08:58:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot
08:58:20 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-irc
08:58:24 <mahda> mahda has joined #wot
08:58:50 <kaz> meeting: WoT F2F Meeting in Munich - Day 1
08:59:15 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Wiki_for_WoT_Week_2024_planning#Agenda_%28Draft%29
08:59:22 <kaz> scribenick: kaz
08:59:45 <ktoumura> ktoumura has joined #wot
08:59:53 <kaz> chair: Sebastian
09:00:38 <kaz> zakim, who is here?
09:00:38 <Zakim> Present: (no one)
09:00:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see ktoumura, mahda, RRSAgent, Zakim, sebastian, cris, JKRhb, kaz, EgeKorkan, dape, benfrancis, dlehn, jthomas, hadleybeeman, jets, denkeni
09:00:43 <RomanB> RomanB has joined #wot
09:01:33 <JKRhb> present+ Jan_Romann
09:01:40 <JKRhb> zakim, who is here?
09:01:40 <Zakim> Present: Jan_Romann
09:01:42 <Zakim> On IRC I see RomanB, ktoumura, mahda, RRSAgent, Zakim, sebastian, cris, JKRhb, kaz, EgeKorkan, dape, benfrancis, dlehn, jthomas, hadleybeeman, jets, denkeni
09:01:53 <ktoumura> present+ Kunihiko_Toumura
09:01:55 <JKRhb> rrsagent, please draft the minutes
09:01:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html JKRhb
09:02:06 <JKRhb> rrsagent, make public public
09:02:06 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make public public', JKRhb.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
09:02:14 <JKRhb> rrsagent, make log public
09:04:50 <Mizushima> Mizushima has joined #wot
09:06:32 <kaz> present+ Salvatore_Cataldi, Josh_Thomas, David_Ezell, Mahda_Noura, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Roman_Binkert, Tomoaki_Mizushima, Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Cristiano_Aguzi, Jan_Romann, Erich_Barnstedt, Kunihiko_Toumura, Matthias_Kovatsch
09:06:38 <kaz> topic: Opening
09:07:03 <kaz> eb: (gives remarks)
09:07:20 <dezell> dezell has joined #wot
09:07:37 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
09:07:41 <dezell> present+ David_Ezell
09:07:43 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
09:07:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
09:07:52 <kaz> sk: (starts the meeting)
09:08:04 <kaz> ... would like to ask you all about your impressions
09:08:05 <McCool> McCool has joined #wot
09:08:12 <kaz> ... took many photos myself
09:08:42 <kaz> mm: saw the photos from the WoT Conference yesterday
09:09:20 <kaz> ... we might want to think about WoT catalog as a possible deliverable
09:09:46 <kaz> sk: (shows photos from the meeting room and also the Christmas Market
09:10:00 <kaz> s/arket/arket)/
09:11:00 <kaz> ... great work with much fun!
09:11:26 <kaz> ... (also shows photos from the Gala Dinner last night)
09:11:46 <kaz> ... had Johannes Hund, etc., there
09:12:13 <kaz> eb: will the video publicly published later?
09:12:35 <kaz> sk: need to check with the Siemens Communications Team
09:12:59 <kaz> present+ Daniel_Peintner, Michael_McCool
09:14:45 <JKRhb> rrsagent, please draft the minutes
09:14:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html JKRhb
09:15:28 <kaz> sk: (shows the Thing Model Catalog repo)
09:16:07 <kaz> i/show/topic: Thing Model Catalog
09:16:48 <kaz> ... we might want to invite them to one of our calls
09:17:47 <sebastian> https://github.com/wot-oss/thingmodels
09:18:13 <kaz> s|https://github.com/wot-oss/thingmodels|-> https://github.com/wot-oss/thingmodels Thing Model Catalog Repository|
09:18:17 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
09:18:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
09:18:29 <kaz> topic: Agenda for today
09:18:48 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Wiki_for_WoT_Week_2024_planning#Agenda_%28Draft%29 Agenda
09:18:54 <kaz> sk: (updates the agenda)
09:19:31 <kaz> ... (then goes through the items)
09:20:50 <kaz> s/items/items, and add concrete time for each item/
09:22:17 <Mizushima> Mizushima has joined #wot
09:22:27 <kaz> ... would move "Coordination with External Groups" topics to tomorrow
09:22:54 <kaz> ... Cloud-Edge-Client Coordination CG, Smart Citeis IG and WoT CG to be moved to tomorrow
09:24:37 <kaz> ... what about "Use Cases and Requirements"
09:24:47 <kaz> mm: either is fine, today or tomorrow
09:25:11 <kaz> sk: 30 mins for today then
09:26:48 <kaz> ... some chat about today's dinner :)
09:27:03 <kaz> ... liaison discussion including OPC tomorrow
09:27:23 <kaz> ... what about "Marketing"?
09:27:45 <kaz> ek: yeah
09:28:15 <kaz> eb: probably we should have the Coffee Break a bit earlier, e.g., around 3:00pm
09:28:55 <kaz> sk: (move the Coffee Break before "Use Cases and Requirements")
09:30:36 <kaz> ... who is interested in the dinner tonight
09:30:42 <kaz> s/night/night?/
09:31:42 <kaz> (7 people raises their hands)
09:31:54 <kaz> sk: who is leaving earlier tomorrow?
09:32:13 <kaz> ... maybe we can close the meeting by 2pm
09:32:43 <kaz> s/7/8/
09:32:55 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
09:32:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
09:34:08 <kaz> topic: Plugfest Summary
09:34:24 <kaz> sk: one slide for each
09:34:37 <kaz> ek: empty slides to record the results
09:36:59 <kaz> dp: report for the Plugfest and/or the demo?
09:37:04 <kaz> sk: both
09:38:15 <kaz> ... everybody to write down their report now (till 10:50 CET)
09:38:25 <kaz> rrsagent, draf minutes
09:38:25 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'draf minutes', kaz.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
09:38:47 <kaz> (then morning coffee break at 10:50-11:15)
09:38:52 <kaz> rrsagent, draf minutes
09:38:52 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'draf minutes', kaz.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
09:39:10 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
09:39:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
09:39:23 <kaz> s/draf m/g
09:40:17 <kaz> s/one slide for each/subtopic: Generating the report/
09:40:19 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
09:40:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
09:41:45 <kaz> kaz: maybe we can reuse the 1-pager from the pitch yesterday as the first page, and add "what was done" as the second page?
09:41:52 <kaz> sk: yes and know
09:42:10 <kaz> ... would like to see "what was verified from the WoT technical viewpoint"
09:42:17 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
09:42:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
09:43:03 <kaz> mm: where to put the slides?
09:43:21 <kaz> kaz: under the wot repo or the wot-testing repo?
09:44:55 <sebastian> please upload your Plugfest outcome slides here: https://github.com/w3c/wot/tree/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-11-wot-week/Plugfest
09:45:34 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
09:45:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
09:49:45 <sebastian> or send the files to Kaz per email
10:00:15 <Mizushima> Mizushima has joined #wot
10:30:46 <Mizushima> Mizushima has joined #wot
10:34:32 <kaz> subtopic: McCool
10:35:04 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-11-wot-week/Plugfest/WoT%20AI%20Services.pptx McCool's report
10:35:41 <kaz> mm: WoT AI services and gaps
10:35:58 <kaz> ... (goes through the report)
10:36:45 <cris> q+
10:36:50 <sebastian> q+
10:37:18 <kaz> ack c
10:37:32 <kaz> ca: didn't get the detail
10:37:36 <kaz> mm: using HTTP
10:37:52 <kaz> ... request some text and new line
10:38:03 <kaz> ... can keep the connection open and then refresh that
10:38:12 <kaz> ca: about JSON Schema
10:38:21 <kaz> ... deal with the JSON Schema itself?
10:38:32 <kaz> mm: manage to close it
10:38:47 <kaz> ... (shows TD Issue 1464)
10:39:11 <kaz> ek: content encoding
10:39:16 <kaz> ... for binary
10:39:53 <kaz> ... interesting dimension is two possible different content types
10:40:13 <kaz> ... no way to handle that within TD at the moment
10:40:48 <cris> ack c
10:40:48 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1464 TD Issue 1464 - How to describe multipart/form-data in TDs
10:41:02 <kaz> ek: was also thinking about uploading binary data
10:41:12 <kaz> mm: common with Web services
10:41:20 <kaz> ca: definitely need to handle this
10:41:37 <kaz> sk: JSON Schema has its own media type information
10:42:07 <sebastian> q?
10:42:11 <kaz> mm: discussion should take place on the issue 1464
10:42:16 <McCool> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1464
10:42:23 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1464#issuecomment-2505646372 McCool's recent comments on Issue 1464
10:42:55 <kaz> lb: it's not an issue for JSON
10:43:12 <kaz> mm: other related issue there
10:43:26 <kaz> ... there was a standard describes more general way
10:43:45 <kaz> lb: we have a situation with JSON Schema
10:44:10 <kaz> ... if we end up a situation, we need to describe binary that JSON doesn't represent
10:44:19 <McCool> q?
10:44:38 <kaz> ,.. we can look at other kind of schema mechanism
10:44:43 <kaz> q?
10:44:53 <McCool> ack s
10:44:53 <sebastian> ack s
10:45:03 <kaz> mm: will continue to talk with Ege
10:45:10 <kaz> ek: you should create a new issue
10:45:31 <kaz> subtopic: Josh Thomas
10:45:40 <dezell> dezell has joined #wot
10:45:50 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
10:45:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
10:46:13 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-11-wot-week/Plugfest/Ignite-Retail.pptx Josh's report
10:46:22 <kaz> jt: (gives his report)
10:46:33 <kaz> ... TD playground allows validation of TD
10:46:48 <kaz> ... but maybe should validate the data too
10:47:59 <kaz> ... our demo kept expanding
10:48:23 <kaz> ... kudos to everyone involved
10:48:32 <kaz> ... super venue and organization
10:48:45 <kaz> sk: what do you mean by data to be validated?
10:48:51 <kaz> ... runtime data
10:48:55 <kaz> s/data/data?/
10:48:59 <kaz> jt: yes
10:49:12 <kaz> sk: not the task for the Playground itself?
10:49:17 <kaz> ca: right
10:49:37 <kaz> ek: multiple things to be done there
10:50:14 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1044 TD issue 1044 - somewhat relevant issue for streaming but not exactly
10:50:54 <kaz> -> https://github.com/tum-esi/testbench tum-esi testbench might be used for that purpose
10:51:24 <kaz> sk: maybe it would have been good to have a dedicated empty room for the setting
10:52:07 <kaz> ... but there was logistical difficulty due to the WoT Conference setting
10:52:37 <kaz> subtopic: Daniel Peintner
10:53:05 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-11-wot-week/Plugfest/plugfest-summary-dpeintne.pptx Daniel's report
10:53:15 <McCool> q+
10:53:19 <kaz> dp: discovered some technical issues and problems
10:53:29 <kaz> ... type vs @type
10:53:56 <kaz> mn: good to have another joint meeting with the JSON-LD WG again
10:54:14 <kaz> ek: spec problem from my viewpoint
10:54:57 <kaz> sk: we can talk with Greg and Benjamin again
10:55:08 <kaz> ... can talk with Manu also
10:55:16 <kaz> ek: not a new issue, though
10:56:07 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/2041 TD issue 2041 - Property affoardances compact non-json-schema semantic types (@type) to json-schema type using the TD 1.1 @context
10:56:21 <kaz> sk: we should follow up this
10:56:32 <kaz> mk: same as the @type annotation
10:56:42 <kaz> ... must have a sub class
10:56:56 <kaz> ... if you use a different predicate class
10:57:17 <kaz> ... nicely referenciable
10:57:29 <kaz> ... we need to create a different sub IRI
10:57:42 <kaz> ... external context file
10:58:00 <kaz> ... this could be easily fixed from the process viewpoint
10:58:23 <kaz> ... there are two parts about this issue
10:58:31 <kaz> ... point of instance
10:58:44 <kaz> ... and RDF triple handling
11:00:13 <kaz> dp: need to find the documentation
11:00:28 <kaz> sk: like we do for Modbus
11:00:46 <kaz> ... need to know the mapping
11:00:57 <kaz> eb: types have load IDs
11:01:07 <kaz> s/load/node/
11:01:22 <kaz> ... connecting to a real node on the server
11:02:53 <kaz> ... need to have an actual namespace to be used also
11:03:35 <kaz> dp: should be fixed by us
11:03:59 <Mizushima> Mizushima has joined #wot
11:03:59 <kaz> sk: should have an issue about node-wot
11:04:20 <kaz> ... OPC UA has its own pattern
11:04:45 <kaz> ... should handle the namespace too
11:06:01 <kaz> eb: let me show something...
11:06:16 <kaz> ... (shoes "OpenAI auto-generated WoT TD file" slide)
11:06:25 <kaz> ... maybe there is an error here
11:07:00 <kaz> (around "opcua:type")
11:07:10 <kaz> eb: this is a map for
11:08:33 <kaz> mk: what is the definition of "opcua:type" here/
11:08:40 <kaz> s|here/|here?|
11:08:49 <kaz> ... must be agreed on somewhere
11:09:04 <kaz> eb: that is a global definition
11:09:45 <kaz> mk: using inbound information would be problematic
11:09:57 <kaz> eb: this is an OPC UA companion spec
11:10:32 <kaz> ... uploaded to some cloud server
11:10:55 <kaz> ... it's loaded dynaimcally
11:11:44 <kaz> ... in this case, the type is being referred to base on "http://opcfoundation.orgUA/PNEM/"
11:13:02 <kaz> mk: all the mapping detail to be exposed to the TD
11:13:28 <kaz> dp: mixing opcua and modbus is also weird
11:13:55 <kaz> eb: this syntax for "opcua:type" can be decided
11:14:14 <kaz> ... based on the OPC UA companion spec
11:15:21 <kaz> mk: what would be the bridging ecosystem?
11:15:48 <kaz> eb: how about adding "@type" here?
11:16:04 <kaz> ... and array for multiple "@type"s
11:17:56 <kaz> eb: (shows the OPC Cloud Library)
11:19:18 <kaz> ... (and its Swagger interface)
11:19:54 <kaz> mk: need to have a semantic representation
11:20:04 <kaz> ... has to be a peer again
11:20:16 <kaz> eb: we could specify the instance in the form
11:20:37 <kaz> ... the flow now is OK
11:21:39 <kaz> ... when we had the discussion, the server react differently
11:22:29 <kaz> mk: some resolution to be done
11:23:04 <kaz> ... if it's not easy to handle dynamic binding, you can automate it
11:23:18 <kaz> sk: realistic to generate TD automatically?
11:23:26 <kaz> eb: for binding?
11:23:29 <kaz> ... you could do that
11:23:44 <kaz> sk: but very expensive process...
11:24:01 <kaz> mk: you need to convince the customer
11:24:08 <kaz> ... and get them onboard
11:24:17 <kaz> eb: would be difficult...
11:24:35 <kaz> ... used to work with an automotive company
11:25:02 <kaz> ... it's dangerous to do this
11:25:26 <kaz> present+ Tetsushi_Matsuda
11:25:39 <kaz> sk: time check
11:25:49 <kaz> ... tx for your feedback, Daniel!
11:25:57 <kaz> subtopic: Matthias Kovatsch
11:26:32 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-11-wot-week/Plugfest/plugfest-summary-mkovatsc.pptx Matthias' report
11:26:42 <kaz> mk: support for a sleeping device
11:27:01 <kaz> ... a battery powered device working for 5 years
11:27:40 <kaz> ... hard to expect those devices are "ON" always
11:27:58 <kaz> ... opportunity to get connected every 10 mins, for example
11:28:41 <kaz> sc: KNX devices?
11:28:50 <cris> q+
11:28:54 <kaz> mk: TD to describe the devices
11:29:25 <kaz> sc: let's think about a sensor on the KNX side and a switch on the WoT side
11:29:36 <kaz> ... who would be sending the command?
11:29:50 <kaz> mk: central logic could be handled somewhere
11:30:13 <kaz> sc: someone to translate the data?
11:30:35 <kaz> mk: you need more things to consider
11:30:38 <dezell> dezell has joined #wot
11:30:46 <kaz> ... all the media types to be know
11:30:52 <kaz> s/know/known/
11:31:36 <kaz> sc: can imagine some KNX device which is not designed for ETS
11:31:59 <kaz> mk: then Secure Schemes for OSCORE and SPAKE2+
11:32:07 <kaz> ... security bootstrapping
11:32:12 <kaz> ... how to set it up?
11:32:37 <kaz> ... key configuration to be described
11:32:55 <kaz> ... combinations with different security bootstrapping mechanisms
11:33:00 <kaz> ... then Discovery
11:33:14 <kaz> ... binding to existing ecosystem discovery mechanisms
11:33:27 <kaz> ... a the moment, mDNS is popular
11:33:38 <kaz> ... service to be recorded
11:33:47 <kaz> ... then additiona findings
11:34:14 <kaz> ... network configuration for TBR SLAAC, prefix delegation and DHCPv6
11:34:48 <kaz> ... dual stack DNS: mDNS/IPv4 prevents mDNS/IPv6 resolution
11:34:53 <kaz> .... then
11:35:18 <kaz> ... TD semantic annotations: KNX information model to BRICK and ??? (gaps)
11:35:48 <kaz> ... BRICK is growing
11:36:07 <kaz> q?
11:37:28 <kaz> sk: question about sleepy devices
11:37:47 <kaz> ... would expect the driver manages some cache
11:38:09 <kaz> mk: it's an impact for applications
11:38:26 <kaz> ... common recommendation to be clarifed
11:38:43 <kaz> ... linear back up would not make sense
11:39:04 <sebastian> q?
11:39:05 <JKRhb> q?
11:39:13 <dezell> q+
11:39:18 <sebastian> ack M
11:39:21 <kaz> mm: would like to security briefly
11:39:27 <kaz> ... modular security scheme
11:39:41 <kaz> ... need to write a schema
11:39:58 <kaz> ... can see whether we can bind that or not
11:40:13 <kaz> ... if we want t a new subscription mechanism
11:40:16 <kaz> mk: yeah
11:40:25 <kaz> ... independent security setting would be nice
11:40:57 <kaz> ... but hard to combine static model and dynamic model
11:41:12 <kaz> ... need some consideration
11:41:31 <kaz> mm: have to reopen the WoT Discovery discussion
11:41:42 <kaz> ... but there is a binding issue also
11:41:57 <kaz> ca: also sort of work within academia
11:42:09 <kaz> ... protocol with ROLA
11:42:22 <kaz> ... you can get connection with one devce
11:42:30 <kaz> q+
11:42:35 <JKRhb> s/ROLA/LORA
11:42:48 <kaz> kaz: so you suggest we look into LORA, etc.?
11:42:55 <kaz> ca: right
11:43:02 <kaz> q?
11:43:06 <kaz> ack k
11:43:27 <kaz> de: would like to see our suggestion
11:43:38 <kaz> ... sounds like pretty straight-forward
11:43:48 <kaz> subtopic: Kunihiko Toumura
11:44:34 <McCool> q+
11:44:44 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-11-wot-week/Plugfest/2024-11-28-Plugfest-Outcome-ktoumura.pdf Toumura's report
11:44:54 <kaz> kt: lessons learned
11:45:13 <kaz> ... TD and its directory are good for consolidate onboarding knowledge
11:45:37 <kaz> ... using Web browser as a Consumer, we need some workaround toaccess the properties
11:45:58 <kaz> ... there are various difficulties in connecting the remote VPN vs local network
11:46:17 <kaz> mm: regarding the human readable annotation
11:46:48 <kaz> ... useful to encourage people to have TD for humans and also AIs
11:46:54 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:46:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
11:47:06 <kaz> sk: would involve the Web browser vendors more
11:47:09 <kaz> q?
11:47:12 <kaz> ack c
11:47:15 <kaz> ack d
11:47:17 <kaz> ack mc
11:47:42 <McCool> q+
11:47:42 <kaz> ... some hope we can get reviews
11:47:44 <kaz> q?
11:48:24 <kaz> mk: don't think only about the machine side
11:48:35 <kaz> mm: let's involve the browesers
11:48:47 <kaz> ... various context about HTTPS
11:49:06 <kaz> mk: played around local host name
11:49:14 <kaz> s/local host/localhost/
11:49:42 <kaz> ... discussion by the IETF ANIMA WG
11:50:19 <kaz> ca: node-wot could handle the localhost name
11:50:30 <kaz> mk: if you have something hosting the localhost name
11:50:46 <kaz> ca: would work on the possible implementation
11:50:55 <kaz> ... we can do it by default
11:50:57 <kaz> q?
11:51:06 <McCool> ack m
11:51:16 <kaz> lb: .local is not fully supported
11:51:37 <kaz> ... you have another issue to handle the browsers
11:51:55 <McCool> q+
11:52:09 <kaz> mk: people can write an application to bypath the problem
11:52:18 <kaz> mm: another approach is using the IP address
11:52:43 <kaz> mk: that's not a big hurdle
11:52:49 <kaz> q?
11:53:01 <kaz> mm: we have some possible solutions
11:53:16 <kaz> ... and can give recommendations
11:53:32 <kaz> ... but I think mDNS is working
11:53:48 <kaz> ... then using a static IP address would be another option
11:54:30 <kaz> ... in various situations, mDNS doesn't work
11:55:02 <kaz> sk: would suggest we handle one more report before lunch?
11:55:10 <McCool> ack m
11:55:14 <kaz> ... or need to be on time?
11:55:21 <kaz> eb: yeah
11:55:35 <kaz> sk: then let's go for lunch
11:55:48 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:55:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
11:55:56 <kaz> ... (shows the agenda again)
11:56:25 <kaz> [[
11:56:26 <kaz> 14:00-15:00 Plugfest Summary (II/II)
11:56:26 <kaz> 15:00-15:30 Discussion around DTDL and WoT usage at Microsoft
11:56:26 <kaz> 15:30-15:45 Coffee break
11:56:26 <kaz> 15:45-16:15 Topics around Scripting
11:56:27 <kaz> 16:15-17:00 Thing Description and Protocol Bindings
11:56:27 <kaz> 17:00 End of day
11:56:27 <kaz> ]]
11:56:34 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:56:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
11:57:31 <EgeKorkan> EgeKorkan has joined #wot
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13:01:04 <kaz> [ lunch ]
13:01:08 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:01:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:01:32 <McCool> q?
13:02:31 <Mizushima> Mizushima has joined #wot
13:02:53 <JKRhb> JKRhb has joined #wot
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13:03:06 <JKRhb> scribenick: JKRhb
13:03:12 <cris> cris has joined #wot
13:03:34 <JKRhb> mn: For me, the setup I had for the plugfest was testing the Siemens Web of Things servient
13:03:44 <JKRhb> ... was interesting to investigate potential issues
13:03:51 <JKRhb> ... with MQTT, it was working well
13:04:07 <kaz> i|For me|subtopic: Mahda Noura
13:04:21 <kaz> i|For me|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-11-wot-week/Plugfest/2024-11-28-%20Plugest-MahdaNoura.pptx Mahda's report|
13:04:23 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:04:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:04:30 <JKRhb> ... but with OPC UA, it did not work as well, it worked with node-wot, with sayWot!, I was able to see the properties, but I was not able to read it
13:04:35 <JKRhb> dp: We did not really have time to investigate the issue
13:04:57 <JKRhb> ... might be because we had one property that could only be read and one that could only be written to
13:05:18 <JKRhb> mn: The property that was readable was working, but I did not have time to look into it
13:05:26 <JKRhb> ... also tested it with BACnet
13:05:50 <JKRhb> ... since sayWoT! is not supporting BACnet, we tested it with @@@
13:06:07 <JKRhb> ... noticed that sayWoT! is somewhat unstable
13:06:30 <JKRhb> ... syntax issues, need to communicate that to the development team
13:06:46 <JKRhb> ... also there are some expectations regarding object encoding which did not work
13:07:01 <JKRhb> ... I was wondering whether this needs to be defined in the TD
13:07:15 <JKRhb> ... does the structure need to be defined in the TD?
13:07:31 <JKRhb> ca: Generally yes, but if it is just an object, then it should work
13:08:03 <JKRhb> mn: The server was always complaining about an invalid object
13:08:39 <JKRhb> ... sayWot! expects an encoding of an object within another object as string, with strings and numbers it worked
13:09:07 <JKRhb> ... with regard to interoperability issues, we encounted the JSON-LD issues that we discussed before
13:09:14 <JKRhb> ... also the CoAP sleep time issue
13:09:26 <JKRhb> sk: Was the interaction with KNX sometimes successful?
13:09:45 <JKRhb> mn: It did not work at all, as sayWoT! expected the devices to be always on
13:09:55 <McCool> q+
13:10:08 <JKRhb> ...  did not fully work even when Matthias enabled the always-on mode
13:10:24 <JKRhb> ... I am also working on an LLM-based knowledge graph implementation
13:11:25 <JKRhb> ... noticed that the LLM is not providing really helpful descriptions of ontologies, with HTML and other tags included in the output, should discuss whether we can improve here
13:11:39 <JKRhb> mm: Should be easy to strip out the tags
13:12:00 <JKRhb> ... same applies to ReSpec tags
13:12:13 <JKRhb> ... could also convert them
13:12:22 <sebastian> ack M
13:12:33 <JKRhb> mn: Tags were not that much of a problem, the descriptions are not as accurate
13:12:43 <kaz> q+ Ege
13:12:49 <kaz> ack e
13:12:50 <JKRhb> mm: Can make the ontologies more LLM friendly
13:13:12 <JKRhb> ek: Problem might go away when the tooling improves
13:13:23 <JKRhb> mm: Might also improve the human-readability
13:13:31 <dezell> dezell has joined #wot
13:13:42 <JKRhb> ... for AI, we probably should also improve the human-readable web version
13:13:44 <dezell> q+
13:13:51 <JKRhb> mm: I had this problem for a while
13:14:07 <JKRhb> ... we have the descriptions in the TD, unclear whether this is for the end user or for the developer
13:14:35 <JKRhb> .... need to clarify this and also provide the purpose, might provide different kinds of descriptions
13:14:42 <JKRhb> ek: Comments vs descriptions
13:15:04 <kaz> q+ David
13:15:04 <sebastian> ack d
13:15:12 <JKRhb> mm: AI is somewhere in between users and developers, need to make sure that the descriptions serve both
13:15:13 <kaz> ack d
13:15:50 <JKRhb> ez: We worked on hundreds on TDs with AI, noticed that the documentation is really bad generally
13:16:11 <JKRhb> ... highlights how important the documentation is, otherwise the AI only comes up with total gibberish
13:17:01 <JKRhb> ... one thing I did was when there were a lot values that I wanted to show up in the result, was prompt engineering and indicating that the "payment" for the AI depends on the result
13:17:21 <JKRhb> mm: Maybe we need a separate meeting to talk about the AI topic
13:17:36 <JKRhb> sk: There was also a breakout session during TPAC, right?
13:17:47 <JKRhb> mm: There were several, but not on this particular topic
13:18:17 <JKRhb> ... potentially, JSON-LD could be used for this as well, as it represents a knowledge graph, as Mahda mentioned
13:18:35 <JKRhb> ... other aspects concern ontologies, problem is that AI is unreliable
13:19:26 <McCool> (AI is unreliable, but if we use it to generate content e.g. JSON-LD that can be validated, we can mitigate this)
13:19:42 <JKRhb> eb: Some it was already covered before, but my experience on the plugfest was that the expertise was very high
13:20:00 <JKRhb> ... what surprised me a bit was the variety of applications that were being shown
13:20:13 <JKRhb> .... shows how flexible the technology really is
13:20:32 <JKRhb> ... I really think that we see wide adoption and a critical mass
13:20:48 <JKRhb> ... I increasingly hear from customers that they already know Web of Thigns
13:21:14 <JKRhb> ... regarding the things to improve, we can definitely figure out the network issues before the event
13:21:42 <JKRhb> ... also got the feedback from a user who was wondering why it takes so long, but standardization just takes long
13:21:49 <JKRhb> ... and adoption takes even longer
13:22:20 <JKRhb> ... and takes longer than the average term of an executive
13:22:38 <JKRhb> .... you can always invent something yourself, but then you don't have interoperability
13:23:23 <JKRhb> ... (mentions example that highlights the importance of teams vs individuals)
13:24:00 <JKRhb> ... this community is awesome, Salvatore already solved a BACnet problem I was encountering earlier
13:24:27 <JKRhb> sk: I have to say that the network worked last week, but apparently all the things brought it down
13:25:12 <JKRhb> mm: We can definitely learn from this, maybe we need to do the setup on the saturday before
13:25:30 <JKRhb> sk: Apparently, there is also a bandwith problem, the network in Siemens is not designed for this
13:25:45 <JKRhb> ... we will have a call with the network team and hope that they will improve it
13:26:01 <JKRhb> ... as this will probably not be the last time we will have such an event
13:26:04 <kaz> q+
13:26:24 <kaz> ack k
13:26:26 <JKRhb> kaz: In any case, we probably should become better prepared even earlier
13:27:00 <JKRhb> eb: I would like to have such an event every year, would even be willing to host it, to give the community a boost
13:27:10 <kaz> q+
13:27:23 <JKRhb> sk: Before the pandemic, we actually did this type of event every six months
13:27:57 <JKRhb> mm: Should prepare a VPN bridge, and test it in a couple of months
13:28:13 <JKRhb> kaz: Note that there is going to be TPAC in Kobe(?), Japan, in November
13:28:37 <sebastian> <Jan Romann is showing its result>
13:29:11 <sebastian> JR: worked together with Luca Barbato
13:29:15 <McCool> (think having the F2F in Nov this year was an outlier, we should aim for the early summer next year, e.g. May/June - I said July, but many can't do that for vacation reasons)
13:29:56 <sebastian> ... worked on Rust no_std applications for microcontrollers (ESP32)
13:30:00 <kaz> i/Jan Ro/subtopic: Jan Romann/
13:30:25 <sebastian> ... interact with node-wot, TDD, and KNX
13:30:33 <sebastian> ... there was some issues:
13:30:43 <kaz> i/Jan Ro/subtopic: Jan Romann/
13:30:55 <sebastian> ... identified some bugs in dart_wot and domos TDD
13:31:08 <kaz> i|Jan Ro|-> @@@j Jan's slides|
13:32:15 <sebastian> <Jan shows an issue in the TD repo #1780>
13:32:56 <McCool> q+
13:33:26 <sebastian> ... there was also issues with the OPC UA TDs, causing discovery to fail
13:35:43 <sebastian> EB: it is not easy to parse TDs if there multiple options of, e.g., being a string or array of a string
13:35:56 <sebastian> DP: this is what JSON-LD allows
13:36:13 <sebastian> EB: we should think about to limit this
13:36:31 <McCool> ack m
13:36:56 <sebastian> MM: TDs should be validated before used
13:37:39 <kaz> q-
13:37:48 <sebastian> ack m
13:37:51 <kaz> q+
13:38:08 <sebastian> LB: TD is not a flat JSON
13:38:32 <sebastian> ... JSON-LD force to do additional processing
13:38:59 <sebastian> ... if you build your own JSON parser, you can deal with it
13:39:49 <sebastian> ... with the most Things you can use simple JSON parser
13:40:25 <McCool> q+
13:41:22 <sebastian> Kaz: please upload the slide
13:41:32 <sebastian> JR: created a PR
13:42:38 <sebastian> MM: there multiple issues which we need to consider: array, name values, default values, inline definitions
13:42:47 <sebastian> s/there/there are
13:43:43 <sebastian> SK: please create an issue within the TD repo to talk about this issue and to make decissions
13:43:54 <McCool> q+
13:44:15 <McCool> ack k
13:45:32 <sebastian> JR: we should not throw away a whole TD if there, e.g., one action is not working
13:45:46 <McCool> (validation may also need to fetch TMs - is a TD considered valid in TDD if it is not consistent with a TM it links to?)
13:45:56 <kaz> s|@@@j|https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-11-wot-week/Plugfest/2024-11-28-wot-plugfest-summary-jan-romann.pdf|
13:46:55 <sebastian> JR: interaction with the KNX IoT devices via CoAP was unreliable
13:47:54 <sebastian> ... binding template should support indicating non-confirmable request and "sleep schedule" pattern
13:49:49 <sebastian> ... no_std with Rust was challlenging
13:49:51 <kaz> q+
13:50:26 <sebastian> ... there was no much progress
13:51:27 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:51:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:52:00 <kaz> i|Jan Romann is showing|scribenick: sebastian|
13:52:02 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:52:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:52:20 <sebastian> LB: if would have more time such as one week more, we would reach better result
13:52:25 <kaz> s/subtopic: Jan Romann//
13:52:27 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:52:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:53:07 <sebastian> q?
13:53:13 <sebastian> ack M
13:53:18 <sebastian> ack K
13:53:26 <JKRhb> scribenick: JKRhb
13:53:44 <JKRhb> kaz: The sleeping device discussion made me think about keep-alive
13:53:54 <JKRhb> ... we need more use case discussion on this in general
13:53:59 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:54:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:55:49 <JKRhb> ez: We came to figure out whether our system would work at all
13:56:05 <kaz> i|We came|subtopic: David Ezell|
13:56:10 <JKRhb> ... to give an example, in Europe all gas pumps are using a standard called @@@
13:56:17 <kaz> i|We came|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-11-wot-week/Plugfest/plugfest-summary-dezell-2024-11-28.pptx David's report|
13:56:20 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:56:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:56:33 <JKRhb> ... we first tested out RESTful services
13:56:49 <JKRhb> ... for a long time I thought that WoT can replace @@@
13:57:09 <JKRhb> ... it's very exciting for us, as we only have greenfield devices
13:57:20 <JKRhb> ... in the beginning, we had a very simple TD
13:57:44 <JKRhb> ... but we ended up in an echo chamber of our own precautions about which protocol to use
13:58:22 <JKRhb> ... we wanted to automatically generate tests and documentation
13:58:37 <JKRhb> ... I think we can something like that here
13:58:58 <JKRhb> ... all of our systems are edge systems, but we are moving toward the cloud
13:59:13 <JKRhb> ... we might move to WebSockts at some point
13:59:23 <JKRhb> ... we are probably not going to use MQTT
13:59:51 <JKRhb> ... we are having some restrictions that are applying to credit card payments
14:00:08 <JKRhb> ... the question is how all of these message choreographies are going to work
14:00:19 <JKRhb> ... we are using SSEs at the moment, complicated but it works
14:00:45 <JKRhb> ... we need to make a lot of decisions about security and transport schemas
14:00:53 <McCool> s/restrictions/restrictions, in particular PoS systems can call out but cannot accept connections,/
14:01:15 <JKRhb> ... we agree that OAuth 2.0 is the gold standard, but the question is who runs the service
14:01:48 <JKRhb> ... we are using the $ref approach, using a macro, the question is where a definition came from, however
14:01:49 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:01:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
14:02:04 <JKRhb> ... we are using AJV for validation, which works really well for us
14:02:14 <McCool> s/macro/macro and a preprocessor/
14:03:06 <JKRhb> eb: There is one part of me that says that you should talk to Siemens, also you should rather consider charging stations instead of gas pumps
14:03:33 <JKRhb> ez: There is a charging system that looks like a gas pump
14:03:51 <JKRhb> eb: @@@
14:04:15 <JKRhb> sk: This protocol is quite similar to OPC
14:04:41 <JKRhb> eb: There are regulations that are built into the OCPP standard, this screams for WoT
14:05:05 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:05:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
14:05:54 <JKRhb> ez: @@@
14:06:04 <JKRhb> eb: I am surprised that you chose REST in the first place
14:06:15 <JKRhb> ... you do have a REST server in every gas pump now, right?
14:06:22 <JKRhb> ez: Not in every pump
14:06:53 <JKRhb> ... Europe is moving faster in this regard
14:07:18 <McCool> q+
14:08:31 <JKRhb> eb: There is now the regulation that all EV chargers need to support electronic payments, since people don't want to download a specific payment app
14:09:01 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:09:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
14:09:15 <EgeKorkan>  scribenick: EgeKorkan
14:09:31 <EgeKorkan> mm: What is your feedback on ip cameras?
14:09:57 <EgeKorkan> jt: Due to the network but it did not work but it worked in my computer
14:10:17 <EgeKorkan> mm: we should get that information needed to set up video streaming
14:10:38 <EgeKorkan> ... it should be very relevant in retail, like detecting people
14:10:59 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:11:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
14:11:26 <EgeKorkan> de: You are 100% right. We had a demo some time ago but you could only see it in their dashboard.
14:12:13 <EgeKorkan> mm: Frigate can be used for this kind of purposes. Will get us 90% of the way
14:12:19 <EgeKorkan> ... we will follow up on that
14:12:22 <EgeKorkan> q?
14:12:22 <sebastian> q?
14:12:26 <EgeKorkan> ack m
14:12:56 <EgeKorkan> subtopic: Cristiano's Negative Comments
14:13:14 <kaz> s/Comments/Comments :)/
14:13:20 <McCool> q+
14:13:29 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-11-wot-week/Plugfest/Plugfest%20summary-Cristiano.pptx Cristiano's report
14:13:35 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:13:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
14:14:02 <EgeKorkan> ca: for us it was important to send data to the cloud. The network was a slowdown factor
14:14:52 <EgeKorkan> ca: there wasn't enough time to show demos. People had to go back to the conference
14:15:53 <EgeKorkan> ek: people had to grab coffee etc. and did not go to the demos quickly
14:16:39 <EgeKorkan> ca: it would have been nice to know that there would be monitors
14:17:08 <EgeKorkan> ... We brought monitors ourseles.
14:17:12 <jthomas> q+
14:17:14 <dezell> q+ to talk about initial questions
14:17:30 <EgeKorkan> ... a longer introduction round would have been nicer, explaining the available TDs
14:17:45 <EgeKorkan> ... showcasing room vs hacking room would have been nicer
14:18:38 <EgeKorkan> ... we found that we needed to disable validation of packets.
14:19:16 <EgeKorkan> ... modeling data is tricky. The data modeler should think of the consumer and make it easy for the consumer application
14:20:12 <EgeKorkan> jt: we modeled string but then the data that came was number
14:20:33 <EgeKorkan> mm: The consumer should be flexible but the thing should be strict
14:22:05 <EgeKorkan> ca: transactions as an event would have been a better experience
14:22:20 <EgeKorkan> ca: sharing links of TDs was easier than TDD
14:23:02 <EgeKorkan> mm: a simple html that shows the list of TD links would improve the situation a lot
14:23:41 <EgeKorkan> ca: we noticed some errors in node-wot like longpolling giving events twice
14:24:09 <EgeKorkan> ca: Also Vignesh needed mqtt over ws
14:25:24 <McCool> (created issue for renderable landing page for domus TDD: https://github.com/eclipse-thingweb/domus-tdd-api/issues/17)
14:26:22 <kaz> s/mqtt/MQTT/
14:26:44 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:26:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
14:26:52 <EgeKorkan> dp: I think we can organize "tours" of demos
14:26:59 <EgeKorkan> ... that would also save the pitching time
14:27:01 <dape> q?
14:27:04 <McCool> (every ten minutes have a bell to move to the next demo?)
14:27:14 <EgeKorkan> subtopic: Roman Binkert
14:27:33 <jthomas> q-
14:27:57 <EgeKorkan> rb: it was really nice to have physical meetup
14:28:21 <EgeKorkan> rb: sadly lost time fixing issues
14:28:46 <EgeKorkan> ... longer Thing pitches would have been nice and also showing if a Thing is available or not
14:29:31 <EgeKorkan> ... like it is waiting for someone to interact with
14:31:00 <EgeKorkan> ... not many people visiting, only at the end yes but then they had to go to the talks
14:31:32 <EgeKorkan> ... it would be nice to have a standardization on linking the real and digital version of the Thing
14:31:51 <EgeKorkan> ... data streaming would be also nice
14:32:37 <sebastian> q?
14:32:39 <sebastian> ack m
14:32:54 <JKRhb> JKRhb has joined #wot
14:32:54 <EgeKorkan> mm: we should consider the link relation type. Both are services, one is real and the other is the digital counterpart
14:33:05 <EgeKorkan> mm: Also I want to follow up with some people
14:33:59 <EgeKorkan> de: starting at 10am would help
14:34:20 <JKRhb> scribenick: JKRhb
14:34:58 <JKRhb> subtopic: Ege Korkan
14:36:07 <JKRhb> ek: I did not really have a demo, but I observed some interesting suff
14:36:12 <JKRhb> s/suff/stuff/
14:36:23 <JKRhb> ... with the network, I agree that there were some issues
14:36:39 <JKRhb> ... with Siemens, we did not have the ability to really connect to the network
14:37:14 <JKRhb> ... before, we had a Plugfest at the University, which allowed us to use any port, without many restrictions
14:37:32 <JKRhb> ... not sure whether this is still possible with TUM, but it should be
14:37:45 <JKRhb> eb: At Microsoft, we have totally different network for our labs
14:37:54 <kaz> i|I did not re|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-11-wot-week/Plugfest/plugfest-summary-egekorkan.pptx Ege's report|
14:37:57 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:37:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
14:38:17 <JKRhb> ... as an alternative, you could also use a 5G router and set up a WoT network with that
14:38:19 <sebastian> q?
14:38:25 <McCool> (issue created for "Standardize mechanism to specify a Digital Shadow": https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/2060)
14:38:31 <sebastian> ack d
14:38:31 <Zakim> dezell, you wanted to talk about initial questions
14:38:50 <JKRhb> ek: We actually had a router with a telekom SIM card, but that also had connectivity issues within the building
14:38:56 <McCool> (maybe use a "real computer" rather than a Pi for the VPN bridge?)
14:39:25 <JKRhb> ... regarding the RPi for the VPN, it was probably not powerful enough
14:39:39 <JKRhb> ... should get a more "beefy" one maybe
14:39:49 <JKRhb> mm: Or maybe a "real computer"
14:40:03 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:40:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
14:40:15 <JKRhb> ek: Regarding, the plugfest preparations, what we discussed before the plugfest did not really materilize
14:40:26 <McCool> (maybe we should rotate seats every half day?)
14:40:29 <JKRhb> ... instead, it was much more organic, with spontaneous collaborations
14:40:38 <kaz> i|it was really nice to|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-11-wot-week/Plugfest/20241128%20Plugfest%20Recap%20Roman%20Binkert.pdf Roman's report|
14:40:40 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:40:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
14:41:17 <JKRhb> ... I was also talking about this with Salvatore with regard to BACnet plugfests, they do the plugfest with this goal, also with different networks that are planned in advance
14:41:24 <JKRhb> ... could be one source of inspiration
14:41:37 <JKRhb> ... but for this to work, people need the stuff of the others beforehand
14:42:35 <JKRhb> sc: In BACnet, people do not need to know the details of the products of others, as all products are being certified on the basis of profiles
14:42:59 <JKRhb> ... so that you know what you can expect, as everyone needs to specify the device profiles beforehand
14:43:29 <JKRhb> jt: It speaks about the power of the standard if you don't need to specify details beforehand
14:43:40 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:43:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
14:44:18 <JKRhb> ek: So maybe some more planning beforehand would be nice, and then based on that spontaneous collaboration can happen
14:44:43 <JKRhb> ek: I was not able to really work on initial connection and other topics
14:45:03 <JKRhb> ... would also be nice to have more time for showcasing
14:45:24 <JKRhb> ... people were mostly focused on creating a demo, though, so they did not really have the time to test out new features
14:45:45 <JKRhb> ek: It was really nice to see CALA Laster and Müller-BBM
14:46:04 <JKRhb> ... the person representing Müller-BBM proposed a new binding for NATS
14:46:17 <JKRhb> ... which is used by a lot of companies, including Siemens and Schäffler
14:46:35 <JKRhb> ... there is a lot of companies that are using is
14:46:43 <JKRhb> s/using is/using it/
14:46:52 <JKRhb> ... it is quite similar to MQTT
14:47:01 <JKRhb> sk: I also suggested to him to create a binding
14:47:19 <JKRhb> ... he will take inspiration from Modbus etc.
14:47:35 <JKRhb> ek: I also mentioned to him that he should suggest that to NATS
14:47:56 <JKRhb> ... it was not as obvious how easy the integration was in the end in general
14:48:17 <JKRhb> ... I think it was similar with Mahda, Ganesh, and the person from St. Gallen
14:48:54 <JKRhb> mn: It worked quite well, but they left a bit early, and then they gave their devices to Kai
14:49:12 <kaz> s/subtopic: McCool/subtopic: Michael McCool/
14:49:14 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:49:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
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15:18:42 <JKRhb> subtopic: Discussion around DTDL and WoT usage at Microsoft
15:19:36 <JKRhb> eb: (Explains how Microsoft came to using OPC UA together Web of Things)
15:19:48 <JKRhb> s/together/together with/
15:20:04 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:20:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
15:20:43 <JKRhb> ... OPC UA has an asset creation and deletion API where you can upload/remove a WoT file which can be used for onboarding and mapping WoT properties to OPC UA nodes
15:20:58 <JKRhb> ... that can then be used for OPC UA connectivity
15:21:15 <JKRhb> ... the companion specification has been published earlier this year
15:21:28 <JKRhb> ... I heard from Siemens that they implemented it but I have yet to see it
15:21:40 <JKRhb> sk: It was actually shown at the plugfest
15:22:17 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:22:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
15:22:41 <JKRhb> eb: What does that mean for our architecture? We have a southbound interface for edge apps and a northbound interface based on MQTT and we integrated that with the WoT connectivity interface
15:23:26 <JKRhb> ... it is now integrated with Kubernetes, the system has been renamed to Connector for OPC UA (?)
15:23:32 <JKRhb> ... there is a new release pending
15:23:42 <JKRhb> ... should be released sometime early next year
15:23:52 <JKRhb> ... then we have WoT connectivity in both our products
15:24:53 <JKRhb> ... Azure IoT (?) is more focused on consumers, while Azure Industrial IoT (?) is more focused on businesses
15:25:23 <JKRhb> ... to be scalable, you want some kind of gateway solution, which you could replace if you need to
15:25:30 <kaz> q+
15:25:40 <JKRhb> ... both solutions support OPC UA and will WoT some time soon
15:26:04 <JKRhb> ... in the next binding meeting, we can discuss the type vs @type issue
15:26:10 <JKRhb> s/type vs//
15:26:30 <JKRhb> s/@type issue/how to use the @type for the OPC UA binding/
15:26:37 <kaz> -> https://github.com/digitaltwinconsortium Digital Twin Consortium's GitHub repo/
15:26:50 <JKRhb> eb: Now to DTDL
15:27:15 <JKRhb> ... you can see Web of Things in this repository's README
15:27:40 <JKRhb> ... we have a conversion tool to convert DTDL to WoT TMs
15:27:55 <JKRhb> ... we were able to convert all of the 150+ models to TMs with this tool
15:28:17 <JKRhb> ... then we have a specific document that specifies the mapping between the two description formats
15:28:27 <kaz> -> https://github.com/digitaltwinconsortium/ManufacturingOntologies ManufacturingOntologies
15:28:35 <JKRhb> ... we worked on this for over a year, no changes to the WoT specification were needed
15:28:41 <McCool> q+
15:28:55 <JKRhb> sk: There are just some inputs for the TD specification, like the comment vocabulary term
15:29:14 <JKRhb> ek: This relates to what Michael McCool said earlier
15:29:28 <JKRhb> mm: I think we need something for a developer
15:29:52 <JKRhb> ... we should discuss this, we should add another field for that role and make the two roles destinct
15:30:05 <JKRhb> ... I am surprised that you did not find any gaps in DTDL
15:30:15 <kaz> -> https://github.com/digitaltwinconsortium/ManufacturingOntologies/blob/main/comparison.md DTDLv3 and W3C WoT Thing Model 1.1 Comparision
15:30:27 <JKRhb> eb: The thing that DTDL never had were protocol bindings
15:30:46 <JKRhb> ... so I said to the people at Microsoft that we should not reinvent this
15:31:14 <JKRhb> ... I was able to tell them that we are not abandoning DTDL, only that WoT is more capable
15:31:26 <JKRhb> ... there were two features that did not exist in WoT
15:31:41 <JKRhb> ... but Pedram found a way to describe them using JSON-LD anyway
15:32:03 <JKRhb> ... could be an option to add these terms later, but for now a WoT consumer would just ignore them
15:32:50 <JKRhb> eb: The most important ontology that we described with DTDL was ISO @@@, and that worked fine
15:33:06 <JKRhb> ... I cannot mandate the use of WoT at Microsoft, I can only recommend it
15:33:23 <JKRhb> ... but I will recommend to never use it again (laugh)
15:33:31 <JKRhb> s/laugh/laughs/
15:33:41 <JKRhb> mm: What I see is that DTDL has comment
15:33:59 <JKRhb> eb: People tended to use the same string for both
15:34:32 <JKRhb> ... in the repository, we have an upload tool to create processes etc.
15:34:43 <JKRhb> ... it has an Excel plugin, which people just love
15:35:26 <JKRhb> ... all of this is open source, it is free to use, is a very popular repository
15:35:35 <JKRhb> s/ISO @@@/ISO 59/
15:35:51 <JKRhb> ... it is a good conversation starter, helped us fill a gap in the market
15:36:13 <JKRhb> mm: Let me ask: Is there an interesting ontology to look at here?
15:36:29 <JKRhb> eb: You can go to the ontology page at Microsoft Learn
15:36:54 <JKRhb> ... there you have ontologies for smart cities or manufacturing and map them to WoT as well
15:36:59 <JKRhb> mm: Kaz, take note
15:37:07 <kaz> i|eb:|-> https://github.com/digitaltwinconsortium/ManufacturingOntologies/tree/main ManufacturingOntologies|
15:37:10 <JKRhb> kaz: There are actually a lot of smart citiy ontologies
15:37:14 <JKRhb> eb: That is true
15:37:46 <JKRhb> ... but you could convert all of these ontologies that are all standards-based, so using these would be a great win for you
15:39:43 <sebastian> q?
15:39:44 <McCool> q+
15:39:46 <kaz> q?
15:40:03 <JKRhb> mm: Regarding digital twins generally, we had this in our charter and wanted to explore this
15:40:23 <JKRhb> ... after our earlier discussion, I created an issue regarding digital shadows
15:40:34 <JKRhb> ... is there anything we could use here?
15:41:11 <JKRhb> ... for example. a tool that uses a TD to create a shadow
15:41:53 <JKRhb> eb: Having such a tool would be very nice, converting from JSON to JSON is relatively easy
15:42:28 <JKRhb> (A tool from AWS is mentioned)
15:42:31 <kaz> q?
15:42:48 <JKRhb> kaz: We should talk to AWS, Amazon is a W3C member
15:43:15 <JKRhb> eb: Regarding DTDL, there was some work on spatial data, that could be used
15:43:28 <JKRhb> mm: Would be happy if there was a tool that we could build upon
15:43:32 <EgeKorkan> q+
15:43:53 <JKRhb> ... I think there is geospatial and geoSPARQL
15:44:18 <JKRhb> eb: The one I was thinking about was GeoJSON, which is an IETF RFC
15:44:41 <kaz> i|Regarding di|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/2060 TD issue 2060 - Standardize mechanism to specify a "Digital Shadow"|
15:44:56 <JKRhb> ek: The company of Cristiano used it for their demo yesterday
15:44:56 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:44:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
15:45:04 <JKRhb> ca: Yeah, it is quite easy to use
15:45:41 <kaz> q?
15:45:54 <JKRhb> mm: We had discussions in the past, question what to standardize here, should talk about this as an incubator, this is not just next-charter thoughts
15:45:56 <EgeKorkan> ack e
15:46:02 <sebastian> ack M
15:46:15 <McCool> q+
15:46:29 <kaz> ack k
15:46:31 <kaz> ack m
15:46:33 <JKRhb> kaz: I just wanted to mention that WoT is a @@@ mechanism, so would should clarify the requirements of what we need to do here
15:47:08 <kaz> s/WoT is a @@@ mechanism/WoT itself is already a kind of a mechanism for digital twins/
15:47:16 <JKRhb> ek: At TUM, we dealt with something like this, also with regard to state, need to link to other documents
15:47:17 <kaz> s/would should/should/
15:47:29 <JKRhb> ... this could blow up the complexity
15:47:39 <kaz> s/requirements of/requirements for/
15:47:46 <JKRhb> mm: Part of the problem with digital twins is that there are many different definitions
15:48:04 <kaz> s/here/here, specifically for the collaboration with DTDL./
15:48:06 <JKRhb> ... I think we should not put everything in the TD but leverage the linking feature
15:48:08 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:48:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
15:48:34 <kaz> q+
15:48:41 <JKRhb> ... but even then, we should rely on existing resources, does not necessary need to be a standard, could also be a comunity group activity
15:48:55 <kaz> q-
15:49:07 <JKRhb> kaz: Just a very quick questions: Are the slides available?
15:49:13 <JKRhb> eb: I will send them to you
15:49:25 <JKRhb> mm: Just wanted to mention that it is great that you are contributing so much
15:49:36 <JKRhb> sk: I have to second that
15:50:19 <JKRhb> eb: You are making my work a lot easier, you can consider Microsoft an active part of the working group although I am not able to always participate
15:50:20 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:50:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
15:50:45 <JKRhb> topic: Agenda for Day 2
15:50:51 <JKRhb> sk: Let's have quick look
15:51:08 <JKRhb> ... we will start at 10 AM
15:51:26 <JKRhb> ... in the morning session I would come to the Scripting and TD topics
15:51:56 <kaz> q+
15:51:58 <JKRhb> ... then we are going to discuss Use Cases and Requirements, then we will have the coffee break, talk about marketing and then about liasons
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15:52:20 <JKRhb> ... we can spend some time on OPC, we have already slides
15:52:39 <JKRhb> ... after lunch, we will also have the coffee break
15:52:58 <JKRhb> kaz: Is it possible to move ECHONET before lunch?
15:53:06 <JKRhb> ek: We can swap with marketing
15:53:15 <JKRhb> sc: I have a similar problem
15:53:22 <kaz> q-
15:53:24 <JKRhb> sk: Then we can just swap the two liason sessions
15:54:04 <JKRhb> ... (edits the wiki)
15:54:47 <JKRhb> ... (shows the latest version)
15:56:22 <JKRhb> ... question is whether we will have meetings next week, also about the frequency of the plugfest
15:56:30 <JKRhb> ... does this plan look good to you?
15:56:36 <JKRhb> (The group agrees)
15:56:58 <JKRhb> sk: (explains what the plan for dinner is tonight)
15:58:27 <JKRhb> [adjourned]
15:59:03 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:59:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-wot-minutes.html kaz
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