15:04:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lws
15:04:04 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/12/09-lws-irc
15:04:04 <jeswr> +present
15:04:10 <acoburn> zakim, start meeting
15:04:10 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:04:12 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), acoburn
15:04:18 <acoburn> meeting: Linked Web Storage
15:04:24 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: Linked Web Storage WG -- 2024-12-09 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/a19ab7dc-1753-433d-bac5-64e3ad8c0a43/20241209T100000/
15:04:26 <acoburn> chair: acoburn
15:04:32 <TallTed> meeting: Linked Web Storage WG
15:04:32 <TallTed> present+
15:04:34 <TallTed> present+ jeswr
15:04:36 <TallTed> present+ acoburn
15:04:38 <bendm> present+
15:04:39 <hadrian> present+
15:04:41 <csarven> present+
15:04:59 <uvdsl> present+
15:05:30 <balessan> balessan has joined #lws
15:05:34 <balessan> present+
15:05:35 <eBremer> present+
15:05:35 <acoburn> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/wiki/Scribe-list
15:05:52 <ericP> ericP has joined #lws
15:05:58 <ericP> present+
15:06:39 <ericP> scribenick: ericP
15:06:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/09-lws-minutes.html TallTed
15:07:03 <acoburn> agenda?
15:07:35 <TallTed> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/a19ab7dc-1753-433d-bac5-64e3ad8c0a43/20241209T100000/
15:07:35 <agendabot> clear agenda
15:07:35 <agendabot> agenda+ Introductions and announcements
15:07:35 <agendabot> agenda+ Pending Action Items -> 1 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/153/views/1
15:07:35 <agendabot> agenda+ Use Cases Review -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/153/views/4
15:08:09 <TallTed> Zakim, open item 1
15:08:09 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Introductions and announcements -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:09:17 <ericP> acoburn, you can always request to add stuff to the agenda at the beginning of the meeting, but it's better to propose to the list or reach out to a chair
15:09:39 <ericP> [no new group members]
15:09:43 <ericP> Zakim, next agendum
15:09:43 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Pending Action Items -> 1 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/153/views/1 -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:09:52 <TallTed> s/acoburn, you/acoburn: you/
15:10:13 <TallTed> Zakim, close item 2
15:10:13 <Zakim> agendum 2, Pending Action Items -> 1 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/153/views/1, closed
15:10:15 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
15:10:15 <Zakim> 3. Use Cases Review -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/153/views/4 [from agendabot]
15:10:16 <ericP> acoburn: no pending actions items
15:10:22 <TallTed> Zakim, next item
15:10:22 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Use Cases Review -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/153/views/4 -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:10:26 <hadrian> q+
15:10:29 <ericP> acoburn: we're getting good use cases
15:10:54 <cpn> cpn has joined #lws
15:10:59 <ericP> ... please continue to provide them and probably more importantly, comment on the existing use cases
15:10:59 <cpn> present+
15:11:14 <ericP> ... there's a "needs discussion" label that can be added to use cases
15:11:41 <ericP> ... we (chairs) have selected a couple, but avoided the trickier ones to start with
15:12:07 <ericP> ... se selected issue/22 and issue/14
15:12:24 <ericP> ... there's a connection between them as they both need some sort of notification
15:12:57 <ericP> ... (meta) when you see some intersections or duplicates, please flag them
15:13:27 <ericP> ... hadrian, does this reflect a set you'd like to start with? (not trying to limit to 2)
15:13:41 <ericP> ack next
15:14:32 <ericP> hadrian: pr/20 is to start the draft. pierre antoin proposed a few changes which i merged
15:14:50 <ericP> ... i'd like to get this out of the way so we can have the 1st draft in the main branch
15:15:40 <ericP> ... re two selected use case (issues), i think we also wanted to test whether the dashboard worked
15:15:41 <csarven> present- bbl,
15:16:26 <ericP> ... there are obviously-missing use cases
15:16:47 <ericP> acoburn: the choice of those two largely came from the number of comments
15:17:22 <acoburn> q?
15:17:24 <ericP> ... the connection between them seemed to merit discussion, but happy to start with others if you prefer
15:17:38 <ericP> hadrian: perfectly fine
15:18:00 <ericP> acoburn: [describing them at a high level]
15:19:14 <ericP> ... 14, asynchronous goods delivery, is about providing a mechanism where a 3rd party can write into a storage for a limited time
15:19:30 <ericP> ... 22, notifications, is more general
15:19:56 <hadrian> q+
15:20:07 <ericP> ... allows 3rd party to provide comments about data in the storage
15:20:14 <ericP> ack next
15:20:36 <ericP> hadrian: i just added 13 to "needs discussion" because it's related
15:20:58 <ericP> ... it's the combination of data and agents that share data
15:22:16 <ericP> ericP: do we want to take this as an introduction to consider tags and selection or should we just work on these UCs and see what comes out?
15:22:36 <ericP> acoburn: should we look at hadrian's broad categories?
15:23:14 <ericP> hadrian: i think it will be easier if the group goes though pre-categorized by the editor
15:23:16 <ericP> +1
15:23:42 <ericP> hadrian: i'd like to discuss infrastructure
15:23:47 <hadrian> q+
15:23:47 <ericP> acoburn: fine by me
15:24:02 <ericP> ... certainly when we look at trust, we'll need that
15:24:06 <ericP> ack next
15:24:31 <ericP> hadrian: i think Tim originally viewed this as peer-to-peer
15:24:49 <ericP> ... (of course, leveraging DNS)
15:25:03 <ericP> ... IDPs were identified as needed
15:25:26 <ericP> ... we need to be able to scale; it's easy to demo stuff a low scale
15:26:11 <ericP> ... trust, non-repudiation etc require delegation to some infrastructure
15:26:26 <ericP> ... so we have to think about how this infrastructure will evolve
15:26:31 <acoburn> q+
15:26:41 <ericP> ack next
15:26:49 <balessan> q+
15:27:02 <ericP> acoburn: we also want to think about scope
15:27:33 <hadrian> q+
15:27:37 <ericP> ... when we discuss infrastructure, we can bring in everything on the internet (not possible in our charter)
15:27:59 <acoburn> ack balessan
15:28:11 <ericP> ... we need to acknowledge that there can be our infrastructure but also stuff that others layer on top
15:28:32 <ericP> balessan: we should focus on the UCs and derive the needed infrastructure
15:28:54 <ericP> ... when we speak of trust, there's an intersection with the Data Spaces work
15:29:19 <ericP> ... if we're talking about interactions between orgs, we should consider other WGs' work
15:29:28 <ericP> ack next
15:29:28 <acoburn> ack next
15:29:35 <ericP> hadrian: +1
15:30:05 <ericP> ... acoburn mentioned scope, which is paramount if we want to meet our charter deadline
15:30:20 <ericP> ... we don't need to define everything in detail, just the characteristics
15:30:26 <ericP> q+
15:30:32 <acoburn> ack next
15:30:41 <acoburn> scribe+
15:30:54 <acoburn> ericP: that suggests we're defining interfaces
15:31:29 <acoburn> ... we need to be able to run tests, so any work towards limiting scope will also limit the feature set
15:31:44 <acoburn> ... and what the product can to for users
15:31:58 <acoburn> ... this is challenging for products with interoperability tests
15:32:01 <acoburn> scribe-
15:33:39 <ericP> acoburn: with the UCs we have in github issues, hadrian can describe the required infrastructure for a UC to be successful
15:33:44 <hadrian> q+
15:33:50 <acoburn> ack next
15:33:54 <ericP> ... want to do that assync or start now?
15:34:19 <ericP> hadrian: i think it must be done assynchronously because it's so much work
15:35:35 <ericP> ... we need to be as simple as possible
15:35:51 <ericP> ... if we don't keep scalability in mind, we won't scale
15:36:12 <ericP> ... i.e. discuss archetechtures like hub and spoke, etc.
15:36:26 <uvdsl> q+
15:36:36 <csarven> q+
15:36:40 <acoburn> ack next
15:36:42 <ericP> ... proposed seperation protocol and data formats
15:37:15 <ericP> ... ericP is sceptical we can avoid going into details, i think it's required
15:37:41 <ericP> uvdsl: re API design and interaction protocol
15:38:21 <ericP> ... Solid spec has lots of API design, Interop spec has lots of protocol
15:38:24 <acoburn> ack next
15:39:23 <ericP> ... sarven: if you were to define a data format in this WG, which we're not, we could do that to describe e.g. discovery
15:39:46 <ericP> ... i don't think we need to discuss breaking up the spec
15:40:18 <ericP> ... changing one component in the Web Arch doesn't require changing other specs
15:40:53 <ericP> ... typically docs are split up for readability and modularity
15:42:18 <ericP> ... if e.g. auth spec changes, the other components shouldn't be affected by the details of the auth spec because it will have a short shelf-life
15:42:45 <ericP> acoburn: in the charter, we have an "output", but that doesn't mean it will be a single document
15:43:24 <ericP> ... [to sarvent's point] auth is typically a moving target and we should avoid tighty-binding to it
15:44:01 <ericP> ... hadrian, you labaled nico's (long) UC with "needs discussion"
15:44:33 <ericP> ... as a UC per se, it goes beyond, e.g. mentions implementation
15:45:09 <ericP> ... has anyone read 24 and do they have some comments?
15:45:45 <ericP> hadrian: nico's UC reveals functionality that many UCs hide
15:45:46 <TallTed> s/archetechtures/architectures/
15:46:02 <TallTed> s/sceptical/skeptical/
15:46:17 <TallTed> s/seperation/separation/
15:46:30 <ericP> ... re moving data from one provider to another, Q is what is the unit of data that can move?
15:46:45 <ericP> ... if i want to move data from one place to another, i don't want to break links
15:47:01 <ericP> ... so we need a resolution mechanism
15:47:47 <ericP> ... analogous with git
15:48:12 <ericP> ... so can nodes be resolved to some repository
15:48:32 <csarven> q+
15:48:42 <ericP> ... looks to me like a hybrid graph like git + Large File Storage
15:48:46 <acoburn> ack next
15:49:46 <jeswr> jeswr has joined #lws
15:50:03 <ericP> csarven: agenda request: discuss scope
15:50:18 <ericP> ... looking at UCs some are solution-engineering
15:50:44 <ericP> ... we all want our stuff to work but we need to fit it in two years
15:51:05 <ericP> ... we're talking about shaping up key components that make this thing
15:51:20 <ericP> ... from Solid, i learned that it takes a long time
15:51:28 <hadrian> q+
15:51:51 <ericP> ... and do priory docs address some UCs
15:52:31 <ericP> ... not saying we accept them verbatim, but i think our contract is pretty close to the UCs
15:52:56 <hadrian> q-
15:52:56 <ericP> s/to the UCs/to the Solid specs/
15:53:29 <acoburn> q+
15:53:37 <acoburn> ack next
15:53:47 <ericP> ... we won't be able to solve all decentralization issues
15:53:48 <uvdsl> +1
15:54:01 <ericP> acoburn: summarizes my concearns as well
15:54:03 <ericP> q?
15:54:47 <ericP> acoburn: we'll have to look at UCs and decide whether they're in scope
15:55:03 <ericP> ... even if in scope, it might not be prioritized
15:55:34 <ericP> Zakim, draft minutes
15:55:34 <Zakim> I don't understand 'draft minutes', ericP
15:55:57 <ericP> TallTed, help?
15:56:08 <acoburn> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:56:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/09-lws-minutes.html acoburn
16:02:51 <ericP> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:02:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/09-lws-minutes.html ericP
16:03:21 <ericP> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:03:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/09-lws-minutes.html ericP
16:03:55 <ericP> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:03:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/09-lws-minutes.html ericP
16:04:16 <ericP> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:04:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/09-lws-minutes.html ericP
16:04:31 <timbl> timbl has joined #lws
16:04:55 <acoburn> acoburn has left #lws
20:12:30 <TallTed> s/+present//
20:14:14 <TallTed> s|issue/22 and issue/14|https://github.com/w3c/lws-ucs/issues/22 and https://github.com/w3c/lws-ucs/issues/14|
20:15:11 <TallTed> s|pr/20|https://github.com/w3c/lws-ucs/pull/20 |
20:15:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/09-lws-minutes.html TallTed
20:18:13 <TallTed> s|TallTed, help?||
20:18:13 <TallTed> s/draft minutes//
20:18:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/09-lws-minutes.html TallTed
20:19:01 <TallTed> Zakim, bye
20:19:01 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been present, TallTed, jeswr, acoburn, bendm, hadrian, csarven, uvdsl, balessan, eBremer, ericP, cpn
20:19:01 <Zakim> Zakim has left #lws
20:19:07 <TallTed> RRSAgent, bye
20:19:07 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
<pchampin> s/... sarven:/csarven:
<pchampin> s/concearns/concerns