13:59:57 RRSAgent has joined #matf 14:00:01 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/12/04-matf-irc 14:00:01 RRSAgent, make logs Public 14:00:03 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ 14:00:03 Zakim, this is MATF December 4, 2024 14:00:03 got it, JJ 14:00:10 Meeting: MATF December 4, 2024 14:00:14 chair+ 14:00:23 I'll be there in exactly the amount of time it takes me to get home from the train station 14:00:34 agenda+ Draft Group Note 14:00:40 agenda+ 3.2.2 On Input 14:00:44 agenda+ 1.1.1 Non-text Content 14:00:49 agenda+ 1.4.1 Use of Color 14:00:53 agenda+ 1.4.3 Contrast (Minimum) 14:01:05 @quintinb hope you live close to the train station :P 14:01:24 Illai has joined #matf 14:01:34 present+ 14:01:48 present+ 14:02:09 Carolina has joined #MATF 14:02:14 present + 14:02:21 Jamie has joined #matf 14:02:32 present+ 14:03:30 regrets+ TimGravemaker 14:03:36 regrets+ Julian 14:03:39 regrets+ Mick 14:03:40 Detlev has joined #matf 14:03:44 regrets+ GleidsonRamos 14:03:51 present+ 14:05:19 scribe: Detlev 14:05:19 scribe+ Detlev 14:05:27 move to next agendum 14:05:27 agendum 1 -- Draft Group Note -- taken up [from JJ] 14:05:47 quintinb has joined #MATF 14:05:50 present+ 14:06:19 JJ: gives update on draft note, was presented to AGWG 14:06:54 Suggestino to link placeholder to GitHub issues (rename link to do that) 14:07:00 Karla has joined #matf 14:07:34 JJ: expand / collapse feature showing normative text fo rWCAG WCAG2ICT, additional guidance 14:07:58 present+ 14:09:06 ...Qualify "applies directly as written" to say it refers to WCAG2ICT 14:09:24 Jamie: Working on abstract ans introduction 14:09:59 ...abstract will be ready for review soon 14:10:58 ...seems useful to follow the structure for WCAG2ICT note but we may vary a bit if needed 14:11:17 ...speak up if you think something is missing 14:11:59 ...John Gibbons wanted to help on terminology 14:12:30 ...what is the pace of sharing this with the public, JJ? 14:13:06 ...sharing internally in WCAG or externally? 14:13:14 q+ 14:14:19 JJ: Will become a group note 14:14:30 ...first working draft planned for Feb 2025 14:14:56 ...some time in Q1 2025 seems realistic 14:15:06 ...hope to get more feedback 14:15:25 ...we can still move forward on SCs 14:15:50 ...the large variation ones will take more time 14:16:09 ...aim: get it published at the end of 2025 14:17:05 JJ: it is fine to share the current URL of the draft - but explain that it is just an editors' draft 14:17:21 ...just this group's opinion 14:18:16 JJ: Someone from LevelAccess will present tomorrow and refer to it 14:18:26 ack Joe_Humbert 14:18:29 q+ 14:18:59 Joe: 2 question: in WCAG2ICT they add notes for different SCs - do we need that a well? 14:19:46 JJ: they have grey notes and green notes (thise are added) 14:19:57 ...numbering seems odd 14:20:48 Question 2: Ho long does it usually take, any input from Kevin so we can dubmit it to get it out by the end of 2025 14:21:29 JJ: We are in CfC phase ending in December 14:21:50 ...final phase takes longer 14:21:59 ACTION: Add new estimates to timeline for publishing 14:22:20 Joe: if we want the full thing published we might need to finalise all SCs by mid year if it takes 5 months 14:22:54 JJ: will double-check timeline with Keving and AGWG 14:23:11 ack Jamie 14:24:45 Jamie: The link to the Editors draft note and the link a the top go to two differnent places. Should be the same location and a unified name to be less confusing 14:25:26 JJ: maybe change side bar 14:25:49 Jamie: just pointing it out, possible confusion 14:25:50 ACTION: Indicate Editor's draft in Respec (red sidebar + subtitle) 14:26:43 JJ: "This version" link currently does not work 14:26:49 move to next agendum 14:26:49 agendum 2 -- 3.2.2 On Input -- taken up [from JJ] 14:27:15 JJ: labelled as small variation 14:27:49 ...WCAG2ICT says applies as written 14:28:05 ...we discussed what counts as User Interface Component 14:28:08 Are components different in mobile? 14:28:27 Seems legit to me 14:28:44 JJ: reading UIC definition in WCAG 14:29:18 ...comparing with 3.2.1 On focus 14:29:46 dotjay has joined #matf 14:29:53 q+ 14:30:16 present+ 14:30:22 q- 14:31:22 Detlev: mentioning two types of focus, so this may need clarification 14:31:53 JJ: Reading the WCAG2ICT note for 3.2.1 14:32:07 q+ 14:32:15 ack Joe_Humbert 14:32:48 Joe: Reviewing definitions UIC "users perceive as control" - but don't define control 14:33:35 Agree, the example in the definition of "user interface component" is not pretty clear, maybe we can change it 14:33:38 Joe_Humbert: definition of contro needed or new example - example confusing 14:33:42 q+ 14:34:00 ack Jamie 14:34:04 JJ: We had similar difficulties with definitions 14:34:49 Jamie: We would not be keeping it as written - the example should be more oriented at mobile app context 14:35:09 ...element and control are nti the same, element is broader 14:35:27 ...we vary from WCAG2ICT variations at least in definitions 14:35:39 ACTION: Clarify "user interface component" definition in mobile context 14:36:15 JJ: change of context definitionmay need update - UA not applicable - viewport definition different 14:36:37 ...content is also fouced on web content 14:37:05 q+ 14:37:05 ACTION: Clarify "change of context" definition in mobile context (used in 3.2.1 and 3.2.2) 14:37:07 ...in 3.2.1 and 3.2.2 - only places where it appears 14:37:38 ...user interface component used more broadly 14:37:39 ack dotjay 14:39:39 Jon: a change of setting implies that the component changes the context - web issues around on input these context would have a value attached to it... does it apply to this context? 14:40:48 JJ: We would look at a subset of UIC - so it onl yapplies to those that change settings - nut all components have settings - a button would not fall under this 14:40:58 ACTION: take a closer look at what "Changing the setting" means in 3.2.2 14:41:34 JJ: furthe rcomments? 14:41:36 move to next agendum 14:41:36 agendum 3 -- 1.1.1 Non-text Content -- taken up [from JJ] 14:42:04 JJ: medium variation 14:42:53 ...not-text broader than images, discussion on emojs 14:43:21 JJ: Reading WCAG 1.1.1 SC 14:43:38 ...goes through situations 14:43:50 ...WCAG2ICT applies as written 14:44:10 ...wonder whether it is true that CAPTCHAS are web-only 14:44:43 JJ: Quintin mentioned haptic feedback 14:44:58 present+ quintinb 14:45:14 Quintin: No further comments 14:45:49 JJ: Interesting that haptics are excluded - are they sensory experience or notification... 14:46:11 Quintin: contextually useful nit can't be described in a doc like WCAG 14:46:34 quintinb has joined #MATF 14:46:39 ...security plays a role in it if I don't get any feedback 14:47:22 JJ: We mentioned the types of non-text content and wondered if there are specific things on mobile less common in web 14:47:37 ...haptics might be such a case 14:48:29 ...not sure if it would be helpful to add if it is already in other SCS like sensory characteristics 14:48:40 ...cold apply directly as written 14:49:08 Vote: Apply 1.1.1 directly as written? 14:49:16 +1 14:49:19 Not? 14:49:21 +1 14:49:23 +1 14:49:24 +1 14:49:25 +0 not sure 14:49:27 +1 14:49:34 lol 14:49:46 q is the forgotten letter 14:49:47 +0 also unsure currently 14:52:24 Android supports programmatic linking of associated text 14:52:26 How to do https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Techniques/aria/ARIA10 in mobile apps 14:52:31 +q 14:52:36 ack Illai 14:53:04 Ilai: referred to content grouping issue 14:53:36 Illai: in the apple developer documentation 14:54:21 ...grouping Images and associated text 14:54:43 Yeah you would just group these and/or make the image decorative 14:54:49 https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelines/accessibility#Navigation 14:54:58 Human Interface Guidlines for Image alt text: https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelines/accessibility#Navigation 14:55:47 Illai: text alternative issue phrased as grouping issue 14:56:59 q+ 14:57:24 JJ: not mandatory to give images the role image - but it would help 14:57:26 ack Jamie 14:58:30 Jamie: Apple example on that page strange - example seems to imply it is one description with two images? 14:58:59 ...focus grouping could be expanded on in our definition 14:59:01 I think the example on the Apple docs is an abridged speech output that’s simply trying to point out ocntent order 14:59:17 s/ocntent/content/ 14:59:32 JJ: If not grouped you would have the wrong focus order 15:00:10 q? 15:00:13 Illai: thats why it was treated as a focus order issue not so much alternative text 15:00:17 Zakim, close the queue 15:00:17 ok, JJ, the speaker queue is closed 15:00:27 A caption may be an appropriate alt text, so the accessible name for the image *may* be empty *if* the caption provides that appropriately. At times, the alt and caption may be different. 15:00:29 android:labelFor works for an image only it it is part of a button or if it has a contentDescription. Images with no contentDescription are treated as decorative 15:00:49 announces as "image for [linked text labe]" 15:01:00 Illai: unless the image is define das empty its role should be announced 15:01:00 ACTION: Research Android and iOS API's for linking visual image captions to the image 15:01:01 q+ 15:01:10 I have to go, apologies! 15:02:57 Zakim whispers to Jamie that the speaker queue has been closed, hahah 15:02:57 could have grouping requirement added at 1.3.1 15:03:31 Illai: real impact is in terms of meaningful sequence 15:03:48 JJ: often the solution for 1.3.2 issues would be grouping 15:04:52 JJ: Consider adding note to Info and Relationships and/or Focus Order about grouping as a solution or requirements 15:05:34 Illai: Meaningful Sequence seems most fitting 15:06:58 JJ: Mentioning differences in Principle 1 and 2 for Focus Order and Meaningful Sequence 15:07:53 Jamie has joined #matf 15:07:59 present+ 15:10:48 Illai: Potentially add to Principle 3 - Understandable or Principle 4 - Robust 15:12:04 ACTION: Add grouping requirement to 1.3.2 as Note on Text change 15:17:02 rrsagent, make minutes 15:17:04 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/04-matf-minutes.html JJ 15:17:46 rrsagent, bye 15:17:46 I see 7 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/04-matf-actions.rdf : 15:17:46 ACTION: Add new estimates to timeline for publishing [1] 15:17:46 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/04-matf-irc#T14-21-59 15:17:46 ACTION: Indicate Editor's draft in Respec (red sidebar + subtitle) [2] 15:17:46 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/04-matf-irc#T14-25-50 15:17:46 ACTION: Clarify "user interface component" definition in mobile context [3] 15:17:46 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/04-matf-irc#T14-35-39 15:17:46 ACTION: Clarify "change of context" definition in mobile context (used in 3.2.1 and 3.2.2) [4] 15:17:46 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/04-matf-irc#T14-37-05-1 15:17:46 ACTION: take a closer look at what "Changing the setting" means in 3.2.2 [5] 15:17:46 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/04-matf-irc#T14-40-58 15:17:46 ACTION: Research Android and iOS API's for linking visual image captions to the image [6] 15:17:46 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/04-matf-irc#T15-01-00-1 15:17:46 ACTION: Add grouping requirement to 1.3.2 as Note on Text change [7] 15:17:46 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/12/04-matf-irc#T15-12-04