17:03:56 RRSAgent has joined #aria 17:04:00 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/12/05-aria-irc 17:04:00 RRSAgent, make logs Public 17:04:01 Meeting: ARIA WG 17:04:03 agendabot, find agenda 17:04:03 jamesn, OK. This may take a minute... 17:04:04 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b57854a-65cb-421e-b9e0-f9a8da31f160/20241205T130000/ 17:04:04 clear agenda 17:04:04 agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/huhjkn66 17:04:04 agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/mtcdwcjk 17:04:06 agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y 17:04:09 agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates 17:04:11 agenda+ -> [html-aam] Make HTML img accname use “title” text if alt is empty https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2378 17:04:15 agenda+ -> Consider allowing aria-valuetext for combobox role https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2382 17:04:18 agenda+ -> WebKit does not fall back to 'nameFrom: contents' on aria-describedby reference when referenced element contains role="status" thus not announcing content via VoiceOver https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2381 17:56:00 filippo-zorzi has joined #aria 17:56:31 katez has joined #aria 17:58:00 Adam_Page has joined #aria 17:58:49 spectranaut_ has joined #aria 17:59:37 agenda? 18:00:33 present+ 18:01:00 present+ 18:01:03 pkra has joined #aria 18:01:06 present+ 18:01:38 present+ 18:01:59 ray-schwartz has joined #ARIA 18:02:12 present+ 18:02:12 scribenick: hdv 18:02:15 giacomo-petri has joined #aria 18:02:20 present+ 18:02:32 Zakim, take up first item 18:02:32 I don't understand 'take up first item', hdv 18:02:37 Zakim, take up next please 18:02:37 agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/huhjkn66 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:03:10 BGaraventa has joined #aria 18:03:31 scott has joined #aria 18:03:41 jamesn: should the NSAccessibility scroll-bar API be included in mapping for scrollbar role? should probably ask jcraig's input? 18:03:41 present+ BGaraventa 18:04:08 Rahim: feel free to assign to me 18:04:21 present+ 18:04:28 present+ 18:04:31 jamesn: role for aside/section creates infinite loop 18:04:48 spectranaut_: maybe we should move to `html-aam`? 18:04:49 jamesn: ok 18:05:27 spectranaut_: there seem to be some suggestions for fixes 18:06:09 scott: was going to take it on but Anne's comment made me think what people would expect here… do we need an algorithm for this or is it enough to let browsers implement these mappings in their own way? 18:06:33 peterkrautzberger: seems like implementors should chime in 18:06:44 scott: yes all browsers except Ladybird have implemented this 18:06:52 jamesn: maybe we should specify something 18:07:02 peter: seems like nothing is missing in the spec 18:07:15 scott: want to know if this is actually a problem. Implementors would be best to comment on that 18:07:39 spectranaut_: was there a suggestion for a wording change? 18:07:55 scott: to me it seems… these have a default role, are there conditions that would change that role? 18:08:15 Francis_Storr has joined #aria 18:08:33 scott: seems like the OP is looking at it in a way opposite to how I was looking at it 18:08:54 jamesn: then… 'skip self' req is missing from the embeddable control substep (2389) 18:09:03 jamesn: should.I transfer this to accname? 18:09:06 spectranaut_: +1 18:09:51 bryan: I can look at it this afternoon 18:10:18 jamesn: next issue, two necessary steps for name computation are missing, will also. transfer to accname and you, bryan 18:10:59 jamesn: next, spec for computing accessible name doesn't rsult in traversing into hidden usubtrees… this one might be a duplicate, will put in accname as well 18:11:06 bryan: sounds familiar 18:11:53 jamesn: then there's one on AT/AT-SPI2, can I assign to you spectranaut_ ? 18:11:54 spectranaut_: yes 18:12:13 q? 18:12:16 Zakim, take up next please 18:12:16 agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/mtcdwcjk -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:12:42 jamesn: Sarah opened one re aria-checked support in grid cell 18:13:10 mattking: did we agree to do it? 18:13:39 sarahhigley: we did, it's pretty common 18:13:44 mattking: is it cell and row or just cell? 18:13:46 sarahhigley: just cell 18:13:51 mattking: what's the rationale for that? 18:13:58 sarahhigley: because focus goes between cells on a grid 18:14:04 mattking: but on a tree grid could go either way? 18:14:07 katez has joined #aria 18:14:18 sarahhigley: I did debate also putting it on row, but figured on cell would be fine 18:15:37 jamesn: next one, explicitly state UAs must ignore aria-label for slots 18:15:47 jamesn: (PR 2385) 18:16:13 jamesn: who would like to review this? 18:16:15 q+ 18:16:24 keithamus: I can, also had a related issue recently 18:16:41 scott: this probably should be agenda'd as this slot element is messy, it can do different things based on `display` property 18:16:45 ChrisCuellar has joined #aria 18:16:46 ack scott 18:17:14 jamesn: next one, change default role for custom elements 18:17:30 scott: aaron and I wrote this and I think we've covered all of the use cases that we talked about and some more 18:17:34 scott: we'll need implementor reviews 18:17:41 sarah has joined #aria 18:17:49 present+ 18:18:32 jamesn: I wonder if this breaks anything that was previously ignored 18:18:44 q? 18:18:46 Zakim, take up next please 18:18:46 agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:19:01 jamesn: does anyone want to talk about any of these? 18:19:24 jamesn: there's this one… add null for aria-utils checking…  (#49485) 18:19:32 jamesn: does anyone know WPT well and wants to look at it? 18:19:33 spectranaut_: I can 18:19:51 Zakim, take up next 18:19:51 agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:20:10 jamesn: the one scheduled for this afternoon was moved to January 18:20:18 jamesn: do we want any more deep dives in December? 18:20:25 [silence] 18:20:43 jamesn: let's presume deep dives in the new year… if someone really wanted to we could still add one in the next week 18:20:47 Zakim, take up next 18:20:47 agendum 4 was just opened, hdv 18:21:00 Zakim, close item 18:21:00 I don't understand 'close item', hdv 18:21:03 Zakim, close this 18:21:03 I don't understand 'close this', hdv 18:21:04 Zakim, close this item 18:21:04 agendum 4 closed 18:21:05 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:21:05 5. -> [html-aam] Make HTML img accname use “title” text if alt is empty https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2378 [from agendabot] 18:21:10 Zakim, take up next 18:21:10 agendum 5 -- -> [html-aam] Make HTML img accname use “title” text if alt is empty https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2378 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:21:34 jamesn: there's a longer discussion on this 18:22:11 scott: about two years ago as the WG we resolved to that `alt="" title="whatever"` should continue to be exposed as a role none 18:22:22 scott: not everyone 100% agreed with this, but it matched with what @@@ said back then 18:22:42 scott: TLDR, a WPT was created that had the opposite expectation 18:23:13 scott: all of this discussion is about that 18:23:21 scott: decision now is to undo our previous resolution 18:23:32 q+ 18:23:33 q+ 18:23:47 scott: and deal with the potential fallout of that 18:24:12 scott: we're now waiting for folks to align on the new file 18:24:26 scott: I think there's probably a lot of docs now that need to be updated 18:24:36 ack giacomo-petri 18:24:40 scott: to say alt="" needs role presentation all the time 18:25:07 giacomo-petri: there are instances where CMS allows content editors to enter titles, without knowing what it really means…  18:25:19 giacomo-petri: I'm in favour of alt="" as a way to set an image as decorative 18:25:31 mario: we have no other ability to set an image alt to be empty 18:25:33 ack smockle 18:25:50 q+ 18:25:55 q+ 18:26:04 smockle: if you had alt="" with role=none, that's a role that cannot be named, seems in conflict with title 18:26:13 mattking: seems like we'd break the web is alt="" is not always decorative 18:26:51 mattking: we've been teaching people this for decades, to break it now feels like too big of a change for this kind of group to make without consulting the whole world 18:27:00 ack scott 18:27:22 scott: the original fallout from this issue was… I created an issue for defining a way to make a decorative image role, specifically to account for stuff like this 18:28:04 scott: if someone mark it presentational but went to the effort of adding a title attribute, they give signals it is both decorative and has info available. All instances of title that I've seen on images that are decorative are, anecdotally, filenames or info that's already on the page. 18:28:13 scott: in many cases it would make it garbage 18:28:25 q+ 18:28:27 scott: but then others have said that there are instances where people do put useful info in a title attribute 18:29:04 ack sarah 18:29:06 scott: I'd like this to be reverted… it wasn't a decision anyone made, it was a mistake. 18:29:25 ack jamesn 18:29:31 sarah: +1 to what other people said about alt="" 18:29:49 jamesn: I'd need to see title on an image with alt="" where the title was beneficial to anyone 18:30:04 jamesn: and even if it was useful, keyboard users wouldn't be able to access it anyway 18:30:32 jamesn: fixing it for a subset of folks doesn't hlep 18:30:37 s/hlep/help 18:31:09 scott: I linked to 1746 in the issue 18:31:51 aaron: there's a proposal to have a pseudo element for title that would provide this 18:32:02 q? 18:32:21 jamesn: what's the resolution? 18:32:42 scott: probably would be for someone to remove the test, and add a new one that tests the same 18:32:55 Adam_Page: I can do it 18:33:20 scott: then this PR could be closed as wontfix 18:33:23 jamesn: would agree 18:33:31 Zakim, take up next 18:33:31 agendum 6 -- -> Consider allowing aria-valuetext for combobox role https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2382 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:34:25 scott: gist of this issue… for the customisable select we talked about calculating the value 18:34:41 scott: there is work that needs to be done on value calculation… I figured this was one of those instances where HTML AAM would need to call something out 18:35:08 scott: idea is … someone can make a customisable select, the default for value is similar to existing select 18:35:38 scott: but there are instances where someone might want to have a label for their option, and also a description for that option… or an aria-label on the option element, that does not get cloned to the selected content element of the customisable select 18:36:30 scott: only the innercontent of that option gets cloned. In that case folks could hide the content they don't want with CSS shenanigans… or… maybe that's a lot of work, if aria-valuetext was allowed on combobox, which is the default role for customisable select 18:36:41 scott: this is for a specific use case where someone has done a lot of customising for selects 18:36:42 q+ 18:36:56 ack me 18:36:58 sarah has joined #aria 18:36:59 scott: where the browser can't properly guess what someone is trying to do. So we need an easy way to make it accessible 18:37:09 jamesn: I support doing that. 18:37:26 mattking: wonder if it creates another scenario when there is content shown visibly… and then this overrides that content 18:37:45 q+ 18:38:01 mattking: do screenreaders still expose it? 18:38:07 scott: I understand where you're coming from 18:38:14 scott: but I think we already have that problem for aria-label 18:38:17 ack sarah 18:38:52 sarah: like aria-label, with this you can do terrible things, but there are also good use cases. For example,when we show selected information in like tags outside of the combobox 18:39:00 s/like/, like, 18:39:30 sarah: or visually styled text when you have a file attachment but that's visually styled inside the content editable. Some screenreaders will read a very long string of text, would be great to have aria-valuetext to have it not do that 18:39:48 sarah: obvs with many things, aria-valuetext should not be used, but there are cases where it is genuinely useful 18:40:06 +1 to do this, seems the use cases are worth it 18:40:12 giacomo-petri has joined #aria 18:40:16 smockle: is there no other way to do it? 18:40:24 q+ 18:40:26 smockle: can we algorithmically get to the same content? 18:40:48 sarah: a lot of the time, the accname for the selected option is different from what you want displayed in the actual input 18:41:20 sarah: say, you have a combobox of people you're emailing… and each person has the person's name, their role, their out of office status etc… it could show in the popup list of options visually, but once selected, you only need their name 18:41:31 sarah: in our library, we don't even bother to clone 18:41:52 s/in our library/to that extent that, in our library 18:42:39 scott: to add to that… yes you probably could get the content… but if aria-valuetext is provided like aria-label, it would be used, but otherwise whatever text that was in there would get exposed 18:42:59 scott: if someone didn't identify a button part and the browser automatically renders one, the value would be calculated from the selected option element itself 18:43:28 scott: since you can calculate it, someone could do a lot of CSS configuration to only display exactly what they want or add additional content in the option element itself 18:43:28 q? 18:43:31 ack scott 18:43:41 agenda? 18:44:02 scott: but that's a lot of ridiculous work imo; this seems like a good alternative, and cuts down on the amount of work that authors would have to do 18:44:21 jamesn: to progress this… we would allow aria-valuetext on the combobox in the ARIA apec 18:44:41 scott: if we do that I could write the algorithm 18:44:49 smockle: I can! 18:45:04 Zakim, take up next 18:45:04 agendum 7 -- -> WebKit does not fall back to 'nameFrom: contents' on aria-describedby reference when referenced element contains role="status" thus not announcing content via 18:45:07 ... VoiceOver https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2381 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:45:58 scott: people have input fields that have error messages displayed after them 18:46:03 scott: marked up as role alert or role status 18:46:12 scott: references to the input element with aria-describedby 18:46:29 scott: but then if the element has no name it is seen as no content 18:46:50 scott: so I have to tell people don't use role alert, have it as a live region so that the aria-describedby relation works across browseres 18:46:55 jamesn: or stick it as a child 18:47:34 scott: seems like more effort 18:47:46 q? 18:48:00 scott: it's beyond this use case though, we've also talked about accname computation for hyperlinks, same thing but description 18:48:14 scott: for name we traverse, we don't for description 18:48:19 jamesn: should we change it? 18:48:24 jamesn: or is it not worth it? 18:48:29 q? 18:49:48 scott: for consistency's sake it makes sense to align what we do with description with what we do with names 18:49:54 scott: not sure of benefit of not doing it 18:50:18 jamesn: chrome does it differerently? 18:50:28 aaron: we suppress it, but would be a one line change for is to update 18:50:51 aaron: for certain roles, like range or slider,we process the value otherwise we don't, is what I saw in the code 18:50:56 jamesn: is that the same issue? 18:51:13 aaron: oh sorry didn't realise we moved on 18:51:20 aaron: am not familiar with this one 18:51:39 james: from bug description seems like chrome does what we're saying in the issue 18:53:33 aaron: just read it now, yes seems Chrome has the behaviour described in the bug 18:53:54 jamesn: so we'll need comments on this from jcraig and probably jteh as well 18:54:09 q+ 18:54:16 aaron: what if you do aria-describedby on something that doesn't have a role at all in webkit or firefox? seems like a common thing 18:54:54 scott: if someone didn't provide a name browsers wouldn't even try 18:55:11 aaron: generic prohibits a name 18:55:22 sarah: in firefox, accname doesn't work either 18:55:28 sarah: for something with role status 18:56:05 ack Rahim 18:56:06 ack Rahim 18:56:55 Rahim: there was some internal discussion on this; consensus was that behaviour like described in the issue would be the right behaviour 18:57:01 present+ 18:57:25 present+ 18:57:29 Zakim, end meeting please 18:57:29 As of this point the attendees have been smockle, filippo-zorzi, pkra, hdv, Adam_Page, giacomo-petri, BGaraventa, scott, Rahim, sarah, Francis_Storr, katez 18:57:33 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 18:57:34 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/05-aria-minutes.html Zakim 18:57:41 I am happy to have been of service, hdv; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 18:57:41 Zakim has left #aria 21:10:17 ChrisCuellar has joined #aria