoC more
15:12:39 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/Guide/process/suspension.html
15:13:02 <Ralph> ... we would have Procedures as a sublink
15:13:14 <amy> present+
15:13:26 <Ralph> ... it would live in the GitHub repo for /Guide and therefore be easier for us to update
15:13:48 <tzviya> q?
15:14:09 <Ralph> ... we'll rewrite and relocate the procedures page
15:14:17 <dbooth> q+ for more clarification
15:14:21 <Ralph> ... then rewrite it again when we have Ombuds
15:14:40 <Ralph> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pwe/2025Jan/0000.html
15:14:55 <Ralph> ... there will be other materials we can add; e.g. Incident Resolution
15:14:56 <tzviya> ack dbooth
15:14:56 <Zakim> dbooth, you wanted to discuss more clarification
15:15:10 <Ralph> David: are we talking about merging incident resolution into the 'suspension' page?
15:15:16 <Ralph> Tzviya: no, it will be its own page
15:15:22 <Ralph> David: so there will be overlap
15:15:36 <Ralph> Tzviya: we'll work out those details, for now work on the escalation path
15:15:43 <wendyreid> q+
15:15:55 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
15:16:08 <Ralph> Wendy: there's desire to revise /Guide in general
15:16:26 <Ralph> ... it is organized but still hard to find something you're looking for
15:16:42 <JenStrickland> q+
15:17:14 <tzviya> ack JenStrickland
15:17:16 <Ralph> i|Date: 2025|-> https://www.w3.org/2024/12/10-pwe-minutes.html previous 10-Dec|
15:17:25 <Ralph> ... we'll work with Team on that
15:17:36 <Ralph> Jen: do we have a list of what kinds of things can go into /Guide?
15:17:39 <amy> q+ to recommend limiting expansion of guide right now
15:18:18 <Ralph> Tzviya: as of now we're working on escalation aka Incident Resolution
15:18:39 <Ralph> ... Sheila and Catrina will let us know in the future what to document regarding Ombuds
15:19:00 <tzviya> ack amy
15:19:00 <Zakim> amy, you wanted to recommend limiting expansion of guide right now
15:19:06 <amy> right now it is Guide -> Running a Group ->-> (subsection) People management ->
15:19:08 <Ralph> ... for the short term it's the incident resolution document and possibly editing the suspension document based on what we conclude for incident resolution
15:19:51 <Ralph> Amy: let's address what comes under Code of Conduct and the procedures; let's focus there
15:20:11 <Ralph> ... Procedures is linked from /Guide
15:20:27 <Ralph> Tzviya: yes, but PLH wants to pull these strings into /Guide
15:21:18 <Ralph> Amy: please include the Team
15:21:21 <Ralph> Tzviya: sure
15:21:39 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/blob/main/conflict_resolution.html
15:21:55 <Ralph> Tzviya: we have ^^
15:22:09 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/about/positive-work-environment/#Procedures
15:22:23 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/pull/364
15:22:23 <Ralph> s/the Team/the Team, in particular Comm Team/
15:22:37 <Ralph> ... we have a lot of material to work from
15:23:04 <Ralph> ... these documents currently all assume the existence of ombuds; our task now is to create versions that do not rely on ombuds
15:23:16 <Ralph> ... in particular, look at escalation
15:23:35 <Ralph> ... how can we make a functional path of escalation?
15:23:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/07-pwe-minutes.html Ralph
15:24:03 <sheila> q+
15:24:06 <Ralph> ... example: a participant in a WG has an issue with the chair; to whom do they go?
15:24:18 <tzviya> ack sheila
15:24:28 <Ralph> ... what can we document that is not "go straight to the CEO"?
15:24:42 <Ralph> Sheila: it should be someone on the Team before the CEO
15:24:48 <tzviya> q+ to ask about existing ombuds
15:25:14 <amy> + to  mention good and bad ideas for escalation including: option to reach out to more than one person, possibly a list (are there ways this can be a not bad idea?); i wonder about chair/team contact/area lead
15:25:21 <Ralph> ... someone who works closely with the CEO but is not in a position to ban someone from the Consortium but who could escalate if needed
15:25:22 <tzviya> ack me
15:25:22 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask about existing ombuds
15:25:32 <Ralph> Tzviya: we have some Ombuds listed
15:25:41 <tzviya> q+ amy
15:25:42 <Ralph> ... do they have training
15:25:54 <dbooth> ralph: We have not had any formal training for current ombuds.
15:25:55 <Ralph> s/ing/ing?/
15:25:55 <tzviya> ack amy
15:26:39 <Ralph> Amy: I've heard that if an issue only goes to one person they can get stuck
15:26:54 <Ralph> ... and little accountability
15:27:08 <Ralph> ... including Catrina is a good idea if it's a message to Seth
15:27:47 <Ralph> ... but including an archived list could be bad; we don't want personal details there
15:28:28 <Ralph> [the ombuds@w3.org alias is a set of people, and not archived]
15:28:51 <Ralph> ... could things go to the Team Contact [of the WG] and to an area lead?
15:29:07 <Ralph> ... to keep it from being funneled to just one person without followup
15:29:14 <sheila> q+
15:29:19 <tzviya> ack sheila
15:29:24 <dbooth> Including the area lead sounds like a good idea to me.
15:29:42 <Ralph> Sheila: I'm wary of using the ombuds@ email before there is training set up
15:29:44 <tzviya> +1
15:29:50 <Ralph> ... I'd rather start fresh
15:29:56 <amy> I also wonder about some kind of training. even something like non-violent communication that team or others could take
15:30:01 <amy> +1 to "and/or"
15:30:05 <Ralph> ... I think and/or rather than just and is good
15:30:09 <dbooth> +1 to and/or
15:30:28 <Ralph> ... having a few options of people to go to; good practice to document multiple possibilities
15:30:48 <JenStrickland> q+
15:31:14 <Ralph> ... a rational next step could be if the chair doesn't engage, the chairs of the PWE CG could be a backup
15:31:19 <amy> +1 to Chairs and I might add in some TF - as Sheila just mentioned, those who have some training
15:31:38 <Ralph> ... and there's also access to the CEO if further escalation is needed
15:31:41 <tzviya> ack JenStrickland
15:32:00 <amy> q+ to echo PWE idea from Shiela with option for Chairs+TF training?
15:32:31 <Ralph> Jen: any of us in PWE could receive training too
15:32:40 <tzviya> q+ to mention liability (sorry)
15:33:42 <Ralph> ... in the work we've been doing we have ability to be neutral, see the big picture, genuinely want to help
15:33:55 <Ralph> ... make sure we all get training when the training is ready
15:34:05 <Ralph> ... I'd love to see more international people involved in PWE
15:34:38 <Ralph> ... I can make some recommendations
15:35:13 <dbooth> q+ to say I think we have an obligation to have the current ombuds somewhere in any interim escalation path, because that's the guidance we've been giving and will be giving when the ombud program is in place.
15:35:15 <tzviya> ack amy
15:35:15 <Zakim> amy, you wanted to echo PWE idea from Shiela with option for Chairs+TF training?
15:36:19 <dbooth> +1 to amy's suggestion for training
15:36:20 <Ralph> Amy: if we see a change to the procedures as an interim step and we create guidelines it would be good to make training available for interested people to
15:36:38 <Ralph> ... maybe it's open to chairs
15:36:44 <Ralph> s/people to/people/
15:36:58 <tzviya> ack me
15:36:58 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to mention liability (sorry)
15:37:00 <Ralph> ... anyone identified in procedures should have training
15:37:08 <Ralph> Tzviya: +1; that's an important point
15:37:22 <Ralph> ... I also wanted to point out liability considerations
15:37:57 <Ralph> ... these are questions that need to be discussed with Christine
15:38:00 <amy> +1 to including Christine for questions of training etc
15:38:21 <Ralph> ... the PWE CG has 40+ "members"; not everyone in the CG can be trained
15:38:47 <tzviya> ack dbooth
15:38:47 <Zakim> dbooth, you wanted to say I think we have an obligation to have the current ombuds somewhere in any interim escalation path, because that's the guidance we've been giving and will
15:38:50 <Zakim> ... be giving when the ombud program is in place.
15:38:53 <Ralph> ... we need to be careful about who is named in our interim process
15:39:30 <Ralph> David: given that the guidance thus far has included mention of ombuds, I think it is important that the interim process include mention of current ombuds
15:39:35 <tzviya> ack Ralph
15:39:38 <Ralph> Tzviya: I don't think so
15:40:50 <Ralph> Ralph: we need to revisit the list
15:41:05 <amy> i would recommend we not label anyone as a kind of interim ombudsman. we had at MIT different levels of duty for reporting. there was a term "Responsible Employee obligation" for which one had to be trained
15:41:30 <Ralph> Tzviya: we can have multiple options on where to escalate
15:41:38 <amy> eg: https://idhr.mit.edu/education/pshtraining
15:41:49 <Ralph> ... I'm soliciting ideas; we'll do some drafting on how to move forward
15:41:54 <sheila> q+
15:41:59 <tzviya> ack sheila
15:42:08 <Ralph> ... we had concepts such as mediation and I don't think we're ready fo rthat
15:42:15 <Ralph> s/fo rt/for t/
15:42:30 <Ralph> Sheila: I think the next step is to learn Catrina's expectations
15:42:45 <Ralph> ... beyond that, who makes the most sense among the options
15:43:17 <Ralph> ... once we have the ombuds program we can add other escalation possibilities
15:43:21 <Ralph> ... simpler is better at this stage
15:43:33 <amy> q+ to wonder if we should invite Christine to our next meeting to ask some of these questions
15:43:37 <JenStrickland> Can it be you, Sheila? :)
15:43:39 <dbooth> +1 for simple
15:44:31 <JenStrickland> who is for accessibility?
15:44:38 <Ralph> Amy: we have Team Contacts for each Group
15:44:42 <amy>  https://www.w3.org/staff/
15:44:48 <Ralph> ... if you look at the staff list you see more nuance
15:45:49 <amy> q-
15:45:52 <tzviya> ack Ralph
15:46:54 <dbooth> ralph: There are different sets of responsibilities.  If an issue involves a team member, different criteria may determine who to contact.   Don't expect tech people to be involved with this kind of issues.
15:47:12 <dbooth> I need to drop.  Thanks all!
15:47:34 <Ralph> s/expect tech people/necessarily expect those people identified with specific technical areas
15:47:43 <sheila> +1 to this idea
15:48:03 <Ralph> Tzviya: it's possible that Christine and Catrina might be resources
15:48:20 <Ralph> ... we need an interim process, may be short-term
15:48:24 <sheila> (Christine and/or Catrina I mean)
15:48:31 <Ralph> ... we can write the shell of a document without names
15:48:57 <Ralph> ... it's going to be more work to write this document as we don't yet have a clear path
15:49:02 <amy> +1 to help
15:49:03 <Ralph> Sheila: I'm happy to help
15:49:09 <Ralph> Tzviya: thank you very much
15:49:44 <Ralph> Amy: are there other reactions to reporting to a list or an alias?
15:49:57 <tzviya> ack Ralph
15:50:14 <sheila> q+
15:51:29 <tzviya> q+
15:51:51 <tzviya> ack sheila
15:52:04 <Ralph> Ralph: both cases are important: an alias that goes to a set of responsible people as well as an enumeration of who is on that list so that an individual can be contacted
15:52:20 <Ralph> Sheila: I feel strongly there should be an alias that allows everything to be tracked
15:52:40 <Ralph> ... in the interim, in the absence of a clear process, it could be more dangerous to have that
15:52:50 <amy> +1 to Shiela's nuance for short term no, long term absolutely
15:52:51 <Ralph> ... so no in the short term but longer-term absolutely
15:52:59 <Ralph> ... in the interim, one-to-one communcation
15:53:11 <amy> s/Shiela/Sheila
15:53:14 <Ralph> ... in the long term there needs to be a secure place where everything goes
15:53:15 <tzviya> ack me
15:53:17 <Ralph> Tzviya: +1
15:53:27 <Ralph> ... we have to figure out the archiving
15:54:04 <amy> I appreciate Tzviya's long term thinking for tracking
15:54:41 <Ralph> ... we need training
15:54:55 <Ralph> ... the majority of our issues are about deescalation
15:56:17 <tzviya> ack Ralph
15:58:04 <Ralph> Tzviya: thanks; we're adjourned
15:58:09 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
15:58:09 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been CWilso, Tzviya, WendyReid, JenStrickland, DBooth, SheilaMoussavi, Ralph, amy
15:58:11 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
15:58:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/07-pwe-minutes.html Zakim
15:58:18 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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