20:05:14 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-at
20:05:18 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/12/12-aria-at-irc
20:05:18 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
20:05:19 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike
20:05:30 <jugglinmike> meeting: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group Weekly Teleconference
20:05:38 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
20:05:41 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
20:05:45 <howard-e> present+
20:05:47 <Joe_Humbert> present+
20:05:52 <jugglinmike> present+ ChrisCuellar
20:05:56 <jugglinmike> present+ hadi
20:06:00 <jugglinmike> present+ IsaDC
20:06:05 <jugglinmike> present+ dean
20:06:24 <jugglinmike> Topic: Review agenda and next meeting dates
20:06:29 <jugglinmike> https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/wiki/December-12%2C-2024-Agenda
20:06:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We're just talking about things that are currently in test today
20:06:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Requests for changes to agenda?
20:07:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll stick with the agenda as planned
20:07:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next Community Group Meeting: Thursday January 9
20:07:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: (I'm having scheduling challenges for next week, and it's the final week of the year that PAC will be available.)
20:08:28 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: So we will leave radio for next year?
20:08:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I would like to get radio in today.
20:08:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next AT Driver Subgroup meeting: Monday January 13
20:08:46 <jugglinmike> Topic: Current status
20:08:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We currently have three things in "draft review"
20:09:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hopefully by the end of this meeting, one of those (navigation menu button) will be out of review
20:09:25 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: One we have currently listed in "refactor" is the next radio group plan
20:09:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We talked about my feedback in our meeting on Tuesday, IsaDC. Is it ready to merge?
20:10:22 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: There were some issues that I fixed, but there were other issues that I couldn't fix because of how NVDA behaves with up and down arrows
20:10:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I thought we agreed that it would be the same as the other plan
20:10:42 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: That's right
20:10:47 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: You can merge that, then
20:11:11 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Will do
20:11:37 <jugglinmike> howard-e: After IsaDC, I will run the script to pull it into the system
20:11:52 <jugglinmike> s/IsaDC,/IsaDC merges the pull request,/
20:12:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yesterday, we met with Vispero. They approved the toggle button and are about the approve the "color viewer slider" plan
20:12:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That is coming, hopefully by the end of the week
20:12:54 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: They are also double-checking on radio group--they have a lot of failures there, so they want to be sure that all the failures are related to bugs
20:13:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's potentially two more approved by Vispero at the end of this year
20:13:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think we've closed all of Apple's issues on those, as well, so hopefully we secure their approval, too
20:13:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So we have a number of approvals by screen readers going up here, which is awesome
20:13:54 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It could be possible that we end the year with a total of 14 things all the way through the "draft" phase and into "candidate"
20:14:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm still hopeful that there will be a handful that make it all the way through the process
20:14:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We might get four or five to "recommended" and another nine in "candidate review". That would be a wonderful way to end the year
20:14:45 <jugglinmike> Topic: Testing navigation menu button
20:15:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I believe there were nine conflicts this morning, but now there are eight
20:15:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The JAWS results conflict page is here: https://aria-at.w3.org/test-queue/304/conflicts
20:15:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The conflicts are in test 3 and test 6
20:16:30 <jugglinmike> hadi: I didn't look into the details. I always copy the output from the JAWS history. I'm pretty sure about the responses, but maybe I mislabeled the check boxes...
20:16:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The difference in test 3, for output, is that IsaDC has the word "collapsed" in her output, and you do not
20:17:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is so easy to get confused because JAWS does exactly the same output for three out of the four commands, but it's slightly different for one of them
20:18:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It matters what mode you're in. You get the word "collapsed" if you're in virtual cursor mode, but you don't if you're in forms mode
20:19:04 <jugglinmike> hadi: I was careful, but of course it's possible I made that mistake
20:19:53 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Also please maximize the window with the test. Chrome has recently started doing something odd if the window is not maximized
20:22:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is test 3, using "insert+up arrow" with the virtual cursor active
20:26:51 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-at
20:27:52 <jugglinmike> hadi: I re-tested 3 and it does indeed say "collapsed" (it automatically changed to the wrong mode). I've updated my results
20:28:13 <jugglinmike> hadi: I will look into the other conflicts immediately following this meeting
20:28:28 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: You can always e-mail me with questions!
20:28:36 <jugglinmike> Topic: Testing for remaining link plans
20:28:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It looks like dean isn't quite done
20:28:52 <jugglinmike> dean: I'm having an issue with the "down arrow" key
20:29:09 <jugglinmike> dean: I'm using a borrowed PC, so I don't know if there's a strange setting there
20:29:16 <jugglinmike> dean: Once I figure that out, I just have one test left to run
20:29:56 <jugglinmike> dean: The final conflict comes from the AT response. The output I observed matches the output reported by the bot. The other tester reported different output
20:30:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Tell me more about the "down arrow" problem. Which test is that?
20:31:01 <jugglinmike> dean: Test 1, "navigating forward to a link"
20:31:24 <jugglinmike> dean: It's from "request information about the link"
20:31:51 <jugglinmike> dean: If I recall correctly, "insert+up arrow" jumped to the top of the page. I would have to try again to verify
20:31:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Are you using a laptop keyboard?
20:32:27 <jugglinmike> dean: I'm looking at the laptop keyboard right now, and the "up arrow" says "page up" next to it. I need to figure out how to turn that off
20:33:20 <jugglinmike> dean: I need to meddle with the settings and figure out how to turn off "page up" when you press the "up arrow" (and "page down" when you press the "down arrow")
20:33:31 <jugglinmike> dean: This is a Lenovo Yoga
20:34:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: My Lenovo that I have year (it's not a Yoga) has a "page up" and "page down" key which is separate
20:35:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: To find out what NVDA is receiving by default, turn on NVDA then press "insert + 1" so that NVDA will tell you what it receives
20:35:37 <jugglinmike> dean: For what it's worth, the NVDA Bot is reporting a blank AT response
20:36:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: When you press "insert + tab", are you getting the correct output?
20:36:07 <jugglinmike> dean: Yes
20:36:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Then the "insert" key is doing the right thing
20:38:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Oh, when I run this test with NDVA, it says blank! Unbelievable!
20:40:08 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: We also have conflicts with "up arrow" in browse mode
20:41:42 <jugglinmike> s/up arrow/down arrow/
20:41:49 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: In test 1
20:43:52 <jugglinmike> dean: Many times, I have run a test without being signed in
20:44:07 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-at
20:44:22 <jugglinmike> dean: I have only learned that I was not signed in when I was ready to submit my results, but at that point, the system would not accept my results
20:44:31 <jugglinmike> dean: So I had to sign in and start from scratch
20:44:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Testing without being logged in is an intentional feature because it lets interested parties explore
20:45:23 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But we should make a user's "logged out" status more clear to help prevent confusion like dean's
20:45:41 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I will track that feature with an issue in the ARIA-AT App project
20:47:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: we need to get people assigned to Radio for VoiceOver and NVDA
20:48:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But lets see if there's anything else to wrap up on links before moving on the radio
20:48:27 <jugglinmike> dean: I will test VoiceOver (I forgot that had been assigned to me)
20:49:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Dean has done all three, and Luke has done two of the three
20:50:39 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Luke has done them, but I didn't press "save". I just pressed "save"
20:52:00 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: dean, to avoid any doubt: you have "link example 2" and "link example 3" for NVDA and VoiceOver
20:53:20 <jugglinmike> Topic: Radio group
20:53:25 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have more testing to do here
20:53:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: dean, do you have more time in the coming week? The next meeting isn't until January, but I'm hoping we can get "radio" done before the end of the year
20:54:11 <jugglinmike> dean: I will have both "link example" tests done with VoiceOver by the end of next week
20:54:39 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I'm available for all three "radio"
20:54:51 <jugglinmike> Hadi: I will have some time
20:55:19 <jugglinmike> dean: And I can cover NVDA. The only issue there is that we've been having conflicts. That's why I've recommended we have three testers for NVDA
20:55:37 <jugglinmike> hadi: I have time between Christmas and New Year's, so I would be glad to take on some work there
20:55:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If you want to take the "radio group" plan with JAWS, I can assign that to you right now
20:55:55 <jugglinmike> hadi: Sure!
20:56:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Great! You are now assigned to "radio group with roving tab index" using JAWS
20:56:36 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Can you assign me, as well?
20:56:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Sure--all set
20:57:25 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: With NVDA and VoiceOver. The bot still isn't done, and I assigned them at the beginning of this meeting. They still say "queued".
20:57:46 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I think the UI may have timed out because I see that it is completed
20:58:08 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I just refreshed 30 seconds ago, and I see that both bots have completed all 15 tests
20:58:32 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I can do VoiceOver with the radio test plan
20:58:45 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: If you need me to do any other test plans, I'm happy to do them for NVDA or VoiceOver
20:58:49 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Thank you, Joe_Humbert
20:59:04 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Should we hold off on updating to the latest release of macOS?
20:59:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I am usually forced to update...
20:59:36 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Version 15.2 just released
20:59:43 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I am already using that
20:59:48 <jugglinmike> dean: I'm on 15.1
21:00:02 <jugglinmike> dean: ...and it doesn't say that I have any updates due
21:00:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: My computer is nudging me to perform an update
21:00:27 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: It sounds like it's okay for me to update
21:02:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't see the "Manage bot run" button
21:02:47 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: It's present for me
21:03:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Oh, is it in the last column? I think it used to be in the "status" column. Ah, there it is
21:03:19 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Just let me know if I need to do any link tests
21:03:27 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I think we're covered there
21:06:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's it! Thanks for the help, everyone, and happy new year!
21:07:01 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
21:07:01 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, howard-e, Joe_Humbert, ChrisCuellar, hadi, IsaDC, dean
21:07:03 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
21:07:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/12-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
21:07:12 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
21:07:12 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-at
21:07:22 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
21:07:22 <RRSAgent> I see no action items