14:44:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
14:44:17 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/12/19-i18n-irc
14:44:25 <addison> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
14:44:35 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/b7edae68-f52c-4aab-a1a6-3c37459e0786/20241219T150000/
14:44:35 <agendabot> clear agenda
14:44:35 <agendabot> agenda+ Agenda Review
14:44:35 <agendabot> agenda+ Action Items
14:44:37 <agendabot> agenda+ Info Share
14:44:39 <agendabot> agenda+ RADAR Review
14:44:39 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips
14:44:41 <agendabot> agenda+ Pending Issue Review
14:44:44 <agendabot> agenda+ Some WAI-ACT and MathML Core issues
14:44:46 <agendabot> agenda+ Plaintext guidance?
14:44:48 <agendabot> agenda+ AOB?
14:44:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/19-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:49:30 <addison> addison has joined #i18n
14:56:59 <addison> present+
14:59:40 <JcK> JcK has joined #i18n
15:01:51 <addison> present+ Fuqiao, JcK
15:02:32 <Bert> present+
15:02:58 <Bert> scribe+
15:03:31 <addison> regrets+ Richard
15:03:52 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 1
15:03:52 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:03:54 <addison> agenda?
15:04:23 <addison> zakim, WASM
15:04:23 <Zakim> I don't understand 'WASM', addison
15:04:31 <addison> agenda+ WASM
15:04:46 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 2
15:04:46 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:04:59 <addison> #150
15:05:03 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/150 -> Action 150  add string-search to i18n-editors and get an echidna token (on xfq) due 2024-12-19
15:06:01 <Bert> xfq: Needs a first publication before. I'll get that. But publ moratorium until next year.
15:06:10 <addison> action: fuqiao: request FPWD of string-search
15:06:17 <gb> Cannot create action. Validation failed. Maybe fuqiao is not a valid user for w3c/i18n-actions?
15:06:19 <Bert> s/publ/publication
15:06:24 <addison> action: xfq: request FPWD of string-search
15:06:26 <gb> Created -> action #152 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/152
15:06:32 <addison> #149
15:06:32 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/149 -> Action 149  add a banner to string-search (on aphillips) due 2024-12-19
15:06:38 <addison> close #149
15:06:40 <gb> Closed -> issue #149 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/149
15:06:45 <addison> #148
15:06:46 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/148 -> Action 148  propose specdev text related to design-principles#464 discussion (on aphillips) due 2024-12-12
15:06:48 <addison> #147
15:06:49 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/147 -> Action 147 Follow up on normativity warnings about glossary (on aphillips)
15:06:54 <addison> #145
15:06:55 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/145 -> Action 145  publish timezone for wide review (on aphillips) due 2024-11-28
15:07:04 <addison> close #145
15:07:05 <gb> Closed -> issue #145 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/145
15:07:09 <addison> #143
15:07:10 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/143 -> Action 143  make comments on the encoding issue attached to i18n-activity#1940 (on aphillips) due 2024-11-28
15:07:22 <addison> #135
15:07:22 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/135 -> Action 135  follow up on XR issue 1393 about locale in session (on aphillips) due 2024-10-17
15:07:28 <addison> #127
15:07:28 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/127 -> Action 127  make a list of shared topics of interest between TG2 and W3C-I18N (on aphillips) due 2024-09-30
15:07:44 <addison> #89
15:07:44 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/89 -> Action 89  update i18n specs to support dark mode (on xfq) due 2024-04-18
15:07:51 <addison> #33
15:07:51 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips)
15:08:02 <addison> #7
15:08:02 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7 -> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github) due 18 Jul 2023
15:08:18 <addison> #4
15:08:19 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on aphillips) due 27 Jul 2023
15:08:27 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 3
15:08:27 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:09:35 <Bert> JcK: IETF working on tag registry. Looking for a reviewer.
15:10:05 <Bert> addison: I can.
15:10:34 <Bert> JcK: Review for registries and registration forms.
15:11:08 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 4
15:11:08 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:11:17 <addison> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/91/views/1
15:11:51 <Bert> addison: Incoming request for 7 VC specs.
15:12:21 <Bert> ... We reviewed them previously, they ask for a review of the changes, until February.
15:13:11 <Bert> xfq: I can review them.
15:13:57 <Bert> bert: no progress on Media Capabilities review
15:14:59 <atsushi> atsushi has joined #i18n
15:15:04 <Bert> xfq: I looked at IDN Registry Restrictions.
15:15:17 <Bert> addison: I'll move it to Completed.
15:15:29 <Bert> ... Will you write to them to say it was completed?
15:15:38 <Bert> JcK: Please copy me
15:16:20 <Bert> addison: I'm working in WeCodecs
15:16:29 <addison> agenda?
15:16:36 <Bert> s/WeCodecs/WebCodecs
15:16:41 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 6
15:16:41 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Some WAI-ACT and MathML Core issues -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:17:09 <addison> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2024Dec/0000.html
15:18:18 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/issues/573
15:18:18 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/issues/573 -> Issue 573 ACT does not require that the language of text is indicated (by bert-github) [i18n-needs-resolution]
15:21:36 <atsushi> atsushi has joined #i18n
15:21:57 <Bert> addison: Should have a general ote about the need for language metadata.
15:22:06 <Bert> Bert: OK, will ask for that.
15:22:36 <addison> also should note that the description should be localizable/able to appear in more than one language. can be just a note
15:22:40 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/issues/572
15:22:40 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/issues/572 -> Issue 572 How are rule identifiers matched to one another? (by bert-github) [i18n-needs-resolution]
15:22:49 <xfq> s/general ote/general note
15:22:54 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes
15:22:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/19-i18n-minutes.html xfq
15:23:12 <xfq> present+ atsushi
15:24:04 <Bert> addison: They say *must* be unique. So maybe pooit to charmod-norm
15:24:28 <xfq> s/pooit/point/
15:24:31 <Bert> Bert: OK, I will tell them.
15:24:39 <addison> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2024Dec/0001.html
15:27:05 <Bert> addison: Names have been there for a long time, haven't they? Maybe intorduce logical names later and dprecate these?
15:27:23 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 9
15:27:23 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- WASM -- taken up [from addison]
15:27:26 <Bert> ... There is a PR to address the issue.
15:27:39 <xfq> https://github.com/WebAssembly/spec/issues/1843
15:27:40 <gb> https://github.com/WebAssembly/spec/issues/1843 -> Issue 1843 Unicode identifiers in the WAT format (by xfq) [i18n-needs-resolution]
15:27:59 <Bert> xfq: Issue I raised in November.
15:28:22 <Bert> ... They support arbitrary Unicode in identifiers via escaping
15:28:36 <Bert> ... I asked why not use the characters directly.
15:29:04 <Bert> ... Their answer is that they support identifiers with quotes and those allow Unicode.
15:29:15 <Bert> ... But idents without quotes need escapes.
15:29:34 <Bert> ... Has to do with interchange format and resource constraints.
15:29:54 <Bert> addison: Unicode identifier thing is complicated.
15:30:24 <Bert> ... Another approach is XMLNames, i.e., a list of characters allowed.
15:30:36 <Bert> ... That's the approach in MessageFormat2.
15:30:50 <Bert> ... There is a list of chars. The list may be crappy.
15:31:02 <Bert> ... But in the real world it is not so bad.
15:31:19 <Bert> JcK: As long as there no politics involved.
15:31:36 <Bert> addison: Relatively simple to implement.
15:31:51 <Bert> ... That approach would be my suggestion.
15:32:10 <Bert> ... If you have to escape it, it is not very readable so not very useful in the source.
15:32:41 <Bert> xfq: You can use the chars if you put quote marks around.
15:33:00 <Bert> xfq: Seems good enough.
15:33:14 <Bert> ... They quoted UX31.
15:33:35 <Bert> addison: Quotes do not solve the problem of matching identifiers.
15:34:25 <xfq> s/UX31/UAX31
15:34:50 <addison> > The burden would be on all tools processing the Wasm text format, and is unlikely to get implemented on all, causing fragmentation. In contrast, to understand quoted identifiers, tools merely need to implement UTF-8 decoding, which is a few lines of code.
15:35:02 <Bert> addison: I disagree with some of what rossberg wrote in the issue: ^^
15:35:19 <Bert> ... If you describe correctly how to parse the ting, the rules can be clear.
15:35:36 <Bert> ... They don't want to implement the Unicode identifier thing.
15:35:55 <Bert> ... It doesn't have to be hard to implement.
15:36:30 <Bert> ... So shall we accept, because they allow quoted identifiers?
15:37:14 <Bert> JcK: I have no solution, but I hear many variations of the discussion.
15:37:36 <xfq> https://www.w3.org/TR/wasm-core-2/
15:38:04 <Bert> xfq: Seems they have published a CR already.
15:38:31 <xfq> https://www.w3.org/TR/2024/CR-wasm-core-2-20241217/
15:38:46 <addison> https://www.w3.org/PM/horizontal/#WebAssembly%20Core
15:39:44 <Bert> addison: Should not happen while issues are still open.
15:40:03 <addison> action: addison: ask PLH what happened with wasm-2 CR since we have an issue open
15:40:04 <gb> Created -> action #153 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/153
15:41:25 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes
15:41:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/19-i18n-minutes.html xfq
15:41:33 <addison> #define "non-ascii"   vs.  #define ascii
15:41:39 <Bert> JcK: Makes no sense to have an identifier in quotes.
15:42:24 <Bert> addison: So they say if you have a non-ascii ident, you'll have to quote it, or escape.
15:42:57 <xfq> s/the ting/the thing
15:42:59 <addison> here's how MF2 solves it: https://github.com/unicode-org/message-format-wg/blob/a19b3df18c3802bd13c1dde077efd29a95339e7a/spec/message.abnf#L53-L65
15:43:27 <Bert> xfq: What do you say about matching identifers?
15:43:50 <Bert> addison: Once you allow non-ascii in idents, you'll have to define matching.
15:44:01 <Bert> ... I don't know if they defined that in the spec.
15:44:45 <Bert> atsushi: Only little-endian, so no byte-encoding issues.
15:45:07 <Bert> ... But wondering about escaping and presentation forms.
15:46:31 <Bert> addison: A smart editor could show the character and escape it only on writing the file. A dumb editor would show the escape.
15:47:47 <Bert> atsushi: Don't think we can require that from an editor.
15:48:36 <Bert> atsushi: Depends on how much we want to make things safe.
15:49:17 <Bert> addison: We want to make the world more friendly for non-ascii stuff.
15:50:42 <Bert> atsushi: We can ask them to write about possibility of editors or systems to handle escaping.
15:51:39 <Bert> q+ to agree that quoting is an acceptable solution.
15:51:59 <Bert> addison: Their identifiers can contain almost anything.
15:52:39 <addison> ack next
15:52:40 <Zakim> Bert, you wanted to agree that quoting is an acceptable solution.
15:52:57 <addison> bert: let it go? the quoting solution is acceptable. we do the same in css in some places
15:53:04 <xfq> scribe+ addison
15:53:08 <addison> ... if whitespace is in the way, then you quote stuff
15:53:29 <Bert> bert: I'd say quoting is an acceptable solution.
15:53:46 <addison> agenda?
15:53:47 <Bert> addison: I will write to plh to talk about the puvlication wghile an issue is still open,
15:53:59 <Bert> ... but I also propose to close the issue.
15:54:20 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes
15:54:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/19-i18n-minutes.html xfq
15:54:55 <Bert> JcK: Rule-based identifiers generally require the XML names.
15:55:01 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 7
15:55:01 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- Plaintext guidance? -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:55:02 <Bert> addison: It is not that simple...
15:55:09 <addison> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/10871
15:55:10 <gb> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/10871 -> Issue 10871 Undeprecate <plaintext>, it is needed for portable text files (by safinaskar) [i18n-tracker]
15:56:06 <Bert> addison: Somebody proposed to bring back the <plaintext> tag in HTML.
15:56:22 <Bert> ... Maybe not a good idea.
15:59:12 <Bert> ... If you add tags before the plain text, then it is not plain text anymore.
15:59:40 <Bert> xfq: MIME type?
15:59:57 <Bert> JcK: MIME types have the necessary machinery.
16:00:19 <Bert> addison: Yes, headers have a way to do this.
16:00:37 <Bert> JcK: And as you say, if you include it in the text, it is not plain text anymore.
16:01:20 <Bert> atsushi: Couldn't understand the issue.
16:02:01 <Bert> addison: E.g., to make clear that a plain text is Chinese and not Japanese, so that it displayes correctly , at least in a browser.
16:02:29 <Bert> atsushi: Can use something like innertext in JavaScript to import plain text.
16:04:15 <Bert> addison: Seems they want to pass along some metadata with plain text. And <pre> in HTML would require some escaping.
16:05:04 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 8
16:05:04 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:05:07 <Bert> ... But <plaintext> has security issues.
16:05:54 <Bert> addison: Next two telcons cancelled. Next one on Jan 9
16:06:33 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes
16:06:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/19-i18n-minutes.html xfq
16:15:49 <bigbluehat> bigbluehat has joined #i18n