14:50:42 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #fxl-a11y
14:50:47 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/12/03-fxl-a11y-irc
14:50:48 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:50:49 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid
14:51:02 <wendyreid> meeting: FXL Accessibility Task Force Meeting
14:51:10 <wendyreid> date: 2024-12-03
14:51:22 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
14:55:25 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #fxl-a11y
14:58:39 <CircularKen> CircularKen has joined #fxl-a11y
15:03:18 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino has joined #fxl-a11y
15:03:23 <gpellegrino> present+
15:03:31 <gautierchomel> present+
15:03:43 <CircularKen> present+
15:04:09 <wendyreid> scribe+ CircularKen
15:04:30 <CircularKen> wendyreid: ken is scribe
15:04:40 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2669
15:05:05 <wendyreid> https://cdn.statically.io/gh/w3c/epub-specs/reformatting/epub33/fxl-a11y-tech/index.html
15:05:32 <CircularKen> wendyreid: update to the document has been made with revised structure
15:06:22 <wendyreid> present+
15:06:27 <CircularKen> content accessibility split into 2 sections -  programmatic and visual
15:06:29 <gautierchomel> q+
15:06:32 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel
15:07:48 <CircularKen> gautierchomel: the split I suggested was to be made to the main document but the stucture these should mirrored here
15:07:58 <CircularKen> wendyreid: will do!
15:09:24 <gpellegrino> +1 to gautier
15:09:25 <CircularKen> gautierchomel: techniques for reading system is a different audience, and has no place in this techniques document, should be separate doc
15:09:39 <JonasLillqvist> JonasLillqvist has joined #fxl-a11y
15:10:31 <CircularKen> wendyreid: what else do we need to add?
15:11:37 <CircularKen> gautierchomel: I think we should be more explicit on content on double page spreads and crossing pages
15:15:19 <CircularKen> wendyreid: we have had feedback that reading order for EOUB and HTML is slightly different. Programmatically on the page vs the the reading in the EPUB spine
15:16:21 <wendyreid> scribe+
15:16:44 <wendyreid> CircularKen: Tables, how should FXL represent tables, placing them in the page, having them described
15:17:40 <wendyreid> ... is it allowable to place tables in an iframe?
15:17:57 <wendyreid> wendyreid: What is the use case for putting a table in an iframe?
15:18:14 <wendyreid> CircularKen: Current software doesn't allow you to make tables
15:19:02 <wendyreid> ... it would be easier to export and place a table
15:19:44 <wendyreid> hadrien: I would recommend to never use a table
15:19:50 <wendyreid> CircularKen: Why?
15:20:26 <wendyreid> hadrien: Reading systems use webviews, and multiple iframes, it gets complex
15:20:51 <wendyreid> CircularKen: In our techniques doc, our recommendation is to use native HTML tables
15:21:13 <wendyreid> hadrien: If a table isn't possible in HTML, using aria roles would fill in if needed
15:21:34 <wendyreid> ... preference is to use the HTML element, but can use ARIA if needed
15:22:56 <CircularKen> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/ARIA/Roles/table_role
15:23:50 <wendyreid> JonasLillqvist: Is there a reason for the table issue in InDesign?
15:24:00 <wendyreid> CircularKen: Pixel-perfect styling
15:24:16 <wendyreid> JonasLillqvist: Is it not possible to do it with the styling?
15:24:43 <wendyreid> CircularKen: I was looking at it as a workaround, for tables it would need to be accepted that it won't be pixel perfect
15:24:59 <wendyreid> hadrien: If you use the right roles, it is possible
15:25:13 <wendyreid> CircularKen: It might be easier to help them in InDesign, vs having to do it after
15:25:36 <wendyreid> hadrien: Benefit of ARIA in this case, you can make it look however you want visually, but with the screen reader functionality
15:26:43 <wendyreid> wendyreid: Can they insert tables in reflow? It's just a matter of styling
15:26:49 <wendyreid> CircularKen: Yes, and it works well.
15:27:22 <wendyreid> hadrien: I could also imagine a highly-stylized table, but it's still a table, some styling might escape the native element
15:28:22 <wendyreid> wendyreid: Sounds like a gap in InDesign, gpellegrino have you mentioned this to them?
15:28:42 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: We can make them aware of it, and some of these recommendations might work
15:30:05 <gpellegrino> q+
15:30:49 <wendyreid> wendyreid has joined #fxl-a11y
15:30:52 <wendyreid> JonasLillqvist: we have some remaining issues with reflowable tables too
15:30:55 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
15:31:15 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: Just an overall comment, I don't think we should write these guidelines for InDesign
15:31:24 <wendyreid> ... these should be the best you can achieve with HTML and CSS
15:31:36 <wendyreid> ... the objective, but might not be feasible right now
15:31:44 <wendyreid> ... we want the authoring tools to produce this code
15:31:58 <wendyreid> ... we shouldn't let the limits of today's tools impact us
15:32:08 <wendyreid> CircularKen: I know what you mean, I think I agree
15:32:33 <wendyreid> ... it does mean that someone looking at this document for best practices, it might mean they need to hand code their books
15:32:38 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: There are other tools out there
15:32:55 <gautierchomel> q+
15:33:05 <wendyreid> CircularKen: I agree, show the best way to do it, but the how to actually do them, without a way, it loses its importance
15:33:17 <wendyreid> ... without the tools, we've run into this challenge with EPUB a lot
15:33:38 <wendyreid> ... techniques should maybe mention the best outcome, and the current limitations
15:33:40 <gpellegrino> q+
15:33:56 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel
15:34:11 <wendyreid> gautierchomel: Full agree that we should be software agnostic
15:34:45 <CircularKen6> CircularKen6 has joined #fxl-a11y
15:35:12 <wendyreid6> wendyreid6 has joined #fxl-a11y
15:35:21 <Hadrien> Hadrien has joined #fxl-a11y
15:35:27 <Hadrien> present+
15:35:35 <wendyreid6> q?
15:35:56 <CircularKen6> gautierchomel: I think the documentation shold be software agnostic
15:36:04 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
15:37:11 <CircularKen6> gpellegrino: I agree we need to keeo seperate the 3 sections prcincipes, techinqies, and the guide for auuthoring tools
15:37:55 <JonasLillqvist> q+
15:38:01 <wendyreid> ack JonasLillqvist
15:38:11 <CircularKen6> wendyreid: yes we wnat to be hopefule and point authoring tools to the best practices
15:38:48 <CircularKen6> JonasLillqvist: there is still value in showing the limitations of current authoring tools
15:41:05 <CircularKen6> gautierchomel: agree there is value to have this elsewhere
15:42:04 <CircularKen6> wendyreid: agree that software is not to be mentioned in this techniques doc
15:42:38 <CircularKen6> wendyreid: we can genarlise and say 'current layout software' limitations
15:43:56 <CircularKen6> JonasLillqvist: footnotes and endnotes work differently can this be mentioned?
15:46:50 <CircularKen6> CircularKen6: how shoud we mention accessibility implementations of interactions?
15:47:08 <CircularKen6> wendyreid: if we build well then can add a11y
15:47:43 <CircularKen6> Hadrien: interactivity can break many reading systems
15:48:51 <wendyreid> CircularKen6: Table of contents, if you have a long TOC that spans pages, it's going to be a challenge vs reflow
15:52:34 <CircularKen6> Hadrien: yes, a visual table of contents that spans multiple pages is not a navigation document
15:53:12 <CircularKen6> CircularKen6: worth an additional section in 2.3 navigation
15:58:10 <CircularKen6> Hadrien: in EPUB we are indebted to our resource based approach. Truy in RFL but much more in FXL as there are more resources
15:59:03 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
15:59:03 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been gpellegrino, gautierchomel, CircularKen, wendyreid, Hadrien
15:59:05 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:59:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/03-fxl-a11y-minutes.html Zakim
15:59:13 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:59:13 <Zakim> Zakim has left #fxl-a11y
15:59:14 <wendyreid> present+ JonasLillqvist
15:59:24 <wendyreid> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:02:56 <wendyreid> wendyreid has left #fxl-a11y