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13:56:09 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:56:10 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
13:57:19 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2024-12-06: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/93edf9b7-d47f-4479-ade4-fb02ed59c421/20241206T230000/
13:57:20 <ivan> Chair: wendy
13:57:20 <ivan> Date: 2024-12-06
13:57:20 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
13:57:21 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2024Dec/0005.html
13:57:21 <ivan> regrets+ RickJ
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14:00:45 <AvneeshSingh> present+
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14:00:50 <ivan> present+
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14:01:38 <wendyreid> regrets+ rickjohnson
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14:02:13 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
14:02:13 <Zakim> Present: toshiakikoike, AvneeshSingh, wendyreid, ivan, shiestyle, MasakazuKitahara, davehall
14:02:15 <Zakim> On IRC I see mgarrish, MasakazuKitahara, gautierchomel, AvneeshSingh, shiestyle, davehall, toshiakikoike, wendyreid, RRSAgent, Zakim, tzviya, ivan, fantasai
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14:02:25 <duga> present+
14:02:31 <ivan> present+ gautier
14:02:47 <ivan> present+ Milena_Risi
14:02:52 <ivan> present+ george
14:02:54 <tzviya> present+
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14:03:35 <ivan> present+ marisa
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14:05:08 <duga> scribe+
14:05:10 <ivan> present+ mattg
14:05:53 <duga> milena: PhD student working on alt text
14:05:56 <George> George has joined #pmwg
14:06:07 <duga> ... and interested broadly in a11y
14:07:00 <duga> wendyreid: as we finalize new charter, want to discuss adding sync media
14:07:02 <ivan> Topic: adding synced media for incubation to the new charter
14:07:22 <duga> wendyreid: over to Marisa for details on current state
14:07:26 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/sync-media-pub/
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14:07:38 <duga> marisa: What had branched off pwg was a new WG
14:07:44 <CharlesL> present+
14:07:53 <duga> ... This group looked at different sync approaches
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14:08:14 <duga> ... today we have SMIL in epub (sync media for narration)
14:08:16 <ivan> present+ hadrien
14:08:25 <duga> ... Lots of people dislike SMIL
14:08:36 <duga> ... But at the time it was the best choice
14:08:48 <duga> ... I no longer think it is the best choice
14:09:12 <duga> ... We have a proposal for using WebVTT (see link in agenda)
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14:09:38 <duga> ... WebVTT is used for captions, but you can also use it for general sync
14:09:41 <Hadrien> present+
14:09:48 <ivan> -> The document Marisa is referring to https://w3c.github.io/sync-media-pub/
14:09:52 <duga> ... Outside of publishing no one uses SMIL
14:10:03 <duga> ... webVTT is widely supported in browsers
14:10:33 <duga> ... It might be reasonable to use in EPUB, though our group didn't look into packaging, etc
14:11:36 <George> q+
14:11:43 <duga> ... Most compelling reason is that someday we should move forward. SMIL has roots in the 90s as a format for the digital talking book, but the world has moved on to other standards
14:11:49 <ivan> q+
14:11:52 <wendyreid> ack George
14:12:25 <duga> George: SMIL is a W3C standard, but it comes from before the 2 implementation rules
14:12:29 <wendyreid> ack iv
14:13:00 <duga> ivan: Technical question - you refer to html 5, is webvtt dependent on html 5?
14:13:25 <duga> marisa: Without doing any research, I would say yes because it is on the media element
14:13:33 <duga> ivan: But media is also in xhtml
14:13:56 <duga> marisa: I don't know. Seems like it would be fine
14:13:58 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:15:01 <duga> ivan: In the charter there are some items that are not necessarily going to be recs in this charter, and there are 3 items in that group. The biggest is whether HTML will be allowed in epub (as opposed to xhtml)
14:15:16 <duga> ... Should we add this work to the charter?
14:15:40 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
14:16:25 <duga> AvneeshSingh: Marisa has done a lot of work in the sync media group and it is always sad to me to see that there wasn't much traction
14:17:03 <duga> ... As the COO of Daisy it would be helpful to know if there is a real business need? Will there be traction this time?
14:17:27 <duga> ... It may be hard to get Reading Systems to switch
14:17:37 <marisa> q+
14:17:38 <shiestyle> q+
14:17:50 <duga> ... Even Daisy was hard to convince to switch to MO over an older SMIL version
14:18:25 <wendyreid> q+
14:18:26 <duga> ... Also, when we see sync media these days, we see it as useful in more places than epub?
14:18:48 <duga> ... Sync is much broader, so maybe it doesn't belong in the epubwg
14:19:01 <wendyreid> ack marisa
14:19:26 <duga> marisa: Asking people to switch is probably not going to be popular
14:19:34 <ivan> q+
14:19:41 <duga> ... I think there is a case for having parallel formats
14:20:03 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
14:20:10 <duga> ... existing implementations would still be fine
14:20:42 <duga> shiestyle: Can we just do this as a note?
14:21:10 <duga> marisa: This would touch on packaging, but I don't have details
14:21:19 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
14:21:39 <duga> wendyreid: We would have to add webvtt as a core media type
14:21:42 <George> q+
14:22:12 <duga> ... Going back to the business need, it is hard to tell. MO books have always been around, but there isn't much growth
14:22:30 <duga> ... one reason is difficulty in making the books. This may help that, as there is more tooling
14:23:02 <marisa> q+
14:23:12 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:23:18 <duga> ... Also new challenges with TTS
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14:24:01 <duga> ivan: On SMIL and webvtt co-existing, we don't have a choice. The charter requires that old features cannot be removed, so SMIL cannot be removed.
14:24:30 <duga> ... Minor thing - from w3c perpsective, going from note to rec is now very hard.
14:25:14 <duga> ... On packaging, do you mean we need to expand to include webvtt, or do you mean the structure itself has to change?
14:25:34 <duga> marisa: I would NEVER suggest we change the format of our most excellent packaging format
14:26:22 <wendyreid> ack Geo
14:26:27 <duga> ... Just some issues around what what needs to be added to the package document
14:26:42 <duga> George: I understand modernizing - do we get new features?
14:26:53 <duga> marisa: Not necessarily, but maybe
14:27:22 <duga> ... One example is a sync of a poem. You can have word, sentence, and stanza sync
14:28:23 <ivan> q+
14:28:36 <ivan> ack marisa
14:28:37 <duga> ... Also when pointing at text, we have always used fragment identifiers which means they are everywhere in the content. wbvtt allows other ids.
14:28:39 <wendyreid> ack marisa
14:29:15 <duga> marisa: On production side, it might be easier to use webvtt.
14:29:46 <duga> ... I just saw a demo of using AI for this, which will probably be getting easier
14:29:49 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:30:36 <duga> ivan: In regards to finer selectors, this may synergize with annotations. New selectors are part of that chartered work
14:31:28 <marisa> q+
14:31:38 <wendyreid> ack marisa
14:31:38 <duga> ivan: Do we agree to add this to the charter? Without obligation to produce a rec there isn't much of a barrier
14:31:39 <wendyreid> q+
14:32:09 <duga> marisa: First thing to look at is some caveats in SMIL -> WebVTT
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14:32:22 <wendyreid> q?
14:32:32 <Hadrien> q+
14:32:35 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
14:32:39 <duga> ... e.g. there are some SMIL docs that are technically allowed, but don't work in webvtt. That should be top of the agenda
14:33:00 <duga> wendyreid: At the very least we should add it to the charter so we can have further discussions
14:33:28 <duga> ... No harm, but it at least signals we want to look at it
14:33:35 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:33:39 <duga> ... But also maybe mention it to the BG
14:33:55 <duga> Hadrien: Looking at the draft proposal, there are some differences.
14:34:35 <duga> ... SMIL is a tree with roles, which allows skipping and escaping. I don't see it i webvtt. Is that by design, or not possible, etc?
14:35:22 <duga> marisa: Section 4.3 covers skipping/escaping
14:35:40 <duga> ... I think these features should be derived from the html
14:35:54 <George> q+
14:35:55 <duga> ... Not really needed in SMIL
14:36:05 <wendyreid> ack George
14:36:12 <duga> ... You could do it in webvtt, but it would be better to get it from the text content
14:36:43 <Hadrien> q+
14:36:57 <duga> George: When DAISY added SMIL it was intended to replace audio books. Audio was the content (audio was king).
14:37:09 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:37:19 <duga> ... The fact that we have text as the main content driver is better
14:37:30 <duga> Hadrien: I agree in some cases
14:37:41 <duga> ... e.g. TTS
14:38:02 <duga> ... but this is trickier since you have to go through two levels to get structural info
14:38:05 <wendyreid> q+
14:38:09 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
14:38:32 <ivan> q+
14:38:44 <duga> wendyreid: This is just a discussion for incubation, but these are all great topics for the chartered group
14:39:04 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:39:15 <Hadrien> q+
14:39:25 <duga> ivan: Thank you to the chair for getting us back on track
14:39:47 <duga> ... Since this has to go to the AC and we want to avoid issues with that
14:40:04 <duga> ... I think we should present this as bringing in webvtt and not making something new
14:40:48 <duga> ... "Adding webvtt functionality to epub" or something like that would be the entry
14:41:10 <duga> ... is that acceptable?
14:41:14 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:42:14 <ivan> q+
14:42:18 <duga> Hadrien: I am not convinced this is the right way to go. Narrowing to just webvtt is a missed opportunity. We should considered business arguments and features
14:42:33 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:42:41 <duga> ... For example comics and a11y might be something we could address with a wider charter
14:43:23 <duga> ivan: I understand and intellectually agree. But complex and open ended charters will lead to "make a CG and incubate there" answers from the AC
14:44:12 <duga> ... Here the message is taking an existing spec and combining it with epub 3, which is more managable for this group
14:44:43 <duga> wendyreid: Ivan is right we are looking at a specific tech, but it is also good to phrase this around sync media in general
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14:44:52 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:44:57 <Hadrien> q+
14:45:16 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
14:45:18 <duga> ... This is also about audio books, etc. So a broader phrasing might be better
14:45:45 <duga> AvneeshSingh: I was also thinking on broader lines
14:45:58 <duga> ... and use this tech as an example instead of only focusing on it
14:46:28 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:46:41 <duga> ... Then all sync media topics can be handled by this group
14:47:27 <duga> Hadrien: We already have an item in the charter that addresses my concerns. So I am connecting it back to things we already have in the charter instead of adding a new item
14:48:02 <duga> wendyreid: Sync is applicable to fixed and reflowable. Ivan and I will work on a PR for this in the charter
14:48:19 <wendyreid> https://github.com/readium/guided-navigation/
14:48:39 <duga> ... Do we want to talk about the agenda comments from Hadrien?
14:49:01 <duga> hadrien: Our work is a little different from what Marisa did
14:49:55 <duga> ... We looked at business cases and ended up at guided navigation. We can parse SMIL (or webvtt) and present them in an abstract way
14:50:12 <duga> ... Thinking in that way has led to changes in other areas
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14:50:15 <wendyreid> q?
14:50:49 <duga> ... Not trying to realign with the web, but instead have found other real issues we can address with the same work
14:50:57 <duga> ... e.g. accessible comics
14:51:42 <wendyreid> q?
14:51:50 <ivan> q+
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14:52:13 <duga> wendyreid: The incubation item we add could cover this as well
14:52:17 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:52:52 <duga> ivan: The proposal Wendy made before should cover this
14:53:23 <duga> ... We will put in a PR, please respond in the next few days so we can go to the AC withing a week
14:53:49 <duga> ... AC vote will likely go to end of January
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14:54:06 <wendyreid> q?
14:54:09 <duga> ... So we would have a new charter in February unless things go sideways
14:54:44 <duga> wendyreid: Do we need a call for consensus to move ahead with the charter?
14:54:50 <duga> ivan: Not really needed
14:55:12 <duga> wendyreid: We will send out the charter, please comment now with issues, concerns, etc
14:55:29 <duga> ... we want everything ready before we go to the AC
14:55:59 <duga> ... we are moving next month's meetings out 1 week
14:56:26 <duga> ... We may need to discuss timing and frequency
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15:05:13 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:05:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/06-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
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