14:59:28 RRSAgent has joined #wot-td 14:59:32 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-irc 14:59:50 meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF - Slot 1 15:00:02 present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Jan_Romann 15:00:36 rrsagent, make log public 15:00:39 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:00:40 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:01:26 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 15:02:41 present+ Michael_Koster 15:03:42 present+ Ege_Korkan 15:03:44 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:03:45 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:03:53 chair: Ege 15:05:15 dape has joined #wot-td 15:05:47 present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi, Daniel_Peintner 15:05:51 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:05:53 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:06:00 q+ 15:06:07 q+ 15:06:20 cris has joined #wot-td 15:06:23 q+ 15:06:37 ack k 15:06:43 topic: Agenda 15:06:50 q- 15:06:53 sk: anything? 15:07:33 s/sk/ek/ 15:07:50 kaz: McCool mentioned additional use case templates for User Story and Use Case Category were generated, and wanted to work on "tryout" during the TD calls. maybe tomorrow./ 15:08:08 s|./|.| 15:08:11 q+ 15:08:15 scribenick: JKRhb 15:08:40 i|anything|scribenick: kaz| 15:08:49 s/anything/anything to be added specifically?/ 15:09:04 ca: Maybe we could talk five minutes about additionalExpectedResponses, since the topic came up in the Scripting API call 15:09:12 agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#December_11-12%2C_2024 15:09:42 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:09:43 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:09:54 topic: Minutes Review 15:10:02 i|Rev|-> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#December_11-12%2C_2024 agenda for today| 15:10:03 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:10:05 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:10:13 ek: We will first have a look at the minutes of the last regular meeting, then we will talk about WoT Week 15:10:23 q+ 15:10:25 ... and something related to standardization 15:10:39 ack cr 15:10:40 subtopic: Minutes from November 20 15:10:40 ack k 15:10:47 -> https://www.w3.org/2024/11/20-wot-td-minutes.html Nov-20 15:10:48 ek: The scribenick looks odd 15:10:57 kaz: Just the IRC nicks used during the call 15:11:05 ek: We talked about the initial connection topic 15:11:22 ... there was a lot of agreement, more discussion regarding algorithms etc. 15:11:29 ... oh, there is a typo here, Kaz 15:11:46 ... we carried over the results from hackmd to GitHub 15:11:59 ... any remarks regarding the minutes from the people here? 15:12:07 ... minutes are approved once the typo is fixed 15:12:10 kaz: Just fixed 15:12:16 ek: Then the minutes are approved 15:12:18 s/Kaz/Kaz (HW => How)/ 15:12:42 subtopic: WoT Week Minutes (Friday TD session) 15:12:58 ek: Will only focus on the Friday TD session, plugfest recap has been done elsewhere 15:13:04 i|Will|-> https://www.w3.org/2024/11/29-wot-minutes.html Nov-29| 15:13:17 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:13:18 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:13:24 ... (scrolls through the minutes) 15:13:41 ... there was some discussion regarding the Binding registry, vocabulary prefixes 15:13:59 ... I think "sv" here is Salvatore 15:14:03 s/sv/SV/ 15:14:10 ... or is there someone else? 15:14:15 ca: Was I the scribe? 15:14:17 fixed 15:14:26 ... if so I think it was Salvatore 15:14:33 dp: I think it was actually me 15:14:40 kaz: Fixed already, don't worry 15:14:53 ek: Then we updated the document during that call 15:15:04 ... the results of the discussion are actually in the registry work 15:15:06 Mizushima has joined #wot-td 15:15:07 ... any other remarks? 15:15:13 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:15:15 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:15:28 ... alright, then I guess the session on TD and bindings is approved 15:15:40 ... I guess there is nothing else 15:15:52 topic: Plugfest Outcomes 15:16:08 ek: Wanted to ask whether it is fine to merge this PR (wot PR 1223) 15:16:32 ... aligned the names of the presentations to "Plugfest Outcomes" and included everyone's name in the file name 15:16:42 ... I also extended the README 15:17:01 q? 15:17:07 q+ 15:17:10 ... there was also a duplicated presentation by Toumura-San, I removed the duplicate 15:17:19 ... not hearing any objections, then I guess it is fine to merge 15:17:29 kaz: @@@ 15:17:38 ek: Some things are under wot-testing 15:17:46 ... other things are in this repository 15:18:01 kaz: If that is what you meant then that is fine, just wanted to confirm 15:18:06 ek: Then let's merge this one 15:18:12 PR is merged 15:18:19 s/@@@/Plugfest resources are mainly installed under the wot-testing repository, but do you want to put the report on the wot repository. right?/ 15:18:25 subtopic: Standardization-level feedback 15:18:46 ek: Came up with my own summary to extract what is relevant for the standardization process 15:19:00 ... please tell me if you want to change anything while I go through the list 15:19:03 i|Wanted|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1223 wot PR 1223 - Organizing Plugfest Outcomes Folder| 15:19:11 present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima 15:19:12 ... so this is based both on the slides and the minutes 15:19:19 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:19:21 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:19:28 q? 15:19:28 ... but I might have missed something 15:19:28 q- 15:19:35 ... there were multiple people mentioning multi-part form inputs 15:19:56 ... e.g., like in a website form where you can upload a picture and provide profile information 15:20:02 ... this is currently not supported by TD 15:20:12 ... another aspect is streamed responses 15:20:28 ... like if you get subsequent responses to one query 15:20:39 i|Came up|-> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#Plugfest_Recap Ege's Plugfest recap| 15:20:41 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:20:43 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:20:49 ... McCool has commented on an existing issue (1044) 15:21:01 ... Deutsche Telekom has also brought this up 15:21:13 ... might also be relevant for non-IoT devices 15:21:22 i|there were m|subtopic: Multi-part form| 15:21:23 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:21:25 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:21:31 ... was mentioned by Ben Francis, whether we should also support services this way 15:21:48 ... but in a way, he is correct that this kind of services is sometimes embedded into devies 15:21:57 ... so it is not necessarily out of scope for us 15:22:04 ... the use case is definitely still there 15:22:31 ... Roman Blinkert has also raised a similar issue, that was dealing with streaming the position of a robot 15:22:51 i|there were|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1464 wot-thing-description Issue 1464 - How to describe multipart/form-data in TDs| 15:22:52 ek: Then Matthias and Jan brought up sleepy devices, was also raised in Mahda's slides, for example 15:22:59 ... mentioned by multiple people 15:23:14 q? 15:23:24 ... when the device is not available, but will be in 10 minutes or so, this is not describable via TDs at the moment 15:23:32 q+ 15:23:40 i|1044|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1044 wot-thing-description 1044 - Adding term to indicate a stream of data| 15:23:56 ... there are two issues opened regarding this, one in TD by me and one by Jan in the wot-binding-templates repository 15:24:26 ek: Then Conexxus and Cristiano brought up that data schemas might not always fit the data received from a device 15:24:31 q+ 15:24:43 ... need to deal with this, maybe additional responses could be used here 15:25:00 ... need to cover the non-usual cases as well 15:25:07 s/subtopic: Standardization-level feedback/topic: Standardization-level feedback/ 15:25:12 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:25:13 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:25:37 dp: Wanted to comment on the sleepy devices: I think Carsten Bormann mentioned that data might be relatively old, since measurements are only taken every x minutes 15:25:40 i|another aspect is|subtopic: Streamed responses| 15:25:41 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:25:42 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:25:48 ... he also wanted to add a term for that 15:26:02 ... reminds of this discussion, also related to saving memory/battery 15:26:22 ek: I think it is not exactly the same, but under the same umbrella, would be great to find that issue 15:26:28 i|Then Mat|subtopic: Sleepy devices| 15:26:29 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:26:30 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:26:42 ... another example might be MQTT where values might be retained and therefore outdated 15:26:51 ... cannot specify this at the protocol level 15:26:59 dp: I will research this and add it to the Wiki 15:26:59 s/Ege's Plugfest recap/Ege's recap/ 15:27:00 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:27:02 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:27:08 ca: Agree that this is related 15:27:12 q? 15:27:16 ack d 15:27:17 ack c 15:27:23 ... but it's tricky, since in CoAP you cannot reach the device at all while it is sleeping 15:27:45 ca: Something else I wanted to convey was that the data that is exposed from the thing 15:28:00 i|Then Con|subtopic: Invalid data according to the schema| 15:28:03 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:28:04 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:28:10 ... Conexxus is more concerned with the data they publishing, did not really think about the consumer 15:28:21 ... this is problematic and can be a problem for interoperability 15:28:41 i|Wanted to|subtopic: Sleepy devices - revisited| 15:28:42 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:28:43 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:28:54 ... e.g., for each transaction they publishing the whole history and you need to parse and rearrange it again 15:28:57 q+ 15:29:12 ... would be nice to have an event, in this case we had to add custom logic to parse the array 15:29:21 ek: I remember, but I think this is actually another point 15:29:32 s/every x mi/every X mi/ 15:29:33 ca: Maybe some more guidelines/teaching is needed here 15:29:43 ... does not necessarily have to go into the REC 15:29:55 ... also uncovered some validation issues 15:30:19 ... since we are saying that the data needs to be valid, and this was definitely an exception in the plugfest 15:30:40 ek: I think we were thinking about this, but the schema might become to complex 15:30:50 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:30:52 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:30:58 ca: I think they mentioned this, but this was kind of the root of our problems 15:31:15 ... for example, they someone broke validation in node-wot, and suddenly their whole TD was wrong, not sure why 15:31:46 ek: There was a request in Conexxus, they are using $ref in their OpenAPI definitions 15:31:58 ... there is an existing issue for this, will require pre-processing 15:32:03 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:32:04 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:32:10 ... (shows issue 1249) 15:32:35 q+ 15:32:37 ... the issue is that $ref has to refer to an outside document, not the same document 15:32:53 ... need to think about this, might need to put some restrictions in place 15:33:01 i|Something else|subtopic: External Schema| 15:33:03 q? 15:33:09 ek: We talked to Conexxus regarding events on the first day 15:33:31 kaz: The discussion itself is great, but for today we can probably continue the discussion on the Wiki 15:33:51 ... my proposal is to copy the wiki content to a Markdown file 15:33:56 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:33:57 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:34:03 ek: This is something I wanted to ask 15:34:16 ... in the scenarios, we included a "Results" section for each one 15:34:28 ... maybe we can use that 15:34:38 ... but where should we put the information 15:34:55 kaz: That's why I was asking you to put the results in the wot repository 15:35:12 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:35:14 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:35:21 ... so my proposal would be to quickly skim the list and then move them somewhere else 15:35:47 ca: Just wanted to mention that we might need to use SchemaDefinitions, but this might be very hard 15:35:55 ... the whole mechanism should be consistent and nicely put 15:35:59 ek: Yeah, I agree 15:36:14 i|shows issue 1249|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1249 wot-thing-description Issue 1249 - Refer to external data schemas| 15:36:15 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:36:17 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:36:23 ek: Then there were some questions regarding the eventing mechanism 15:36:32 ... should provide some guidance here, e.g., not use longpolling 15:36:55 ek: Then we have the type vs @type, Mahda/Daniel brought it up 15:37:16 ... then there was an old issue again regarding writeproperty operations that might return a value 15:37:19 s/That's why I was asking you to put the results in the wot repository/That's why I was asking you about whether putting the results in the wot repository would be intended or not./ 15:37:21 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:37:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:37:50 ... there other aspects mentioned regarding the importance of LLMs brought up by Toumura-San and Michael McCool 15:38:24 ... lastly, in the context of UPC UA, there was the question regarding URI schemes and unauthorized characters 15:38:33 s/so my proposal would be to quickly skim the list and then move them somewhere else/so my proposal would be to quickly skim the issue list on the TD agenda wiki, and then discuss how to handle further discussion next./ 15:38:38 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:38:39 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:38:46 ek: I will put the information into the wot-testing reposistory, if that is fine for everyone 15:39:12 s/discussion next./discussion next rather than diving into the detail one by one today. 15:39:13 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:39:15 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:39:38 ... (starts copying the content from the Wiki and adjusts the README in the StandardizationTests directory within the folder for the Munich event) 15:39:43 s/longpolling/long-polling/ 15:39:44 ... this will move it here 15:39:54 ... just wanted to ask whether someone wants to add something here 15:40:11 i|Then we have|subtopic: type vs @type| 15:40:13 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:40:14 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:40:21 q? 15:40:21 ... was there something that was good to learn for the standarization, e.g., bugs to clarify 15:40:21 q- 15:40:21 ack c 15:40:22 ack c 15:40:49 ... alright, so I'll put it here, but if you see anything you want to extend, you can do a pull request 15:40:53 i|then there|subtopic: Writeproperty| 15:41:08 ... and then maybe, Kaz, we can link it here in the wiki 15:41:21 q+ 15:41:26 ... (adjusts the wiki) 15:41:54 kaz: My suggestion was and is putting detailed questions and analysis into the wiki could be kind of complicated 15:42:08 ... so it might be better to put the content into some kind of repository 15:42:15 ek: Yeah, so I did this, is that fine? 15:42:20 kaz: Yes, thank you 15:42:21 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:42:22 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:42:30 ek: No worries 15:42:43 topic: TD SpecWork 15:42:53 i|aspect|subtopic: Human readable data| 15:42:54 subtopic: Additional Expected Responses 15:43:00 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:43:01 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:43:07 ca: Just a question, we started the discussion from the errors 15:43:19 i|lastly|subtopic: URI Schemes| 15:43:21 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:43:22 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:43:30 ... if I remember correctly, the additional responses could be successes or errors 15:43:30 ... but I did not find any success responses 15:43:42 ... do you know if there is an example for that or do you remember something? 15:43:49 i|I will put|subtopic: Where to put the summary?| 15:43:51 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:43:53 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:43:59 ... I looked into the TDD and I thought there was something, but there was nothing there 15:44:16 ek: I think I implemented that, but do you want an example or a real-world example? 15:44:29 ca: Real-world is better of course, but any example is good 15:44:40 ek: (shows an example TD) 15:44:55 s/into the wiki could be kind of complicated/into the GitHub side, because Wiki content tend to get longer and longer./ 15:45:07 ... so in this case, the response we were getting was different from the one regular one 15:45:19 ... when we query an action 15:45:38 ... and it was a similar thing with queryaction 15:45:50 ca: Couldn't you just use the response here? 15:45:58 ek: I think this is a bug we have in TD 15:46:04 i|Yes, thank|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-testing/blob/main/events/2024.11.Munich/StandardizationTests/README.md#outcomes WoT Week summary on the GitHub side| 15:46:06 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:46:08 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:46:14 ... as you can only provide the content type, but not a data schema 15:46:17 ca: Then this is just a workaround 15:46:20 ek: I agree 15:46:28 ... the real workaround came rather from the TDD 15:46:43 ca: I quickly scanned it, but I did not find it 15:46:58 ... only got additionalResponses with errors 15:47:06 ... but as I said, we will start with errors 15:47:23 s/Additional Expected Responses/Additional Expected Responses (feedback from the Scripting API TF)/ 15:47:27 ... so maybe we can think about this again, once we have dealt with the errors 15:47:27 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:47:28 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:47:38 ek: This is similar to writeproperty that cannot return a value 15:47:48 ca: I recently had a similar issue 15:48:30 ... with an example where you get a 207 response with a list of partial IDs that were okay during an update 15:48:34 ... or bulk operation 15:48:47 ... but you could even argue that this might be an error response 15:48:53 i|Just a question|-> https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-script-minutes.html#b36b Scripting API discussion on Dec-12 15:48:55 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:48:56 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:49:02 ek: I think there are real-world examples 15:49:07 ... perhaps more regarding this writeproperty case 15:49:15 q? 15:49:18 ... for example, if you write something that could be processed 15:49:20 q- 15:49:37 https://github.com/w3c/wot-testing/blob/main/data/input_2022/TD/wot-experimental/TDs/mqttExperimental.td.jsonld 15:49:49 ... added the link to the example above 15:49:50 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:49:51 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:50:08 subtopic: Initial Connection Discussion 15:50:23 ek: Before the plugfest, I started working on a JSON Schema to describe what we had 15:50:38 ... still haven't been able to finish this, but I am working on it 15:50:42 ... question is where to put it 15:51:05 ... where should we put this experimental stuff? 15:51:14 q+ 15:51:23 ... Could keep it in a personal repository, but maybe an official repository would be better 15:51:58 ... maybe some experimental repository? Do not want to put it into the toolchain repository and don't want to pollute the TD repository 15:52:25 q+ 15:52:25 ... usually, I think this should go into the editor's draft, but in this case it might be too experimental 15:52:42 dp: I always thought that the proposals folder might be the way to go here 15:52:58 s/proposals/"proposals"/ 15:53:06 ... we have some proposals for hypermedia there, but I don't know why you don't want to put it there 15:53:09 ack dape 15:53:13 q+ 15:53:21 ek: Just not to pollute the commit history 15:54:08 kaz: Whatever is fine, if there is no impact, then I think we could put it into the proposals folder for example 15:54:22 ... another possiblity would be creating another repository 15:54:38 q- 15:55:15 jr: Experimental branch could be also an option 15:55:36 q+ 15:55:45 ek: Don't want to mess up the HTML etc., since we have the toolchain coming up 15:56:07 kaz: So for a while, we could think about this as another detected section to merged into the main document 15:56:40 ek: Yes, currently, it is also in the planning section, which is very ugly, we cannot do this for everything, since it will explode the document 15:56:51 ... should move it somewhere else at some point 15:57:06 ... can also go to the proposals folder 15:57:33 kaz: If we create a dedicated repository, it will be easier to look at the rendered document 15:57:43 q? 15:57:47 q- 15:57:49 q- 15:57:52 ek: We can just look at the rendered markdown 15:58:02 ... I think I like the proposal from Daniel 15:58:24 s/rendered document/rendered document (if we want to have an HTML)/ 15:58:27 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:58:29 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:58:42 ... and eventually, we can just delete it, as we are agreeing to put it in the main document 15:59:16 ... are you also fine with this approach, Jan? Or do you prefer the experimental branch? 15:59:34 jr: Totally fine with that, just wanted to mention it as a potential alternative 15:59:35 q? 15:59:39 topic: AOB 15:59:46 i|Before the plug|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/2058 wot-thing-description PR 2058 - Initial Connection Feature Description| 15:59:47 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:59:48 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:59:54 ek: Is there any other business? 16:00:00 ... then we can adjourn, and we will see each other tomorrow 16:00:12 ... have a nice evening, night, or day, see you tomorrow 16:00:14 [adjourned 16:00:26 s/adjourned/adjourned]/ 16:00:28 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:00:30 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:03:35 EgeKorka_ has joined #wot-td 16:04:10 EgeKorka_ has joined #wot-td 18:07:57 Zakim has left #wot-td