16:19:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbg
16:19:33 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/12/03-pbg-irc
16:19:33 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:19:34 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Business Group
16:21:04 <ivan_> ivan_ has joined #pbg
16:35:33 <ivan2> ivan2 has joined #pbg
16:55:32 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pbg
16:56:31 <liisamk> Meeting: Publishing Business Group
16:56:48 <liisamk> Date: 3 December 2024
16:57:03 <liisamk> Chair: Liisa McCloy-Kelley
16:57:10 <liisamk> present+
16:57:52 <wolfgang> wolfgang has joined #pbg
16:59:45 <ivan> present+ wolfgang, daihei
16:59:48 <ivan> present+
17:01:00 <ivan> present+ gautier
17:01:12 <ivan> present+ Tom_Shawver
17:01:28 <ivan> present+ george
17:01:58 <ivan> present+ joshua
17:02:17 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #pbg
17:02:27 <ivan> scribe+ gautierchomel
17:02:33 <gautierchomel> present+
17:03:02 <George> George has joined #pbg
17:03:16 <ivan> present+ angela
17:03:55 <gautierchomel> liisamk: the TDM conversation will extend in january because key persons are missing today, they sent a regrets. But we would like to ask who uses TDM protocole.
17:04:19 <wolfgang> s/protocole/protocol/
17:04:25 <George> present+
17:04:28 <ivan> q+
17:04:36 <gautierchomel> liisamk: I start, PRH started use TDM protocole. ,We put opt out in epub files and look possibilities to add it to ONIX.
17:04:41 <liisamk> ack ivan
17:04:57 <Daihei> Daihei has joined #pbg
17:05:04 <gautierchomel> ivan: do you have any feedback about those who collect data?
17:05:06 <Daihei> present+
17:05:44 <wolfgang> s/look possibilities/look for possibilities/
17:05:46 <gautierchomel> liisamk: content has been mined before, we don't know wich proportion.
17:05:53 <gautierchomel> q+
17:06:09 <gautierchomel> liisamk: but no direct feedback that they care about the TDM.
17:06:50 <gautierchomel> liisamk: EU language is vague, but clearly states that if the statement exist it should be respected.
17:07:00 <liisamk> ack gautierchomel
17:08:07 <liisamk> https://w3c.github.io/tdm-reservation-protocol/docs/adopters.html
17:08:40 <George> q+
17:08:48 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel: at a conference last week, a speaker mentioned that they controlled and found that the TDM protocole on theyre webpage was respected by chatGPT. To be confirmed and I'll try to find a clearer reference.
17:09:00 <liisamk> ack George
17:09:12 <wolfgang> s/theyre/their/
17:09:29 <ivan> q+
17:09:42 <gautierchomel> George: if this machine readable statement are respected, will they be standardised and should we add it to the epub next charter ?
17:09:45 <liisamk> ack ivan
17:10:23 <thelounge> thelounge has joined #pbg
17:11:12 <gautierchomel> ivan: Yes, it should be standardised, to be strong enought. I don't think it is a subject for epub WG because TDM goes way beyond digital publishing.
17:12:51 <gautierchomel> George: as a follow up we will have to reference it in the epub spec.
17:13:18 <gautierchomel> ivan: it could be in a year, a year and a half.
17:13:36 <wolfgang> wolfgang has joined #pbg
17:14:34 <Leslie> Leslie has joined #pbg
17:15:16 <gautierchomel> joshuaTallent: there's an obvious value to have something in the OPF and in the ONIX.
17:15:47 <gautierchomel> q+
17:16:04 <liisamk> ack gautierchomel
17:17:04 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel: in Europe we ear a lot about TDM rep protocole, it is adopted by biggest publishers and recomanded by distributors.
17:17:19 <ivan> s/protocole/protocol/
17:17:22 <wolfgang> s/ ear/hear/
17:17:42 <gautierchomel> liisamk: I see TDM rep easy to adopt technically
17:17:48 <wolfgang> s/recomanded/recommended/
17:18:40 <gautierchomel> liisamk: I think other protocoles proposed are complers to implement. That's probably the reason why we don't see them used.
17:18:58 <wolfgang> s/complers/complex/
17:19:07 <ivan> q+
17:19:16 <liisamk> ack ivan
17:19:30 <Leslie> q+
17:20:22 <gautierchomel> ivan: actual TDM rep protocol is very restrictive, if set up it allows no use. This is the kind of issue a specification should adress.
17:20:56 <liisamk> ack Leslie
17:20:57 <gautierchomel> ivan: I agree the simplicity of TDM Rep favors adoption, we should not make it more complex.
17:21:10 <wolfgang> s/adress/address/
17:21:50 <gautierchomel> Leslie: we clarify thru contracts when we have commercial relations. Per example with kobo.
17:22:12 <wolfgang> s/thru/through/
17:22:38 <wolfgang> s/kobo/Kobo/
17:22:40 <gautierchomel> liisamk: UK PA is also pushing for adoption
17:23:01 <gautierchomel> liisamk: both in EPUB and ONIX
17:23:42 <Leslie> q+
17:24:12 <ivan> q+
17:24:18 <ivan> ack Leslie
17:24:21 <gautierchomel> Leslie: I would like to have a clarification. Should we double with human readable statement ?
17:25:08 <gautierchomel> liisamk: yes, I would say both machine and human readable are better
17:26:11 <ivan> present+ tzviya
17:26:14 <gautierchomel> ivan: i don't think TDM rep adresses the human readable part. As it is very simple, deriving a human redable sentence should be feasible easily but i don't know the plans.
17:26:18 <ivan> present+ billk
17:27:03 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbg
17:27:24 <gautierchomel> tzviya: i have concerns about disconection between publishers practices and reading system usage of it.
17:27:54 <gautierchomel> liisamk: it's to be defined within a contract between commercial partners.
17:27:54 <wolfgang> s/disconection/disconnection/
17:28:29 <Leslie> q+
17:28:35 <wolfgang> s/publishers practices/publishers' practices/
17:28:55 <ivan> For the minutes: the current TDM specification is at https://www.w3.org/community/reports/tdmrep/CG-FINAL-tdmrep-20240202/
17:29:17 <liisamk> ack ivan
17:29:24 <liisamk> ack Leslie
17:33:51 <gautierchomel> liisamk: so conversation to be continued when key persons are able to join. Also to mention there is a talk today in Brussels around those questions. Hopefully we'll have more details in the next month.
17:34:12 <ivan> q+
17:34:22 <liisamk> ack ivan
17:36:29 <gautierchomel> ivan: TDM rep is a framework, it is not supposed to adress every protection usecases. There are other vocabularies for others problems. We should be carreful to not overload TDM Rep with all our protection problems.
17:36:53 <wolfgang> s/usecases/use cases/
17:37:24 <wolfgang> s/for others/for other problems/
17:37:58 <gautierchomel> liisamk: Next subject is about DRM and accessibility
17:37:58 <ivan> Topic: DRM and A11y
17:38:36 <George> q+
17:38:37 <gautierchomel> liisamk: it has been pushed by some actors that DRM is not accessible and should be removed to garanty accessibility. This is not true.
17:38:45 <liisamk> ack George
17:38:45 <ivan> i/liisamk: the TDM conversation will extend/Topic: TDM Protocol/
17:39:11 <wolfgang> s/garanty/guarantee/
17:39:41 <gautierchomel> George: I read applebook, vitalsource books, redshelf books without problem. The DRM they place limit me to theire applications. I cannot read outside of theire applications but it is not an accessibility problem...
17:40:03 <wolfgang> s/limit me/limits me/
17:40:13 <wolfgang> s/theire/their/
17:40:22 <gautierchomel> ... we have walked a lot since DRM was denying content extraction for assistive technologies. It is not a problem today
17:40:25 <gautierchomel> q+
17:40:37 <ivan> q+ Tzviya
17:40:50 <liisamk> ack gautierchomel
17:40:50 <ivan> q+ Leslie
17:41:07 <Leslie> Leslie has joined #pbg
17:41:27 <George> q+
17:41:42 <liisamk> ack Leslie
17:42:07 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel: just to mention that LCP is now working on at least two braille displays. So yes the problem is more about interoperability than accessibility and we are making progress.
17:42:41 <gautierchomel> Leslie: I guess this came from Germany. I would like to have official statements to refer to.
17:42:55 <gautierchomel> liisamk: we have many exemples of working situations.
17:42:56 <liisamk> ack Tzviya
17:43:49 <Tom> q+
17:43:50 <gautierchomel> tzviya: that may come from legislation mentioning DRM. It is about interpreting the law.
17:43:50 <wolfgang> s/exemples/examples/
17:43:55 <liisamk> ack George
17:45:51 <liisamk> ack Tom
17:45:53 <gautierchomel> George: if you rely on a old DRM solution, it will not be accessible. It's a legacy and it's a problem... The other point is interoperability that can cause hurdle because changing application raises problems. It's a bigger problem for people relying on assistive technologies.
17:46:09 <wolfgang> s/a old/an old/
17:47:48 <gautierchomel> TomShawver: i implemented DRM that were problematics, that was on publishers request. We are ready to do better, but we are driven by what publishers ask for.
17:48:11 <wolfgang> s/problematics/problematic/
17:48:24 <Leslie> q+
17:48:41 <wolfgang> s/publishers request/publishers' request/
17:48:41 <liisamk> ack Leslie
17:48:53 <gautierchomel> liisamk: it is probably a messaging issue, we should be able to better communicate that DRM itself is not the problem. It's about which and how it is used.
17:49:08 <gautierchomel> q+
17:49:31 <liisamk> q+
17:49:38 <liisamk> ack guatier
17:49:44 <liisamk> ack gautierchomel
17:49:47 <ivan> ack gautierchomel
17:50:43 <liisamk> ack liisamk
17:51:23 <George> q+
17:51:24 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel: https://www.edrlab.org/readium-lcp/ has some arguments about LCP as a DRM preserving accessibility.
17:51:44 <gautierchomel> q+
17:51:49 <liisamk> ack George
17:52:38 <gautierchomel> George: I'm happy to do what ever can help. As a person. That's not a WAI or a DAISY statement.
17:53:10 <liisamk> ack gautierchomel
17:54:36 <ivan> Topic: Charter
17:54:51 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel: also to mention that sometime publishers are not aware that their collections are available under an interoperable accessibility friendly DRM.
17:55:36 <gautierchomel> ivan: we have to find a third co chair...
17:58:07 <gautierchomel> ... one issue is what to add for visual narratives and the possibility to combine what is today FXL with webtoon needs. The other big thing is to add portable annotation system. We don't know yet if it will be in the c ore document or a separate one. There are also several small things that we will be able to adress.
17:58:38 <gautierchomel> ivan: goal is to have a review cycle by end of january.
17:59:36 <gautierchomel> liisamk: next meeting january 21th to follow up
18:00:04 <ivan> Charter proposal: http://localhost:8001/LocalData/github/Publishing/publ-maintenance-wg-charter/
18:00:11 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:00:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/03-pbg-minutes.html ivan
20:08:49 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbg
23:59:23 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pbg
23:59:56 <Daihei> Daihei has joined #pbg