14:01:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
14:01:49 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-matf-irc
14:01:49 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:01:50 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
14:01:54 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF 11 December 2024
14:01:54 <Zakim> got it, JJ
14:02:00 <JJ> Meeting: MATF 11 December 2024
14:02:05 <JJ> chair+
14:02:09 <Aash> Aash has joined #matf
14:02:23 <JJ> agenda+ Draft Group Note update
14:02:27 <JJ> agenda+ 1.4.1 Use of Color
14:02:32 <JJ> agenda+ 1.4.3 Contrast (Minimum)
14:02:36 <JJ> agenda+  1.4.11 Non-text Contrast
14:02:40 <JJ> agenda+ 1.4.10 Reflow
14:03:13 <Illai> present+
14:03:26 <Aash> Present+
14:04:05 <Mick> present+
14:04:10 <quintinb> present+
14:04:23 <Tim> present+
14:04:56 <JJ> scribe+ quintinb
14:05:09 <JJ> regrets+ KarlaRubiano
14:05:15 <julianmka> julianmka has joined #MATF
14:05:16 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:05:16 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Draft Group Note update -- taken up [from JJ]
14:05:21 <julianmka> present+
14:05:27 <quintinb> Please feel free to correct me if I capture you incorrectly1
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14:08:09 <quintinb> JJ spoke about the current state and got feedback. Some people are confused about the difference between WCAG2ICT and WCAG2Mobile, and other aspects. JJ highlighted we need to focus on mobile, but it needs to expand to all mobile varioations. So scope will be increasing. We need to see to what we are going to be aligning, probably early next year
14:08:41 <JJ> https://www.w3.org/2024/12/10-ag-minutes
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14:09:02 <GleidsonRamos> GleidsonRamos has joined #matf
14:09:21 <Jon_Gibbins> present+
14:09:37 <quintinb> JJ thanks detlev for trying to keep focus on native mobile
14:10:50 <quintinb> Draft note update: We have a new section - interpretation of web terms in mobile context
14:12:03 <quintinb> Jamie - since we are following WCAG2ICT this is something to review. The section needs some review
14:12:45 <quintinb> JJ also is exlcluded from scope
14:15:40 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
14:15:42 <quintinb> JJ asks us to check that our names are in the list of contributors
14:15:48 <Jamie> present+
14:15:48 <JJ> q?
14:16:16 <quintinb> Jamie do we have a timeline for public comment or is it too early?
14:16:29 <quintinb> JJ no timeline yet
14:16:32 <JJ> ACTION: Update timeline for WCAG2Mobile
14:20:14 <julianmka> +1 to holiday break
14:20:20 <Jamie> +1
14:20:21 <Jon_Gibbins> +1 to needing a break
14:20:25 <quintinb> JJ anyone want a break? 2 weeks?
14:20:30 <quintinb> +1 to break
14:20:37 <JJ> Break after 18 December, until....?
14:20:49 <Mick> I'll be away on paternity week for 5/6 weeks come 23 Dec
14:20:50 <julianmka> resume January 8? or 15?
14:20:57 <JJ> 8 January or 15 January as next meeting?
14:20:58 <Jon_Gibbins> Just to note for discussion afterwards: I don’t seem to have access to the repo at the moment. I can fork and submit PRs but cannot checkout the Abstract-and-Intro branch.
14:21:00 <julianmka> Congrats, Mick!
14:21:32 <quintinb> I am away from 18 to 8th (including those days)
14:21:33 <Jamie> yay Mick!
14:21:35 <Jon_Gibbins> I’m taking a 2-week break for Christmas, also returning Jan 6th
14:21:39 <Mick> Thanks all :)
14:21:40 <Jon_Gibbins> Congrats Mick!
14:21:47 <Tim> +1 to break until 8th januari (as in, I am back from my break on the 6th)
14:22:04 <Jamie> 2 week for me but open to 15
14:22:11 <Illai> Congrats Mick!
14:22:16 <JJ> ACTION: Break from December 18 until January 8
14:22:44 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:22:44 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 1.4.1 Use of Color -- taken up [from JJ]
14:24:25 <quintinb> q+ does this include making an icon more bold?
14:24:27 <JJ> q?
14:24:30 <JJ> ack quintinb
14:24:38 <quintinb> does this include making an icon more bold?
14:24:45 <JJ> The syntax is `q+ to XXXX`
14:24:54 <julianmka> q+
14:24:56 <Aash> Aash has joined #matf
14:25:05 <julianmka> q-
14:25:06 <quintinb> thx
14:25:26 <Mick> +1 to JJ - I don't see that as failure
14:25:42 <julianmka> The issues with 1.4.1 that we had discussed before are also issues that apply to the web.
14:26:03 <Jamie> q+
14:26:40 <quintinb> JJit has to do with hue and lightness
14:26:44 <JJ> q?
14:26:47 <JJ> ack Jamie
14:26:55 <Aash> Aash has joined #matf
14:28:06 <quintinb> Jamie there is another section that mentions that setting or conveying a links visited status is not an author responsibility. Perhaps we need to talk about this regarding mobile. In concept it seems straightforward
14:29:12 <quintinb> JJ it seems more fitting for an understanding doc later
14:29:27 <JJ> Poll: Apply 1.4.1 Use of Color as written?
14:29:30 <julianmka> +1
14:29:32 <quintinb> +1
14:29:34 <Tim> +1
14:29:34 <Jamie> +1
14:29:37 <Mick> +1
14:29:40 <Illai> +1 With a note
14:30:34 <quintinb> Illai regarding the note: clarify the differences in technology
14:30:45 <Jamie> and link vs button language maybe?
14:32:01 <JJ> ACTION: Apply 1.4.1 Use of Color directly as written, but with note to clarify differences with web
14:32:27 <julianmka> q+
14:32:33 <JJ> ack julianmka
14:33:20 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:33:20 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 1.4.3 Contrast (Minimum) -- taken up [from JJ]
14:34:35 <quintinb> Please define large text
14:34:54 <quintinb> What is the smallest acceptable text size?
14:37:26 <quintinb> EN301549 suggests that providing dark mode will be required
14:37:52 <JJ> q?
14:37:53 <Mick> My recommendation would be to add requirement around Dark mode and remove the 'Large Text' variation.
14:37:53 <quintinb> Units of measurement is also difficult on different platforms
14:38:00 <Jamie> q+
14:38:04 <JJ> ack Jamie
14:38:35 <Jon_Gibbins> q+ to clarify commenting on glare-related / dynamic environment issues surrounding mobile
14:38:58 <julianmka> +1 Jamie on importance of font weight
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14:39:18 <Aash> Aash has joined #matf
14:39:35 <Aash> +1 to Jamie
14:39:48 <Aash> Thin typefaces are a problem
14:39:50 <julianmka> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Understanding/contrast-minimum#intent:~:text=Due%20to%20anti,this%20Success%20Criterion.
14:40:03 <quintinb> Jamie Some of the understanding docs discuss the thinness of font... This has more of an affect on smaller screens. Phones are read at more angles than screens. We need to think about bringing attention to visualising font on a phone
14:40:06 <Jon_Gibbins> +1 to Jamie’s point
14:41:01 <Illai> +1 to Jamie
14:41:13 <quintinb> Aash I think choice of font is part of the EN310549 and user choice (11.7)
14:41:52 <quintinb> Jamie it might be helpful to recommend a min text size
14:42:08 <Jamie> term: anti-aliasing
14:42:12 <julianmka> Could we go with the minimum sizes used in HIG and Material?
14:43:05 <Jon_Gibbins> Points are just confusing though, because “web points” are not the same as iOS points I think??
14:43:40 <JJ> q?
14:43:42 <JJ> ack Jon_Gibbins
14:43:42 <Zakim> Jon_Gibbins, you wanted to clarify commenting on glare-related / dynamic environment issues surrounding mobile
14:43:52 <quintinb> Jon_Gibbins not sure if the apple pts map directly to print sizes
14:44:06 <julianmka> https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelines/typography#iOS-iPadOS-Dynamic-Type-sizes
14:44:19 <quintinb> julianmka referenced the HIG
14:44:28 <quintinb> In the small print
14:44:42 <quintinb> Can someone get my magnifying glass?
14:47:30 <julianmka> q+
14:47:50 <JJ> ACTION: Research measuring text sizes on Android and iOS, mapping them do dp/pt and comparing with CSS points / pixels
14:47:53 <JJ> ack julianmka
14:48:35 <Mick> +1 to julianmka point
14:50:20 <Jamie> q+
14:50:48 <JJ> ack Jamie
14:51:24 <quintinb> Jamie does the increased contrast apply to apps that use system fonts, but also those with custom and hybrid content
14:51:36 <quintinb> Oh sorry
14:51:55 <julianmka> My previous comment: We need to account for the known contrast failures in default iOS styles
14:52:58 <quintinb> julianmka I know Samsung allows for users to download their own fonts for the system, which responds to settings. My understanding is that if you are using a complete font the user settings are always correctly applied
14:53:26 <Jon_Gibbins> Just clarifying my thought: WCAG 2 refers to print points (1pt = 1/72 of 1in) rather than iOS points (arbitrary levelling unit for accommodating different pixel densities). There’s a high likelihood of readers getting confused about these so I feel we need to be clear on the thresholds on this SC (1.4.3).
14:53:43 <quintinb> JJ custom fonts are a little hard on iOS
14:54:10 <quintinb> @Jam'
14:54:21 <quintinb> Jamie how is hybrid content affected?
14:55:03 <quintinb> Apologies to hybrid fans, but I do think hybrid should be subject to the platform on which it appears. You don't get a pass for trying to shortcut development time
14:57:32 <JJ> ACTION: Make a list of known default Android/iOS components that fail contrast requirements
14:57:39 <quintinb> Jamie can we review the actions?
14:57:45 <JJ> ACTION: Consider adding thinness/thickness requirements as note
14:58:05 <JJ> ACTION: Think about effect of system settings on contrast requirements
14:58:24 <quintinb> The font sizes?
14:58:30 <quintinb> Minimum font size
14:58:59 <JJ> ACTION: Provide guidance for dark mode / light mode (do both need to pass contrast?)
14:59:50 <quintinb> I won't be here next week, please accept apologies
15:00:30 <JJ> regrets+ Joe_Humbert
15:00:47 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-matf-minutes.html JJ
15:01:11 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
15:01:11 <RRSAgent> I see 8 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-matf-actions.rdf :
15:01:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Update timeline for WCAG2Mobile [1]
15:01:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-matf-irc#T14-16-32
15:01:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Break from December 18 until January 8 [2]
15:01:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-matf-irc#T14-22-16
15:01:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Apply 1.4.1 Use of Color directly as written, but with note to clarify differences with web [3]
15:01:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-matf-irc#T14-32-01
15:01:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Research measuring text sizes on Android and iOS, mapping them do dp/pt and comparing with CSS points / pixels [4]
15:01:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-matf-irc#T14-47-50
15:01:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Make a list of known default Android/iOS components that fail contrast requirements [5]
15:01:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-matf-irc#T14-57-32
15:01:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Consider adding thinness/thickness requirements as note [6]
15:01:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-matf-irc#T14-57-45
15:01:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Think about effect of system settings on contrast requirements [7]
15:01:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-matf-irc#T14-58-05
15:01:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Provide guidance for dark mode / light mode (do both need to pass contrast?) [8]
15:01:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/11-matf-irc#T14-58-59