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16:57:33 <AutomatedTester> meeting: WebDriver December 2024
16:58:07 <AutomatedTester> Chair: David Burns
16:58:12 <AutomatedTester> Scribe: David Burns
16:58:19 <AutomatedTester> ScribeNick: automatedtester
16:58:22 <orkon> orkon has joined #webdriver
16:58:26 <AutomatedTester> present+
16:59:02 <AutomatedTester> agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2024-12-BiDi
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17:03:06 <jgraham> present+
17:03:17 <jgraham> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:03:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
17:03:39 <jgraham> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:03:41 <tidoust> present+ Francois
17:03:42 <orkon> present+
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17:04:53 <AutomatedTester> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2024-12-BiDi
17:05:17 <AutomatedTester> Topic: Feature detection for BCD collector
17:05:21 <sasha> present+
17:05:28 <benchatt> present+
17:05:31 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/826
17:06:02 <AutomatedTester> whimboo: there isn't much to discuss at this point. I had a meeting last week about the BCD collection
17:06:38 <sadym> present+
17:06:42 <AutomatedTester> ... we are in need of a way that we can check various versions of browsers to show that new versions of features in bidi went into new browsers
17:06:55 <AutomatedTester> ... this is very difficult to keep track of things
17:07:19 <AutomatedTester> ... at the moment there is a spreadsheet that tracks this but it would be good to get the info that we need
17:07:58 <AutomatedTester> ... my request is that I need feedback on this either here or on the issue
17:08:06 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:08:26 <jgraham> q+
17:08:44 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:09:23 <orkon> q+
17:09:43 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I think is a very difficult problem to solve and I am not sure how we can solve this. I kinda feel that keeping this manually updated in a spreadsheet is better. I think one way or another there will be manual process
17:10:11 <AutomatedTester> whimboo: we could try run a test and that will tell us what is supported and what isn't but that is only for commands
17:10:14 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:10:56 <AutomatedTester> orkon: You said that WPT isn't useful but could we use the data that is already in wpt.fyi that has some of this data already
17:11:42 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: We've never been able to do this on any other platform in the past. It seems easy to start but then it gets very difficult very quickly
17:12:20 <AutomatedTester> ... I think that having a human do this manually it could be the same amount of effort of automating this
17:12:48 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:13:08 <AutomatedTester> Topic: Input events dispatch to top-level frame
17:13:19 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver/pull/1847
17:13:47 <jgraham> q+
17:13:52 <AutomatedTester> sadym: There is already a discussion that is in the PR. I am a bit stuck with which approach we should be doing here
17:13:55 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:14:21 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: At the moment the spec say we pick and iframe and send events to/from that
17:15:14 <AutomatedTester> ... but we may want other data from all frames. e.g. if an overlay is over an iframe and click. We want to have the envet fro the overlay and then the Iframe
17:15:30 <AutomatedTester> ... and there might also be a case with what happens when the iframe disappears
17:16:24 <AutomatedTester> ... we should handle cancelling when frame goes and stop the propagation from the frame but items can still go that way
17:17:15 <AutomatedTester> ... in the future we should probably have a way doing calculations based off the iframe
17:17:38 <AutomatedTester> sadym: my first question: do we want to specify the calc the coords or dispatch to
17:18:04 <jgraham> q+
17:18:12 <AutomatedTester> ... and do that on the <missed what was said>
17:18:26 <orkon> q+
17:18:37 <AutomatedTester> ... and then do the calculations more precise and then do htat to the top level
17:18:42 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
17:19:15 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: yes... we need to work with how browsers actually work and then do that from the top/parent and let that go down to the correct place
17:19:39 <AutomatedTester> ... I feel like we agree on the model here
17:19:54 <AutomatedTester> ... the main issue is what happens when the iframe disappears
17:20:06 <AutomatedTester> ... we can either keep going or can fail
17:20:22 <whimboo> q+
17:20:37 <AutomatedTester> q+
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17:20:53 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:21:16 <AutomatedTester> orkon: I think the issue if the iframe disappears. I thought that was solved with the PR from whimboo .
17:21:40 <AutomatedTester> ... I think that if the the iframe disappears we should still continue sending the actions
17:22:00 <AutomatedTester> ... e.g. mouse down removes the iframe we should continue
17:22:49 <jgraham> q+
17:22:53 <AutomatedTester> ... back to sadym  if we change to to the top level then the calculations could be a lot harder to do where the current way is already working
17:23:14 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:23:39 <AutomatedTester> whimboo: a follow to the PR, I haven't done this
17:23:52 <orkon> PR I meant https://github.com/w3c/webdriver/pull/1861
17:24:20 <AutomatedTester> ... I wanted to give a comment to jgraham if we have to continue then it might be good to handle both case (carry on and error)
17:24:39 <AutomatedTester> ... and we would have a default that is managed by an argument
17:24:49 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:28:02 <tidoust> AutomatedTester: Initially, actions were "do as I say", not "do what I mean". actions.mousedown would assume that the element would be in the viewport. Little things like that. Actions should be above the glass. You would just be telling the coordinates and do the action. But you don't necessarily know what's underneath. If I do element.click,
17:28:02 <tidoust> behavior is different.
17:28:17 <tidoust> i/AutomatedTester:/scribe+ tidoust
17:28:54 <tidoust> AutomatedTester: For iframes, behavior has indeed always be different.
17:29:13 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:29:15 <orkon> q+
17:29:23 <orkon> q-
17:29:39 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: Do we need to be precise in the spec? Yes definitely
17:30:22 <AutomatedTester> ... I know that there are parts that say browser specific but coordiniates is different and we all have the same  on that
17:31:31 <AutomatedTester> ... my proposal for clients would send details from the top level traversible
17:32:32 <AutomatedTester> ... but clients could send them at iframe if they want but then handle the situation if it disappears
17:33:08 <orkon> q+
17:33:10 <AutomatedTester> ... I think we need to follow this up in the issues
17:33:16 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:33:40 <AutomatedTester> orkon: I agree with the error if it doesn't still exist
17:34:02 <AutomatedTester> ... we could do the calculations at the beginning
17:34:17 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I don't think we can beause if we have scroll then all the coords are out
17:34:20 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:34:38 <AutomatedTester> topic: Fail `browsingContext.navigate` if navigation is aborted
17:34:46 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/799
17:35:19 <AutomatedTester> sadym: we have the issue where the user navigated to a page that had a script redirect which then aborted the navigate
17:35:47 <AutomatedTester> ... I looked at spec. The spec says we shouldn't fail
17:36:11 <jgraham> q+
17:36:15 <AutomatedTester> ... what is the expected behaviour if the navigation is aborted? Should we error or wait until redirection has completed?
17:36:18 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:36:52 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: we're not talking about a redirect but a script that creates a new navigation
17:37:24 <jdescottes> q+
17:37:40 <AutomatedTester> ... it functionally looks like a redirect but it's doing a stop and then navigate
17:37:56 <AutomatedTester> ... I think we should tell the user that we have stopped the navigation and have started a new one
17:38:06 <orkon> q+
17:38:07 <AutomatedTester> .. I know this might look weird for the users
17:38:36 <AutomatedTester> sadym: I would expected <missed what was said>
17:38:50 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:39:15 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: In the issue you have said that we should treat it like a failure
17:39:32 <orkon> q-
17:39:42 <AutomatedTester> ... it seems weird that we are failing when a new navigation has started
17:39:59 <AutomatedTester> jdescottes: I think we want to have a convenience way to handle this situation
17:40:09 <orkon> q+
17:40:10 <sadym> I would expect either the command to fail or to finish the navigation to "complete", where I can expect the page is ready
17:40:42 <AutomatedTester> ... I don't think it makes sense to error here
17:40:47 <sadym> q+
17:40:58 <orkon> q-
17:41:00 <AutomatedTester> ... I think the webdriver classic way handled this quite well
17:41:15 <AutomatedTester> ... and following that way will help people migrate easier
17:41:22 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:41:27 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:41:48 <AutomatedTester> sadym: I think we are missing 2 concepts. DOM lifecycle and navigation
17:42:06 <AutomatedTester> ... if we do DOM then it makes sense
17:42:25 <AutomatedTester> ... but while we mix these concepts then its going to cause issues
17:42:36 <AutomatedTester> s/missing 2 concepts/mixing 2 concepts
17:42:41 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:42:58 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I think I need to reread this issue and come back to you
17:43:27 <AutomatedTester> s/I would expected <missed what was said>/I would expect either the command to fail or to finish the navigation to "complete", where I can expect the page is ready
17:43:32 <sadym> * if we do navigation then
17:43:55 <AutomatedTester> topic: Proposal to remove non-global unsubscribe requests for events
17:44:07 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/829
17:44:44 <AutomatedTester> orkon: I was working on the change to allow unsubscribe by IDs so ahve come up mwith this proposal
17:45:19 <AutomatedTester> ... there is a non-global unsubscribve request
17:45:41 <AutomatedTester> ... if we want to support it we are going to ahve to split the subscriptions into multiple ways
17:46:13 <AutomatedTester> ... a user can subscribe globally and then unsubscribe by ID then nothing is actually going to happen
17:46:25 <jgraham> q+
17:46:41 <AutomatedTester> ... this proposal will simplify the way people use it and simplify the spec
17:46:43 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:46:52 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I agree this is confusing
17:47:29 <orkon> q+
17:47:34 <AutomatedTester> ... it's not undefined. It may do in some cases. I am not sure about removing it as we don't have a way of checking who is using it
17:47:53 <AutomatedTester> ... I think we can put ourselves on a path to removing it with warning but not just remove it yet
17:48:33 <AutomatedTester> ... it would have been better doing it 2 years ago but we didn't.
17:48:34 <jdescottes> q+
17:48:37 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:49:32 <AutomatedTester> orkon: I have a specific proposal is to define a data structure that won't go into the way of it with a warning
17:49:38 <jdescottes> q-
17:50:05 <AutomatedTester> ... if there are clients that are broken we can always go help them there
17:50:06 <jgraham> q+
17:50:08 <jdescottes> q+
17:50:31 <AutomatedTester> ... but I feel there won't be many clients affected
17:50:33 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:50:44 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: that says reasonable
17:50:51 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:51:23 <orkon> q+
17:51:23 <AutomatedTester> jdescottes: this sounds good to me. For the spec changes, do you think we can do the old way and do the way with IDs?
17:51:40 <AutomatedTester> ... not sure if you have put thought into that?
17:51:41 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:52:30 <AutomatedTester> orkon: I have the PR that jgraham has reviewed it partially. The issue is to unsubscrube to partial subscriptions
17:52:48 <AutomatedTester> ... jgraham has put one model in the issue
17:53:05 <AutomatedTester> ... <missed the 2nd way>
17:53:25 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:53:50 <AutomatedTester> topic: CDDL extracts in Webref, CDDL support in Bikeshed
17:54:21 <AutomatedTester> tidoust: This is more of meta issue and is linked to the first topic
17:54:30 <jgraham> s/<missed the 2nd way>/either we preprocess all subscriptions so that partial unsubscibes are easy or we keep the data structure for subscriptions simpler but need to do a complex operation for partial unsubscribes/
17:54:56 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make minutes
17:54:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
17:55:04 <AutomatedTester> ... I wanted to see if there are ways to extract CDDL
17:55:33 <AutomatedTester> ... and that led me to the way bikeshed seeing it didn't have a way to do CDDL
17:55:43 <AutomatedTester> ... which led to other issues with things missing
17:56:29 <AutomatedTester> ... this is a pending PR. I need feedback from this group and from Tab
17:56:47 <AutomatedTester> ... which means we can have better webref support
17:58:15 <AutomatedTester> ... <describes a few issues and how it can affect the naming and spec usage>
17:58:31 <AutomatedTester> ... I will be able to start adding things to webref soon
17:58:56 <jgraham> q+
17:59:30 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:59:51 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I would like to say I am really excited to see this work!
18:02:47 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make minutes
18:02:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
18:02:54 <jgraham> zakim, bye
18:02:54 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been AutomatedTester, orkon, jdescottes, jgraham, Francois, whimboo, sasha, benchatt, sadym
18:02:54 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webdriver
18:03:18 <jgraham> RRSAgen, bye
18:03:21 <jgraham> RRSAgent, bye
18:03:21 <RRSAgent> I see no action items