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15:47:10 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/12/12-pcg-a11y-irc
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15:47:29 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, this will be pcg-a11y
15:47:29 <Zakim> ok, AvneeshSingh
15:47:38 <AvneeshSingh> present+
15:47:45 <AvneeshSingh> chair: AvneeshSingh
15:48:45 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ The principles and technique documents are being updated based on the feedback received.
15:49:15 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Review the message to display, when one or more mandatory accessibility metadata is not provided by the publisher.
15:49:34 <George> George has joined #pcg-a11y
15:49:39 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Any other business.
15:49:57 <George> present+
15:50:12 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Next call on January 9, 2025.
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16:00:58 <gpellegrino> present+
16:01:08 <gautierchomel> present+
16:02:32 <gautierchomel> scribe+ gautierchomel
16:02:46 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
16:02:47 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- The principles and technique documents are being updated based on the feedback received. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
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16:03:31 <AvneeshSingh> Principles: https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/UX-Guide-Metadata/draft/principles/?updated
16:03:40 <AvneeshSingh> EPUB metadata techniques: https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/UX-Guide-Metadata/draft/techniques/epub-metadata/index.html
16:03:50 <AvneeshSingh> ONIX metadata techniques: https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/UX-Guide-Metadata/draft/techniques/onix-metadata/index.html
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16:05:37 <gautierchomel> George: about the principle document. Updated comment about negative claims when publishers do not provide metadata and distributor makes a statement. It's still problematic and we should adress it. Except from hasard, there is no way for a publisher to say I did not check.
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16:08:00 <gautierchomel> q+
16:08:13 <AvneeshSingh> ack guat
16:08:20 <gpellegrino> gautierchomel: speaking about visual adjustment
16:08:29 <AvneeshSingh> ack gaut
16:08:49 <gpellegrino> ... what is displayed is "appearence modifiability not known"
16:09:39 <gpellegrino> ... the French Publishers' Association has no concerns about "unkwon" statements
16:10:01 <gpellegrino> ... I can double check with them
16:10:19 <mgarrish> q+
16:10:29 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:10:36 <gpellegrino> ... what is worst: to have "no information about visual adjustments from the publisher" or "appearence modifiability not known"?
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16:10:58 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:11:07 <gautierchomel> George: vital source website states something like "there is no information, please contact the publisher".
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16:12:44 <gautierchomel> mgarrish: simple string seems to me clear to it refer to a missing metadata, we should not complexify the reader experience.
16:14:03 <gautierchomel> mgarrish: "no information available" is less misleading i guess.
16:14:23 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:15:08 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:15:20 <gautierchomel> George: so the proposal is to change all unknown statements to "no information available". Looks like a consensus.
16:17:10 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:17:17 <gautierchomel> George: Pre recorded audio clarifies "pre recorded audio"
16:18:23 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:20:07 <mgarrish> q+
16:20:14 <gautierchomel> George: Rich context is a rename of Chart, diagrams, formulas. It became a bigger area with different types of maths, rewording of chemistry to chemical formulas and also accessibility of videos and audios.
16:21:58 <mgarrish> q-
16:22:17 <gpellegrino> q+
16:22:40 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:24:27 <gautierchomel> George: we need an additional final statement that no information is available
16:24:32 <gautierchomel> q+
16:24:46 <AvneeshSingh> ack gaut
16:25:15 <gpellegrino> q+
16:25:45 <gpellegrino> q-
16:26:05 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel: this one is different because we check presence of rich contents and then check if a corresponding accessibility metadata exist.
16:27:45 <gautierchomel> George: so we know that rich content exists but may not knwo the accessibility part of it.
16:27:59 <Chris_ONIX> q+
16:28:07 <gautierchomel> s/knwo/know
16:28:35 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:30:12 <gautierchomel> Chris_ONIX: we provide ONIX guidance to say that if a content is present but not the accessibility related field, then it's a negative claim.
16:31:08 <gautierchomel> Chris_ONIX: so the actual statement is correct, but probably we could say "not known" instead of "not accessible"
16:32:14 <gautierchomel> q+
16:32:22 <gpellegrino> q+
16:32:33 <AvneeshSingh> ack gaut
16:32:46 <gpellegrino> q-
16:33:45 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel: the formulation is neutral (not identified as being accessible) so seems fine.
16:35:21 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:36:07 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel: but maybe that "not identified..." statement should be sais for each content type (here math, chemical, chart, diagram, video, audio, etc.)
16:36:22 <gautierchomel> s/sais/said/
16:37:05 <JonasLillqvist> q+
16:37:44 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:38:44 <gautierchomel> JonasLillqvist: the list here have a heading that duplicates the section heading. Same applies to navigation.
16:39:53 <gautierchomel> George: shouold we take out those headings in examples ?
16:39:55 <gautierchomel> q+
16:40:08 <gautierchomel> s/shouold/should/
16:40:11 <mgarrish> q+
16:41:17 <AvneeshSingh> ack gautier
16:41:25 <gautierchomel> George: probably we should generate exemples from the technics to be sure it's consistent
16:43:56 <AvneeshSingh> ack mgar
16:44:19 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel: actual heading structure results in a lot of duplications (headings with only one element under).
16:45:44 <JonasLillqvist> q+
16:48:32 <gautierchomel> mgarrish: do we have such granular level definition for rich contents in schema.org?
16:48:33 <ccarr> q+
16:48:38 <gpellegrino> 1+
16:48:40 <gpellegrino> q+
16:48:48 <gautierchomel> madeleine: no
16:49:06 <gpellegrino> q-
16:49:34 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:50:59 <gpellegrino> q+
16:51:19 <gautierchomel> JonasLillqvist: another comment about Charts, diagrams, figures, and graphs have extended descriptions. How does this relates to epub metadata. I don't think there is a way to express that a long description corresponds to one or another type of content.
16:51:34 <gpellegrino> q-
16:52:23 <gautierchomel> George: correct. extended description can apply to any kind of content, even a markedup table.
16:52:45 <gautierchomel> George: the only thing we can say is that rich content has extended description
16:53:05 <gautierchomel> JonasLillqvist: compact statement of it is less problematic because it has less details.
16:54:52 <gautierchomel> George: should I change the AND here in a OR? It would be more technically precise.
16:55:04 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:56:05 <Chris_ONIX> q+
16:56:17 <gautierchomel> ccarr: this issue of specifying content exists in the mapping. For use ONIX is less defined than schema.
16:56:55 <AvneeshSingh> acl mext
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16:57:21 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:57:24 <Madeleine> q+
16:57:47 <ccarr> q+
16:57:59 <gautierchomel> Chris_ONIX: to clarify, we joined chart diagram graph because internationaly, each word has a different meaning and one can mean another in some languages.
16:58:38 <gautierchomel> Chris_ONIX: too much ambiguity to separate terms. Unlike type of images (photos, etc.) that are clearly identified in different cultures.
16:59:27 <gautierchomel> Madeleine: I don't remember why we detailed in schema.
16:59:31 <AvneeshSingh> ack madel
16:59:54 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:59:58 <gautierchomel> ccarr: what the user wants to know is probably which of those contents has extended descriptions.
17:00:29 <gautierchomel> George: we cannot detail that in any technique.
17:03:00 <gautierchomel> AvneeshSingh: no call on 26th nor the second. See you on january 9th
17:03:50 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make minutes
17:03:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/12-pcg-a11y-minutes.html AvneeshSingh
17:04:00 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make logs public
17:05:23 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, leave
17:05:23 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been AvneeshSingh, George, gpellegrino, gautierchomel
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