15:20:27 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #coga
15:20:32 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/12/09-coga-irc
15:20:32 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:20:33 <Zakim> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:20:33 <lisa> clear agenda
15:20:36 <lisa> q?
15:21:11 <lisa> regrets+ Julie, Eric, David Swallow
15:21:36 <lisa> scribe+ EA
15:22:03 <lisa> agenda+  reviewing the new template for making
15:22:03 <lisa> content useable. You can see the proposed template on
15:22:03 <lisa> <https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1aOyK6N5coRlT1ZA7SZNp4w4sP7ynxBNNT2HBUt4NCOQ/edit?usp=sharing>The
15:22:03 <lisa> deck with the structure v2 design recommendations
15:22:05 <lisa> See https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1aOyK6N5coRlT1ZA7SZNp4w4sP7ynxBNNT2HBUt4NCOQ/edit?usp=sharing
15:22:26 <lisa> agenda+ updates and actions https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit#heading=h.ka7r1m4q5vkc
15:23:03 <lisa> agenda+ Issue: Should issue papers focus on user needs more then technology so that they survive longer.
15:24:06 <lisa> agenda+ Meetings this wee. See https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Subgroups
15:44:04 <lisa> Q?
15:50:26 <lisa> agenda?
15:51:41 <lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
15:51:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/09-coga-minutes.html lisa
15:56:45 <thelounge> thelounge has joined #coga
15:56:59 <thelounge> Present+
15:57:57 <lisa> Present+
15:58:28 <lisa> scribe+ thelounge, EA
15:59:30 <Rain> Rain has joined #coga
16:00:59 <lisa> next item
16:01:01 <Jennie_Delisi> Jennie_Delisi has joined #coga
16:01:06 <Jennie_Delisi> present+
16:01:18 <Jennie_Delisi> Apologies - I can only stay for half the meeting today.
16:01:32 <thelounge> Ist issue on the Agenda is Rain's structure subgroup
16:01:34 <lisa> agenda+  reviewing the new template for making
16:01:34 <lisa> content useable. You can see the proposed template on
16:01:34 <lisa> <https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1aOyK6N5coRlT1ZA7SZNp4w4sP7ynxBNNT2HBUt4NCOQ/edit?usp=sharing>The
16:01:34 <lisa> deck with the structure v2 design recommendations
16:01:36 <lisa> See https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1aOyK6N5coRlT1ZA7SZNp4w4sP7ynxBNNT2HBUt4NCOQ/edit?usp=sharing
16:01:59 <thelounge> Rain to share screen
16:01:59 <kirkwood> present+
16:02:58 <thelounge> Structure group has carried out surveys and now has the results that have led to a new design template.
16:03:12 <thelounge> These are recommendations for an overall layout.
16:03:28 <Jennie_Delisi> Jennie_Delisi has joined #coga
16:03:29 <Jennie_Delisi> present+
16:03:37 <lisa> present+
16:04:26 <thelounge> This Coga Content Usable restructure version 2  - several different views but overall reasonable positive reviews... has everyone reviewed it?
16:04:31 <Rain> present+
16:04:46 <kirkwood> +1
16:04:54 <thelounge> Who managed to get through the slide deck?
16:05:19 <thelounge> Tiffany has made time this afternoon and John K has seen the slides
16:06:16 <thelounge> Second slide has a table of contents and then there is a walk through video - need to view it all as all has been covered over several slides
16:06:29 <thelounge> 4th slide has a timeline
16:06:51 <thelounge> Finalising the design based on what is possible in the time and the technology constraints.
16:07:55 <thelounge> 5th slide has the key research findings... this has been very important and must experience each page as a single page. Need to keep things alot shorter and allow people to go through to things that they really want - accordians are going to be used.
16:08:49 <thelounge> Needs to be broken up into 5 sections each with 3 sub sections and the cotents remains vitally important as the clarity of the visual framework is not easy to digest.
16:09:42 <thelounge> A 'chef's kiss' was a term used for the ease of design.
16:11:02 <thelounge> The look and feel has been found to be very important - the quick start guide approach with an abstract and appendix top and bottom.  Everything is cut short with the collapsing accordians.
16:12:08 <thelounge> There are visual cues via strong horizontal lines and white space
16:12:22 <Jan> Jan has joined #coga
16:12:28 <Jan> present+
16:12:36 <thelounge> There are clear short paragraphs that lead into the accordians.
16:13:20 <lisa> Q?
16:13:57 <thelounge> The collapsed version can be printed out as 3-4 pages rather than the original 206 pages this because of the majority of the content being hidden from the initial view
16:14:56 <lisa> cognative accessiblity guidence - as a name sujestion
16:15:07 <Rain> Draft document for any new text to consider: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GwIadQU2rmDwqPDeYX6PF7UjnD4D47vqRjvPysXNe-A/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.wywn8whw0g4l
16:17:06 <thelounge> There is a considerable amoount of information in the speaker notes that won't be seen on the slides themselves
16:17:48 <thelounge> People need to be able to see the table of contents at all times and need to be able to expand and contract the accordian.  Finally it is important to be able to share the content with others easily.
16:18:31 <tiffanyburtin> tiffanyburtin has joined #coga
16:18:38 <thelounge> There is a grey bar that has the actions will remain sticky - to the top of the web page as one scrolls up and down.
16:18:42 <tiffanyburtin> present+
16:19:34 <thelounge> There will be a discussion about where this bar will be placed - possibly before the abstract or the abstract moves up and the sticky bar is just before the main content.
16:20:07 <tiffanyburtin> q+
16:20:15 <thelounge> The community group had mixed views as to where the grey bar should be placed.
16:20:41 <lisa> ack next
16:20:51 <lisa> Q+
16:21:19 <thelounge> Assume single page responsive view - needs to be available on Zoom
16:22:22 <thelounge> Lisa finds it useful to have the table of contents with text highlighted to show where you are when reading the document.
16:23:14 <thelounge> Rain confirmed this would be available as well as the grey sticky menu bar
16:23:27 <lisa> ack next
16:23:45 <thelounge> Rain asked if there should be a vote
16:23:56 <Rain> sticky before the abstract = 1, sticky after the abstract = 2
16:24:03 <Rain> sticky = access bar to toc and expand
16:24:04 <kirkwood> 2
16:24:08 <thelounge> 2
16:24:09 <lisa> 0
16:24:10 <Jan> 2
16:24:11 <Jennie_Delisi> 0 - no preference
16:24:12 <tiffanyburtin> 1
16:26:39 <thelounge> Jan asked about skip nav... the latter will take you to the abstract.
16:26:52 <Jan> I am changing my vote to 1
16:26:53 <kirkwood> want to be able to skip the abstract with a screen reader esp makes sense
16:26:57 <kirkwood> 1
16:27:01 <Jennie_Delisi> Apologies - have to drop for another meeting. Have a good week
16:27:10 <thelounge> I think there is a bit of a worry about the changes to 1
16:27:45 <tiffanyburtin> q+
16:29:20 <lisa> ack next
16:29:21 <thelounge> Skip nav will open up the table of contents so the grey sticky bar does not have to be used for navigation
16:30:15 <thelounge> +1 to go above the abstract
16:30:42 <Jan> If the skip nav goes to the abstract, then a person with no sight might not know that the sticky bar is there if it's before it in the DOM.
16:31:54 <lisa> Q+
16:32:44 <tiffanyburtin> +1 to collapsing the doc Status area
16:32:55 <thelounge> Status of the document  - expanded - can we collapse it in an accordian but this does change the way this type of information is usually allowed to be seen on other documents.
16:34:26 <kirkwood> no concerns
16:34:30 <thelounge> Lisa commented that it could be asked for and there is time as the whole design of the document will probably take a year... try all the other itemsfor discussion and then approach the issue to getting permission to have this part collapsed
16:35:54 <thelounge> After the abstract there are three way finding cards to three main sections - these can be stacked or beside eachother in a wide screen
16:36:24 <lisa> Q?
16:36:31 <lisa> q-
16:37:05 <thelounge> The other option is a list of the three items with a little summary of what is on the pages.  In the community research everyone liked the cards instead of a text list with links
16:37:41 <tiffanyburtin> q+
16:37:49 <thelounge> Cards seemed to be easier to get to content but there were comments about liking the short summaries
16:37:53 <lisa> ack next
16:38:52 <thelounge> Tiffany pointed out that there were numbers in the list - Rain said that actually they are not sections there would be no numbers.
16:39:12 <thelounge> Rain asked for a vote
16:39:28 <Rain> 3 side by side cards = 1, list with summaries = 2
16:39:34 <kirkwood> 1
16:39:38 <thelounge> 1
16:39:47 <lisa> 0
16:39:54 <thelounge> But I agree with Tiffany this is hard...
16:39:55 <tiffanyburtin> I like both and am open to both
16:40:00 <Jan> 1
16:40:25 <thelounge> Cards to be trialled initially
16:40:26 <kirkwood> Woo hoo!!
16:41:26 <thelounge> There may need to be some new patters and a table of contents are much liked as a priming tool
16:41:49 <kirkwood> +1 to “priming tool“ language for TOC
16:43:48 <thelounge> Now the issue is getting the right level of depth for the TOC - option 1 offers 3 layers deep for design and build and looks clean so there can be complexity with lots of subsections such as 10 personas.  Option 2 has not been tested but and example with a narrower level of depth - 2 levels section titles and subsections titles.
16:44:22 <lisa> q+
16:44:46 <thelounge> The section you are on is always highlighted but in Option 2 offers a narrower depth but when you are in the section it then offers the next depth.  - this seems to be preferred.
16:44:53 <tiffanyburtin> I would like option 2 as well
16:46:44 <thelounge> Lisa felt that both ways work but Option 2 is not quite so obvious where something might be - although there is a lot of scrolling in Option 1.  If you have Option 2 you need to have the subsections need to be indented as well as being highlighter when selecting an area
16:46:45 <lisa> Q_
16:46:49 <lisa> q-
16:47:19 <thelounge> Rain mentioned that if you expand All within the document then you need to have the table of contents to expand at the same time.
16:47:37 <thelounge> Lisa felt this would be really helpful so you see the subheadings and the content
16:47:40 <Jan> q+
16:47:43 <tiffanyburtin> Love the idea of tying expand all to also expand all the TOC at the same time.
16:47:58 <thelounge> Collapsed gives you an overview and expanded provides everything visually.
16:48:31 <lisa> ack next
16:49:20 <Jan> q-
16:49:32 <thelounge> May need to have a separate expand table of contents to expand all content
16:49:42 <kirkwood> what is our indicator for expanded/not state?   +-   >    <  ?
16:49:51 <kirkwood> q+
16:49:54 <thelounge> Rain said that this may prevent overloading. Need to separate the two actions
16:50:11 <lisa> ack next
16:51:12 <thelounge> Icons have yet to be confirmed for all the document elements.
16:51:28 <kirkwood> ack kirkwood
16:51:49 <thelounge> Rain said there are severl other decisions to be made... would like to continue with the discussion next week.
16:52:14 <thelounge> May move internationalisation and issue papers to be moved to Jan 13th or later in 2025
16:54:08 <thelounge> There are other meetings - 2 hour meeting Github and issues - pull requests and editing also mental health subgroup meeting at 8am EST - 1pm in UK and 3pm in Israel.  Also subgroup for Internationalisation on Thursday
16:54:45 <lisa> 9 - 11 EST  2 hour meeting Github and issues
16:54:59 <lisa> 11 EST is intenalization subgroup
16:55:13 <thelounge> All on the same call on this channel
16:56:14 <thelounge> Rain requested that we try to read the slides this week as the core needs to be discussed - design and build to understand how it relates to WCAG
16:56:47 <thelounge> 5 main headings Design, Interactions, Functionality, Content, Help.
16:57:28 <Jan> I have to drop for another call. Thanks for all of this great work, Rain. It's very exciting to see this coming together.
16:57:40 <thelounge> Each section heading has a short introduction and then it expands
16:58:12 <thelounge> Option for headings was either 1 one headings or three word headings...
16:58:18 <lisa> q+
16:58:57 <lisa> ack next
17:00:25 <thelounge> So should it be a label of the objective - one word or or objective plus an indication of what it will be - three words e.g. Option 1 'Design' or option 2 'Design is clear'
17:00:48 <thelounge> Lis felt the three words may help with context
17:01:21 <thelounge> So may be there is a need to look carefully at what is included
17:01:33 <thelounge> Rain agreed that may be more time needs to spent on this next week
17:02:49 <thelounge> Rain went on to day that many people liked the three words and actually liked the words.
17:03:56 <lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
17:03:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/09-coga-minutes.html lisa
17:04:03 <thelounge> Lisa felt that it just needed to be easy to understand and clear.
17:04:13 <kirkwood> “Flow is Logical” ai suggest
17:04:16 <lisa> fantastic job rain
17:04:23 <lisa> and thanks EA for scribing
17:04:25 <lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
17:04:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/09-coga-minutes.html lisa