IRC log of matf on 2024-12-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:01:45 [RRSAgent]

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-matf-irc

14:01:49 [Zakim]

RRSAgent, make logs Public

14:01:50 [Zakim]

please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ

14:01:54 [JJ]

Zakim, this is MATF 11 December 2024

14:01:54 [Zakim]

got it, JJ

14:02:00 [JJ]

Meeting: MATF 11 December 2024

14:02:05 [JJ]

chair+

14:02:09 [Aash]

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14:02:23 [JJ]

agenda+ Draft Group Note update

14:02:27 [JJ]

agenda+ 1.4.1 Use of Color

14:02:32 [JJ]

agenda+ 1.4.3 Contrast (Minimum)

14:02:36 [JJ]

agenda+ 1.4.11 Non-text Contrast

14:02:40 [JJ]

agenda+ 1.4.10 Reflow

14:03:13 [Illai]

present+

14:03:26 [Aash]

Present+

14:04:05 [Mick]

present+

14:04:10 [quintinb]

present+

14:04:23 [Tim]

present+

14:04:56 [JJ]

scribe+ quintinb

14:05:09 [JJ]

regrets+ KarlaRubiano

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14:05:16 [JJ]

move to next agendum

14:05:16 [Zakim]

agendum 1 -- Draft Group Note update -- taken up [from JJ]

14:05:21 [julianmka]

present+

14:05:27 [quintinb]

Please feel free to correct me if I capture you incorrectly1

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14:08:09 [quintinb]

JJ spoke about the current state and got feedback. Some people are confused about the difference between WCAG2ICT and WCAG2Mobile, and other aspects. JJ highlighted we need to focus on mobile, but it needs to expand to all mobile varioations. So scope will be increasing. We need to see to what we are going to be aligning, probably early next year

14:08:41 [JJ]

https://www.w3.org/2024/12/10-ag-minutes

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14:09:02 [GleidsonRamos]

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14:09:21 [Jon_Gibbins]

present+

14:09:37 [quintinb]

JJ thanks detlev for trying to keep focus on native mobile

14:10:50 [quintinb]

Draft note update: We have a new section - interpretation of web terms in mobile context

14:12:03 [quintinb]

Jamie - since we are following WCAG2ICT this is something to review. The section needs some review

14:12:45 [quintinb]

JJ also is exlcluded from scope

14:15:40 [Jamie]

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14:15:42 [quintinb]

JJ asks us to check that our names are in the list of contributors

14:15:48 [Jamie]

present+

14:15:48 [JJ]

q?

14:16:16 [quintinb]

Jamie do we have a timeline for public comment or is it too early?

14:16:29 [quintinb]

JJ no timeline yet

14:16:32 [JJ]

ACTION: Update timeline for WCAG2Mobile

14:20:14 [julianmka]

+1 to holiday break

14:20:20 [Jamie]

+1

14:20:21 [Jon_Gibbins]

+1 to needing a break

14:20:25 [quintinb]

JJ anyone want a break? 2 weeks?

14:20:30 [quintinb]

+1 to break

14:20:37 [JJ]

Break after 18 December, until....?

14:20:49 [Mick]

I'll be away on paternity week for 5/6 weeks come 23 Dec

14:20:50 [julianmka]

resume January 8? or 15?

14:20:57 [JJ]

8 January or 15 January as next meeting?

14:20:58 [Jon_Gibbins]

Just to note for discussion afterwards: I don’t seem to have access to the repo at the moment. I can fork and submit PRs but cannot checkout the Abstract-and-Intro branch.

14:21:00 [julianmka]

Congrats, Mick!

14:21:32 [quintinb]

I am away from 18 to 8th (including those days)

14:21:33 [Jamie]

yay Mick!

14:21:35 [Jon_Gibbins]

I’m taking a 2-week break for Christmas, also returning Jan 6th

14:21:39 [Mick]

Thanks all :)

14:21:40 [Jon_Gibbins]

Congrats Mick!

14:21:47 [Tim]

+1 to break until 8th januari (as in, I am back from my break on the 6th)

14:22:04 [Jamie]

2 week for me but open to 15

14:22:11 [Illai]

Congrats Mick!

14:22:16 [JJ]

ACTION: Break from December 18 until January 8

14:22:44 [JJ]

move to next agendum

14:22:44 [Zakim]

agendum 2 -- 1.4.1 Use of Color -- taken up [from JJ]

14:24:25 [quintinb]

q+ does this include making an icon more bold?

14:24:27 [JJ]

q?

14:24:30 [JJ]

ack quintinb

14:24:38 [quintinb]

does this include making an icon more bold?

14:24:45 [JJ]

The syntax is `q+ to XXXX`

14:24:54 [julianmka]

q+

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14:25:05 [julianmka]

q-

14:25:06 [quintinb]

thx

14:25:26 [Mick]

+1 to JJ - I don't see that as failure

14:25:42 [julianmka]

The issues with 1.4.1 that we had discussed before are also issues that apply to the web.

14:26:03 [Jamie]

q+

14:26:40 [quintinb]

JJit has to do with hue and lightness

14:26:44 [JJ]

q?

14:26:47 [JJ]

ack Jamie

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14:28:06 [quintinb]

Jamie there is another section that mentions that setting or conveying a links visited status is not an author responsibility. Perhaps we need to talk about this regarding mobile. In concept it seems straightforward

14:29:12 [quintinb]

JJ it seems more fitting for an understanding doc later

14:29:27 [JJ]

Poll: Apply 1.4.1 Use of Color as written?

14:29:30 [julianmka]

+1

14:29:32 [quintinb]

+1

14:29:34 [Tim]

+1

14:29:34 [Jamie]

+1

14:29:37 [Mick]

+1

14:29:40 [Illai]

+1 With a note

14:30:34 [quintinb]

Illai regarding the note: clarify the differences in technology

14:30:45 [Jamie]

and link vs button language maybe?

14:32:01 [JJ]

ACTION: Apply 1.4.1 Use of Color directly as written, but with note to clarify differences with web

14:32:27 [julianmka]

q+

14:32:33 [JJ]

ack julianmka

14:33:20 [JJ]

move to next agendum

14:33:20 [Zakim]

agendum 3 -- 1.4.3 Contrast (Minimum) -- taken up [from JJ]

14:34:35 [quintinb]

Please define large text

14:34:54 [quintinb]

What is the smallest acceptable text size?

14:37:26 [quintinb]

EN301549 suggests that providing dark mode will be required

14:37:52 [JJ]

q?

14:37:53 [Mick]

My recommendation would be to add requirement around Dark mode and remove the 'Large Text' variation.

14:37:53 [quintinb]

Units of measurement is also difficult on different platforms

14:38:00 [Jamie]

q+

14:38:04 [JJ]

ack Jamie

14:38:35 [Jon_Gibbins]

q+ to clarify commenting on glare-related / dynamic environment issues surrounding mobile

14:38:58 [julianmka]

+1 Jamie on importance of font weight

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14:39:35 [Aash]

+1 to Jamie

14:39:48 [Aash]

Thin typefaces are a problem

14:39:50 [julianmka]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Understanding/contrast-minimum#intent:~:text=Due%20to%20anti,this%20Success%20Criterion.

14:40:03 [quintinb]

Jamie Some of the understanding docs discuss the thinness of font... This has more of an affect on smaller screens. Phones are read at more angles than screens. We need to think about bringing attention to visualising font on a phone

14:40:06 [Jon_Gibbins]

+1 to Jamie’s point

14:41:01 [Illai]

+1 to Jamie

14:41:13 [quintinb]

Aash I think choice of font is part of the EN310549 and user choice (11.7)

14:41:52 [quintinb]

Jamie it might be helpful to recommend a min text size

14:42:08 [Jamie]

term: anti-aliasing

14:42:12 [julianmka]

Could we go with the minimum sizes used in HIG and Material?

14:43:05 [Jon_Gibbins]

Points are just confusing though, because “web points” are not the same as iOS points I think??

14:43:40 [JJ]

q?

14:43:42 [JJ]

ack Jon_Gibbins

14:43:42 [Zakim]

Jon_Gibbins, you wanted to clarify commenting on glare-related / dynamic environment issues surrounding mobile

14:43:52 [quintinb]

Jon_Gibbins not sure if the apple pts map directly to print sizes

14:44:06 [julianmka]

https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelines/typography#iOS-iPadOS-Dynamic-Type-sizes

14:44:19 [quintinb]

julianmka referenced the HIG

14:44:28 [quintinb]

In the small print

14:44:42 [quintinb]

Can someone get my magnifying glass?

14:47:30 [julianmka]

q+

14:47:50 [JJ]

ACTION: Research measuring text sizes on Android and iOS, mapping them do dp/pt and comparing with CSS points / pixels

14:47:53 [JJ]

ack julianmka

14:48:35 [Mick]

+1 to julianmka point

14:50:20 [Jamie]

q+

14:50:48 [JJ]

ack Jamie

14:51:24 [quintinb]

Jamie does the increased contrast apply to apps that use system fonts, but also those with custom and hybrid content

14:51:36 [quintinb]

Oh sorry

14:51:55 [julianmka]

My previous comment: We need to account for the known contrast failures in default iOS styles

14:52:58 [quintinb]

julianmka I know Samsung allows for users to download their own fonts for the system, which responds to settings. My understanding is that if you are using a complete font the user settings are always correctly applied

14:53:26 [Jon_Gibbins]

Just clarifying my thought: WCAG 2 refers to print points (1pt = 1/72 of 1in) rather than iOS points (arbitrary levelling unit for accommodating different pixel densities). There’s a high likelihood of readers getting confused about these so I feel we need to be clear on the thresholds on this SC (1.4.3).

14:53:43 [quintinb]

JJ custom fonts are a little hard on iOS

14:54:10 [quintinb]

@Jam'

14:54:21 [quintinb]

Jamie how is hybrid content affected?

14:55:03 [quintinb]

Apologies to hybrid fans, but I do think hybrid should be subject to the platform on which it appears. You don't get a pass for trying to shortcut development time

14:57:32 [JJ]

ACTION: Make a list of known default Android/iOS components that fail contrast requirements

14:57:39 [quintinb]

Jamie can we review the actions?

14:57:45 [JJ]

ACTION: Consider adding thinness/thickness requirements as note

14:58:05 [JJ]

ACTION: Think about effect of system settings on contrast requirements

14:58:24 [quintinb]

The font sizes?

14:58:30 [quintinb]

Minimum font size

14:58:59 [JJ]

ACTION: Provide guidance for dark mode / light mode (do both need to pass contrast?)

14:59:50 [quintinb]

I won't be here next week, please accept apologies

15:00:30 [JJ]

regrets+ Joe_Humbert

15:00:47 [JJ]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:00:48 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-matf-minutes.html JJ

15:01:11 [JJ]

rrsagent, bye

15:01:11 [RRSAgent]

I see 8 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-matf-actions.rdf :

15:01:11 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Update timeline for WCAG2Mobile [1]

15:01:11 [RRSAgent]

recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-matf-irc#T14-16-32

15:01:11 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Break from December 18 until January 8 [2]

15:01:11 [RRSAgent]

recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-matf-irc#T14-22-16

15:01:11 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Apply 1.4.1 Use of Color directly as written, but with note to clarify differences with web [3]

15:01:11 [RRSAgent]

recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-matf-irc#T14-32-01

15:01:11 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Research measuring text sizes on Android and iOS, mapping them do dp/pt and comparing with CSS points / pixels [4]

15:01:11 [RRSAgent]

recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-matf-irc#T14-47-50

15:01:11 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Make a list of known default Android/iOS components that fail contrast requirements [5]

15:01:11 [RRSAgent]

recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-matf-irc#T14-57-32

15:01:11 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Consider adding thinness/thickness requirements as note [6]

15:01:11 [RRSAgent]

recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-matf-irc#T14-57-45

15:01:11 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Think about effect of system settings on contrast requirements [7]

15:01:11 [RRSAgent]

recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-matf-irc#T14-58-05

15:01:11 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Provide guidance for dark mode / light mode (do both need to pass contrast?) [8]

15:01:11 [RRSAgent]

recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-matf-irc#T14-58-59