17:00:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
17:00:34 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/12/12-rdf-star-irc
17:00:39 <olaf> olaf has joined #rdf-star
17:00:39 <ktk> meeting:  RDF-Star WG biweekly meeting
17:00:47 <ktk> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/600e0165-52f4-4d74-9a91-06116df06571/20241212T120000/
17:00:47 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:00:47 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2024/11/21-rdf-star-minutes.html , -> 2 https://www.w3.org/2024/12/05-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:00:47 <agendabot> agenda+ Calls during the festive break
17:00:47 <agendabot> agenda+ Prioritization of next week's topics -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/6
17:00:49 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of open actions, available at -> 4 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3
17:00:52 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at -> 5 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
17:00:52 <tl> present+
17:00:55 <agendabot> agenda+ Issue Triage, available at -> 6 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5
17:00:58 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
17:01:03 <pfps> present+
17:01:15 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF Star -- 2024-12-12 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/600e0165-52f4-4d74-9a91-06116df06571/20241212T120000/
17:01:20 <ktk> present+
17:01:25 <gtw> present+
17:01:26 <AndyS> present+
17:01:28 <niklasl> present+
17:01:29 <ktk> regrets+ Souri
17:01:44 <eBremer> eBremer has joined #rdf-star
17:01:49 <Tpt> present+
17:01:57 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
17:02:00 <james> present+
17:02:01 <eBremer> present+
17:02:01 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
17:02:03 <ora> present+
17:02:06 <ora> chair+
17:02:32 <gkellogg> present+
17:02:33 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #rdf-star
17:02:48 <TallTed> scribe+
17:02:56 <fsasaki> present+
17:02:56 <TallTed> Zakim, open item 1
17:02:56 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2024/11/21-rdf-star-minutes.html , -> 2 https://www.w3.org/2024/12/05-rdf-star-minutes.html --
17:03:00 <Zakim> ... taken up [from agendabot]
17:03:05 <olaf> present+
17:03:14 <james> q+
17:03:21 <pfps> present+
17:03:29 <ora> ack james
17:03:32 <TallTed> ora: calls for concerns with minutes of last 2 weeks...
17:03:34 <doerthe> doerthe has joined #rdf-star
17:03:42 <doerthe> present+
17:04:17 <TallTed> james: added a table ((somewhere))
17:04:40 <ora> PROPOSAL: Approve minutes of last two meetings
17:04:46 <pfps>  +1
17:04:47 <ora> +1
17:04:47 <Tpt> +1
17:04:47 <gtw> +1
17:04:48 <AndyS> +1
17:04:48 <ktk> +1
17:04:49 <eBremer> +1
17:04:49 <tl> +1
17:04:50 <fsasaki> +1
17:04:58 <doerthe> +1
17:04:58 <niklasl> +1
17:04:58 <draggett> draggett has joined #rdf-star
17:04:58 <gkellogg> +1
17:05:03 <draggett> present+
17:05:08 <TallTed> <TallTed> +1
17:05:19 <olaf> +1
17:05:21 <james> +1
17:05:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/12-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:05:33 <ora> RESOLVED: Approve minutes of last two meetings
17:05:34 <pchampin> present+
17:05:39 <ktk> Zakim, next item
17:05:39 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Calls during the festive break -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:05:44 <james> the table is here : https://github.com/w3c/sparql-update/issues/41#issuecomment-2539495141
17:05:45 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-update/issues/41 -> Issue 41 Allow dataset formats to be valid in LOAD with no INTO (by afs) [Errata] [spec:enhancement]
17:06:20 <TallTed> s|((somewhere))| https://github.com/w3c/sparql-update/issues/41#issuecomment-2539495141 |
17:06:20 <pfps> I'm ok for Jan 2
17:06:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/12-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:06:57 <TallTed> ora: planning meeting cancellations during holidays...
17:07:06 <tl> I will probably not be around next Thursday, but would be around Jan 2.
17:07:11 <olaf> I will be on vacation on Jan 2.
17:07:33 <TallTed> s|the table is here : https://github.com/w3c/sparql-update/issues/41#issuecomment-2539495141||
17:07:52 <ora> PROPOSAL: Cancel meetings of 2024-12-26 and 2025-01-02
17:07:59 <ora> +1
17:08:01 <Tpt> +1
17:08:02 <ktk> +1
17:08:03 <niklasl> +1
17:08:04 <TallTed> <TallTed> +1
17:08:05 <doerthe> +1
17:08:06 <eBremer> +1
17:08:06 <gkellogg> +1
17:08:07 <tl> +1
17:08:08 <pchampin> +1
17:08:13 <james> +1
17:08:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/12-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:08:21 <gtw> +1
17:08:21 <olaf> +1
17:08:29 <ora> RESOLVED: Cancel meetings of 2024-12-26 and 2025-01-02
17:08:29 <pfps> 0
17:08:40 <ktk> Zakim, next item
17:08:40 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Prioritization of next week's topics -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/6 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:08:58 <pfps> q+
17:09:31 <ktk> ack pfps
17:10:01 <TallTed> pfps: would like https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/56 to be discussed as soon as possible
17:10:01 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/56 -> Issue 56 semantic conditions for ground graphs damaged (by pfps) [needs discussion] [spec:bug] [spec:substantive]
17:11:19 <AndyS> q+
17:11:32 <pchampin> q+
17:11:47 <ora> ack AndyS
17:11:53 <pfps> q+
17:12:09 <pchampin> +1 to discuss the primer
17:12:15 <ora> ack pchampin
17:12:19 <niklasl> +1 sounds good
17:12:22 <TallTed> AndyS: Primer is getting lots of work. Would like to spend 20 minutes talking about that.
17:13:05 <ora> ack pfps
17:13:09 <gkellogg> w3c/rdf-concepts#60
17:13:10 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/60 -> Issue 60 Drop the requirement to support ill-typed literals with recognized datatype IRIs (by wouterbeek) [needs discussion] [spec:enhancement]
17:13:21 <TallTed> pchampin: would like to discuss https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/60
17:13:32 <TallTed> pfps: also https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/49
17:13:33 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/49 -> Issue 49 Define an interpretation of Triple Terms (by niklasl) [needs discussion]
17:14:58 <gkellogg> q+
17:15:27 <niklasl> I added the needs-discussion on the Primer PR. Enough or do we need a tracking issue too?
17:16:05 <gkellogg> w3c/rdf-star-wg#132
17:16:07 <ora> ack gkellogg
17:16:07 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/132 -> Issue 132 Turtle Grammar: Collections and blank node property lists in triple terms (by doerthe) [needs discussion]
17:16:25 <pchampin> yes, the rdf-primer repo is tracked
17:16:36 <enrico> enrico has joined #rdf-star
17:16:42 <enrico> present+
17:16:53 <TallTed> gkellogg: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/132 gets involved in a number of other things
17:17:59 <ktk> Zakim, next item
17:17:59 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Review of open actions, available at -> 4 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:18:00 <TallTed> ora: seems enough prioritization for now
17:18:34 <ktk> q?
17:19:14 <niklasl> There is https://github.com/w3c/rdf-primer/issues/14 though; it does ask for adding "quoted triples", which the PR is about.
17:19:15 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-primer/issues/14 -> Issue 14 Quoted triples not mentioned in primer (by kvistgaard) [spec:editorial]
17:20:07 <TallTed> pchampin: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/137 is in process
17:20:07 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/137 -> Action 137 work with pchampin to add labels for "defer-next-version" or similar. (on afs, pchampin) due 2024-11-28
17:20:36 <gkellogg> q+
17:20:43 <ora> ack gkellogg
17:21:13 <TallTed> gkellogg: also have "spec-enhancement". not clear difference with "substantive".
17:21:37 <TallTed> ora: where do human readable descriptions of these labels live?
17:22:03 <gkellogg> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/labels
17:22:10 <TallTed> pchampin: I should be the one editing these, so that all repos stay consistent.
17:23:33 <TallTed> ... will edit the action that works with these, and add references to class 1/2/3/4
17:24:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/12-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:24:55 <TallTed> ora: what about this "unstar" thing?
17:25:00 <pchampin> q+
17:25:04 <tl> q+
17:25:23 <niklasl> +1 to gkellogg
17:25:27 <ora> ack pchampin
17:26:16 <TallTed> ... https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/129 and https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/115
17:26:17 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/115 -> Pull Request 115 add section about 'unstar' mapping (by pchampin)
17:26:17 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/129 -> Action 129 write a PR on rdf-concepts for the unstar mapping (on pchampin) due 2024-10-01
17:26:18 <ora> ack tl
17:27:03 <ktk> Zakim, next item
17:27:03 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Review of pull requests, available at -> 5 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:27:19 <TallTed> [ discussion ... close action 129 as covered by pull 115 ]
17:27:33 <AndyS> q+
17:27:40 <ora> ack AndyS
17:28:30 <TallTed> AndyS: tiny fix (s/http/https/) to satisfy pubrules
17:30:30 <TallTed> [ conversation ... a few merges approved ]
17:31:24 <TallTed> AndyS: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/pull/53 oddly links to issue that's closed because repo was deleted
17:31:25 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/pull/53 -> CLOSED Pull Request 53 First version of semantics for triple terms (by franconi) [needs discussion] [spec:enhancement] [spec:substantive]
17:31:53 <AndyS> q+
17:32:29 <AndyS> q-
17:33:04 <TallTed> enrico: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/pull/53 was closed in favor of https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/pull/55
17:33:04 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/pull/55 -> Pull Request 55 New triple term semantics in the rdf-semantics spec (by franconi) [spec:enhancement] [spec:substantive]
17:33:34 <AndyS> https://www.w3.org/2024/11/14-rdf-star-minutes.html#8e86
17:33:55 <pchampin> q+
17:35:34 <pchampin> q-
17:36:14 <TallTed> enrico: major semantics simplification, being discussed tomorrow, should be able to bring to main group in next Thursday meeting
17:37:00 <TallTed> s/next Thursday meeting/first Thursday call after holidays/
17:37:11 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22liberal-baseline%22
17:38:46 <gkellogg> q+
17:39:30 <ora> ack gkellogg
17:39:52 <TallTed> <TallTed> PR 52 needs to be rolled back, and its claimed changes re-done as smaller PRs
17:40:48 <TallTed> gkellogg: I fear that rolling it back and re-executing differently will lose some of its fixes
17:41:42 <pfps> q+
17:41:46 <TallTed> ... think we need Dominic here to discuss what he did
17:41:48 <ora> ack pfps
17:42:14 <TallTed> pfps: this PR seems to have been merged over the objections of at least 2 WG members, and should be undone for that reason if no other
17:42:59 <pchampin> q+
17:43:10 <TallTed> ... I found VERY subtle changes in content that impacted the semantics, and cannot certify that this was the only such issue
17:43:18 <ora> ack pchampin
17:44:12 <TallTed> pchampin: sympathizes with difficulty of review, and that semantics change is quite concerning.
17:45:17 <TallTed> ... would probably be better to revert the PR. I would be happy to try to extract what was editorial, what was fixing presentation, and what might have inadvertently made substantive change, toward preserving Dominic's work
17:45:27 <TallTed> q+
17:45:42 <TallTed> ora: that seems a reasonable approach
17:45:48 <ora> ack TallTed
17:45:57 <pchampin> scribe+
17:46:02 <pchampin> TallTed: my concern is twofold.
17:46:10 <AndyS> q+
17:46:26 <pchampin> ... firstly, this PR is impossible to review up close. As pfps said, subtle changes can have significant impact.
17:46:38 <pchampin> ... This is not to discount Dominik's effort in fixing some HTML in there.
17:47:12 <AndyS> q-
17:47:43 <pchampin> ... But there were issues in the labels of his commits. They claimed to do something in all the HTML, while they did missed some spots.
17:47:59 <pchampin> ... And reviewing that in such big diffs is impossible.
17:48:11 <pchampin> ... secondly, this can happen again.
17:49:30 <pchampin> ... requested changes have been marked as resolved without the change being actually implemented.
17:49:35 <pchampin> ... I don't want that to happen again.
17:49:36 <AndyS> q+
17:49:50 <pchampin> ... This was a huge PR, people need to acknowledge that.
17:49:57 <ora> ack AndyS
17:50:18 <pfps> q+
17:50:35 <TallTed> ora: acknowledged this is a large PR
17:50:41 <ora> ack pfps
17:50:42 <pchampin> scribe-
17:51:02 <TallTed> AndyS: there are diff tools which can be used and should highlight the changed areas
17:51:47 <TallTed> pfps: the HTML diff shows lots of false positives (changes that don't appear to be changes), in my view, and that makes me worry about false negatives
17:52:03 <TallTed> ... it also doesn't show the included graphics, among other things
17:53:11 <TallTed> ora: the way forward appears to be to revert this, and pchampin has volunteered to review for editorial changes that could be preserved (i.e., re-executed)
17:53:25 <pfps> The HTML diff tool isn't showing the current state of the document for Section 4.1, including a triple that is mangled.
17:53:38 <TallTed> ... I share the concern that some change might be accidentally made
17:54:13 <TallTed> ktk: there was a message on the mailing list from an external person who hasn't been answered yet
17:54:16 <pchampin> https://www.w3.org/mid/PR3P194MB069824A1101812F3605F8B3BAE322@PR3P194MB0698.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM
17:54:30 <niklasl> q+
17:54:45 <ora> ack niklasl
17:55:25 <niklasl> https://gist.github.com/niklasl/69428b043be6f1d33fd45f89cbe52632#file-statement-entailment-ttl
17:55:49 <pfps> q+
17:55:55 <ora> ack pfps
17:55:59 <TallTed> niklasl: we could probably discuss that tomorrow. I can't answer the whole of his questions yet, but may be able to complete an answer after such discussion.
17:56:24 <gkellogg> q+
17:56:32 <TallTed> pfps: I think it would be fine to say "we haven't worked on rdf-schema yet. stay tuned for more substantive response."
17:56:35 <ora> ack gkellogg
17:56:54 <pchampin> q+
17:56:56 <niklasl> +1 to issue and email reply a link to that
17:57:17 <TallTed> gkellogg: is there an issue covering this? should we be creating issues for other such email messages, to track our response and resolution?
17:57:17 <pfps> +1 as well
17:57:29 <ora> ack pchampin
17:57:40 <niklasl> In rdf-star-wg repo?
17:57:42 <TallTed> ora: that sounds like good plan. niklasl will send reply
17:57:46 <tl> q+
17:58:13 <ora> ack tl
17:58:47 <TallTed> pchampin: I think it would be fine for niklasl to answer with "the group hasn't addressed rdf-schema yet. In my opinion, blah blah, but the group's conclusion may differ."
17:59:01 <tl> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tgejYIrUYQ&pp=ygUWbG90aWNvIGplcnZlbiBib2xsZW1hbg%3D%3D
17:59:35 <TallTed> tl: I think Uniprot had raised a question at some point, which we don't seem to have answered.
18:00:03 <TallTed> Zakim, next item
18:00:03 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Issue Triage, available at -> 6 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:00:11 <TallTed> Zakim, close item 6
18:00:11 <Zakim> agendum 6, Issue Triage, available at -> 6 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5, closed
18:00:13 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
18:00:13 <Zakim> 7. Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting [from agendabot]
18:00:16 <TallTed> Zakim, next item
18:00:16 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:00:21 <TallTed> Zakim, close item 7
18:00:21 <Zakim> agendum 7, Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting, closed
18:00:22 <Zakim> I see nothing remaining on the agenda
18:00:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/12-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
18:00:39 <TallTed> ADJOURNED
18:01:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/12-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
18:02:31 <TallTed> Zakim, bye
18:02:31 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been tl, pfps, ktk, gtw, AndyS, niklasl, Tpt, james, eBremer, ora, gkellogg, fsasaki, olaf, doerthe, draggett, pchampin, enrico
18:02:31 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
18:02:36 <TallTed> RRSAgent, bye
18:02:36 <RRSAgent> I see no action items