19:04:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
19:04:21 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/12/03-aria-apg-irc
19:04:21 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
19:04:22 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
19:04:34 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
19:04:45 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
19:04:52 <jugglinmike> present+ lola
19:05:06 <jugglinmike> present+ Adam_Page
19:05:49 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg
19:06:27 <jugglinmike> present+ CurtBellew
19:06:31 <jugglinmike> topic: Setup and Review Agenda
19:06:35 <jugglinmike> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/December-3,-2024-Agenda
19:06:54 <jugglinmike> mck: Next meeting: December 10
19:07:04 <arigilmore> arigilmore has joined #aria-apg
19:07:43 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria-apg
19:07:56 <jugglinmike> s/mck/Matt_King/
19:08:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Any requests for changes to the agenda?
19:08:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll stick to the agenda as planned
19:08:20 <jugglinmike> topic: Publication planning
19:08:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Here's the milestone for the next publication: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/milestone/36
19:08:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have four things planned. Two are done and ready to ship, and two are in the works
19:09:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In the works we have the high-contrast work and the changes related to the slider
19:09:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The pull request for the slider is looking good, so I expect to merge that soon
19:09:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That just leaves the high contrast practice, which we'll talk about in a moment
19:10:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That seems like everything, unless someone here knows about something that I'm not aware of
19:10:25 <jugglinmike> present+ arigilmore
19:10:30 <jugglinmike> Topic: PR 2991 - Practice Page for Supporting High Contrast
19:10:37 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2991
19:10:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I expected to be further along on editorial work for this
19:11:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There is still some editing that I think needs to be done, but I want to get reviewers assigned so that people can start looking and providing comments
19:12:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There's also the tests to consider. We have six tests which are failing, and we need to resolve that within the next few days (if we want to publish next week)
19:12:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Slipping on this would also change the review schedule
19:13:04 <jugglinmike> jongund: It's really more like three tests (since it's running for both push and pull request). There are linting failures for CSS and HTML. Also the link checker is failing. Why is that...?
19:14:16 <jugglinmike> s/jongund:/Matt_King:/
19:14:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: howard-e do these failures prevent the preview from including the latest changes?
19:14:47 <siri> siri has joined #aria-apg
19:14:50 <jugglinmike> howard-e: No, the shouldn't
19:15:00 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I'm also going through and leaving a review on some changes
19:15:45 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I just took a look at the failure from the link checker. That might be spurious, so I'll try re-running. I wonder if the way the link is written is confusing the link checker
19:15:54 <jugglinmike> howard-e: The others seems to be related to formatting
19:16:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Formatting issues should be easy to fix
19:16:17 <jugglinmike> jongund: Got it. I'll fix them
19:16:47 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I would like to get at least two (but ideally three) people to read this text in detail and identify anything that ought to be changed prior to publication
19:17:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Because this is a practice page and not an example, your review is essentially editorial in nature. We want to be sure that the text is clear and that it serves the goals of the APG effectively. The main thing is we want this to be useful to our audience
19:18:04 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: I'd love to review this. After briefly skimming it, it looks fantastic
19:18:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Great! I'm adding you as a reviewer
19:18:40 <siri> can you give link to bug?
19:19:08 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: I can take a look
19:23:27 <jugglinmike> topic: Issue 3154 - Developing a Keyboard Interface for charts and interactive graphics
19:23:44 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3154
19:23:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This issue was originally reported to the mailing list
19:24:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The first question, "what kind of patterns exist that are related to visualizations?"
19:24:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think the answer to that is, essentially, "there are none."
19:24:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There's also a question about which things should be focusable
19:25:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The only thing that I've seen out there that's reusable and that I have experience with is Highcharts
19:26:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I won't comment on my personal opinions regarding that library
19:26:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't know if we want to dive into this space with the APG
19:27:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't know if we can make effective guidance here given our current capabilities. It would not be straightforward--it would take a lot of effort.
19:27:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Can we answer these questions directly, or do we just feel it's out of scope for APG, or does anyone in the Task Force feel inspired to take this on?
19:28:14 <jugglinmike> jongund: I think we would need a group of experts (including, for example, someone from Highcharts) to gather perspectives...
19:28:40 <jugglinmike> jongund: Does anyone know of other experts in the field of accessible visualizations
19:28:51 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: We have a ton of experts like that at Oracle
19:29:19 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: Their accessibility techniques have varying levels of success
19:29:48 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: Moving from one node to another (for example) involves a lot of keyboard knowledge
19:30:01 <jugglinmike> siri: Is their work publicly available?
19:30:32 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: Sure. If you search for "Jet" in Oracles public library, you'll find a ton of visualization components that demonstrate some of these strategies
19:31:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The reporter talks about pan, zoom, rotate, adding data points, removing data points, etc. Do your patterns address those sorts of things?
19:31:49 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: I don't know about some of the distinctions there (e.g. pan versus zoom), but I think the patterns might address some
19:32:19 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: Similarly, I don't really know about "drilling down." I can't think of any examples where we do something like that. Though to be fair, there are a ton of components and only one of me.
19:32:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Do you use roles in the components? I mean, beyond the "application" role at the highest level?
19:33:02 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: Yes, we do. It all depends on the application--how it's built and what's included
19:33:22 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: Typically, anywhere you want to include some kind of a label, we'll have an ARIA role
19:33:44 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: I'm not familiar with Highcharts, so I don't know what to compare it to
19:34:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In Highcharts, there are labels and descriptions. I don't always agree with their design decisions, though I generally recognize why they made them
19:34:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I imagine they consider landmark regions the best-supported way of annotation. I just don't like how many regions that creates
19:35:49 <jugglinmike> jongund: I would be willing to organize a kind of task force meeting in early 2025. I know a contributor to Highcharts, and it sounds like CurtBellew might be interested in joining, too
19:36:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We touched on this at TPAC this year. James N was trying to corral interested parties. He might appreciate your assistance in that effort, jongund
19:36:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It's not clear what we're trying to deliver, yet. Is it something for ARIA? Something for APG? Something entirely separate?
19:37:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Here at APG, it might end up looking like a practice page similar to what we're working on for "high contrast."
19:37:47 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Right now, I think it's about getting enough people together with the interest and finding enough time to figure out some kind of deliverable.
19:38:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't know if there's consensus around whether ARIA itself needs new features to address this
19:38:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For the purpose of this specific issue, it seems like we don't have answers for the content. The APG just doesn't address these questions right now, and I think that this is an area where we would like to be able to provide some guidance, but we don't have the guidance to provide right now.
19:39:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't think there's anything more we can say at the present moment
19:39:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It is useful to provide a link to the Oracle components, perhaps CurtBellew can provide that in the issue
19:39:45 <jongund> https://www.highcharts.com/docs/accessibility/accessibility-module
19:39:54 <CurtBellew> https://www.oracle.com/webfolder/technetwork/jet/jetCookbook.html?component=home&demo=rootVisualizations
19:40:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: And maybe also a link to Highcharts
19:40:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Between the two of those, that's potentially some help for the reporter
19:40:48 <jugglinmike> arigilmore: Carbon charts also does some work in this direction. I'll share a link there, as well
19:40:54 <arigilmore> https://charts.carbondesignsystem.com/introduction
19:40:54 <jugglinmike> s/there /to that /
19:41:38 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: Please keep me in the loop, jongund!
19:42:00 <jugglinmike> jongund: Sure. My role will just be bringing experts together
19:42:34 <jugglinmike> jongund: We'll want to collect what people have done at this point and understand the commonalities and differences. That might inform a future extension to the APG
19:44:36 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
19:44:36 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jongund, howard-e, jugglinmike, lola, Adam_Page, CurtBellew, arigilmore
19:44:38 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
19:44:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/03-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim
19:44:46 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
19:44:47 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg
19:45:32 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
19:45:32 <RRSAgent> I see no action items