14:38:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
14:38:10 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-i18n-irc
14:38:20 <addison> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
14:39:11 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/b7edae68-f52c-4aab-a1a6-3c37459e0786/20241128T150000/
14:39:11 <agendabot> clear agenda
14:39:11 <agendabot> agenda+ Agenda Review
14:39:11 <agendabot> agenda+ Action Items
14:39:13 <agendabot> agenda+ Info Share
14:39:15 <agendabot> agenda+ RADAR Review
14:39:17 <agendabot> agenda+ Pending Issue Review
14:39:20 <agendabot> agenda+ AOB?
14:39:24 <addison> agenda+ Language Negotiation article
14:39:33 <addison> agenda+ I18N Glossary status
14:40:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:00:19 <addison> present+
15:00:24 <addison> present+ Richard
15:01:25 <addison> present+ Fuqiao, Atsushi
15:01:48 <addison> present+ Bert
15:02:16 <Bert> scribe+
15:03:21 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 1
15:03:21 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:03:24 <addison> agenda?
15:03:57 <atsushi> atsushi has joined #i18n
15:04:35 <addison> agenda+ vertical list article
15:04:43 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 2
15:04:43 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:04:55 <addison> #147
15:04:56 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/147 -> Action 147 Follow up on normativity warnings about glossary (on aphillips)
15:05:21 <addison> #146
15:05:22 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/146 -> Action 146  create new calendar entry for I18N+CSS (on aphillips) due 2024-11-28
15:05:39 <addison> #145
15:05:40 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/145 -> Action 145  publish timezone for wide review (on aphillips) due 2024-11-28
15:05:52 <Bert> addison: Published.
15:06:06 <addison> #144
15:06:06 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/144 -> Action 144  remind everyone to read the language negotiation article (on aphillips) due 2024-11-28
15:06:20 <addison> #143
15:06:20 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/143 -> Action 143  make comments on the encoding issue attached to i18n-activity#1940 (on aphillips) due 2024-11-28
15:07:00 <addison> #142
15:07:01 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/142 -> Action 142 check if we can publish the new version of jlreq (on himorin) due 2024-11-21
15:07:15 <addison> #141
15:07:15 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/141 -> Action 141  set up IETF reviews requested by mnot@ et al (on xfq) due 2024-11-14
15:08:02 <Bert> atsushi: Re #142, I found an issue.
15:08:47 <Bert> addison: I saw John Klensin said something, related to #141
15:08:58 <addison> #127
15:08:59 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/127 -> Action 127  make a list of shared topics of interest between TG2 and W3C-I18N (on aphillips) due 2024-09-30
15:09:12 <Bert> addison: Will talk with Ben Allen Monday
15:09:15 <addison> #125
15:09:15 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/125 -> Action 125  propose creating a UTR for text-emphasis skip if we can get help with maintain (on aphillips) due 2024-09-30
15:09:25 <Bert> addison: Pending on CSS call
15:09:26 <addison> #114
15:09:27 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/114 -> Action 114  read through i18n-activity#1659 and report on whether we're satisfied (on r12a) due 2024-08-22
15:09:40 <Bert> r12a: Not yet
15:09:42 <addison> #90
15:09:43 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/90 -> Action 90  steal some of henri's text from scroll-to-text-fragment for string-search (on aphillips) due 2024-04-18
15:09:55 <addison> #89
15:09:56 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/89 -> Action 89  update i18n specs to support dark mode (on xfq) due 2024-04-18
15:10:07 <Bert> xfq: No progress
15:10:10 <addison> #8
15:10:10 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/8 -> Action 8 Follow up on the status of Canvas and formatted text (on aphillips) due 18 Jul 2023
15:10:13 <addison> #7
15:10:14 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7 -> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github) due 18 Jul 2023
15:10:41 <Bert> addison: One on device posture done
15:10:57 <addison> #4
15:10:58 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on aphillips) due 27 Jul 2023
15:11:11 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 3
15:11:11 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:11:54 <Bert> xfq: What do you want to do with the timeone doc? Announce on Mastodon, Blusky?
15:12:08 <Bert> s/timeone/timezone/
15:12:17 <Bert> addison: I'll send you draft text.
15:12:31 <Bert> s/Blusky/Bluesky
15:12:37 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 4
15:12:37 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:12:46 <addison> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/91/views/1
15:14:13 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 5
15:14:13 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Pending Issue Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:14:22 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending
15:14:43 <addison> #1948
15:14:43 <gb> Issue 1948 not found
15:14:49 <addison> i18n-activity#1948
15:14:50 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1948 -> Issue 1948 Constency between `historyRedo` and `historyUndo` (by aphillips) [pending] [s:input-events] [non-I18N]
15:15:09 <Bert> addison: Editorial
15:15:14 <addison> i18n-activity#1947
15:15:15 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1947 -> Issue 1947 typos on `insertTranspose` (by aphillips) [pending] [s:input-events] [needs-resolution]
15:15:54 <Bert> addison: It reads strangely. Editorial, but it is i18n.
15:15:55 <addison> i18n-activity#1946
15:15:56 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1946 -> Issue 1946 "temporal" confusing in `kill buffer` (by aphillips) [pending] [s:input-events] [non-I18N]
15:16:28 <Bert> addison: #1946 maybe not i18n-related
15:16:28 <gb> Issue 1946 not found
15:16:53 <addison> agenda?
15:17:00 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 9
15:17:00 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- vertical list article -- taken up [from addison]
15:17:53 <r12a> https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/questions/qa-upright-counters-in-vertical.html
15:18:11 <Bert> r12a: I made a few changes already.
15:18:23 <Bert> ... The Japanese folks are concerned about two things:
15:18:52 <Bert> ... The example at top left with a dot next to the number isn't properly centered, and it's not a common approach.
15:19:11 <Bert> ... I might take out the dotted decimal option.
15:20:14 <Bert> ... They pointed out they have a different way of formatting counters, with an opening parenthesis that's lying down, an upright number, and another horizontal paren.
15:20:35 <Bert> ... Don't know how to do that, and what to do with longer lists?
15:20:52 <Bert> ... It' s mixing directions within the marker.
15:21:08 <Bert> addison: Do they never use  the dotted decimal?
15:21:52 <Bert> r12a: In horizontal text they do. Fuqiao and I have seen it in other languages in vertical, but Japanese may not use it.
15:22:45 <Bert> ... I chose the dot to make it clear that the marker is horizontal text in a vertical list.
15:23:23 <Bert> atsushi: From japanese PoV, it is uncommon to combine numbers with affix, such as brackets.
15:23:42 <Bert> ... Number would be in @@yoko.
15:24:29 <atsushi> https://www.toyobijutsu-prt.co.jp/com-design/dtp-63/
15:24:39 <Bert> ... This styling of combining dot and number into one character is uncommon, at least in vertical text.
15:25:32 <atsushi> http://www.otegarushuppan.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/tate1-2.gif
15:26:03 <Bert> addison: So Richard will make some edits to the article?
15:26:40 <r12a> https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/questions/qa-upright-counters-in-vertical.html
15:26:45 <Bert> r12a: If you have more examples with counters, send them to me!
15:27:09 <Bert> atsushi: Next Tuesday meeting could discuss it and find examples.
15:29:46 <Bert> r12a: text-upright property has ana 'all' value, but als a 'digits' value. That might do what we need with the upright digits and horizontal parens.
15:30:34 <Bert> atsushi: The bracket is a single character and only the number is @@.
15:30:59 <Bert> r12a: Yes, and you can do that in normal text, but can you do it inside a marker?
15:31:59 <Bert> atsushi: Combining everything into a single character looks strange.
15:32:32 <Bert> s/text-upright/text-combine-upright
15:32:43 <Bert> addison: Will you look for examples?
15:33:13 <addison> agenda?
15:33:27 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 8
15:33:27 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- I18N Glossary status -- taken up [from addison]
15:33:46 <addison> Guide#269
15:33:47 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/Guide/issues/269 -> Issue 269 Make I18N Glossary definitions okay in normative blocks (by aphillips)
15:33:54 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/147
15:33:55 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/147 -> Action 147 Follow up on normativity warnings about glossary (on aphillips)
15:34:10 <Bert> addison: I talked with plh, see in the action ^^
15:34:19 <Bert> ... I should file an issue on the guide.
15:34:52 <Bert> ... And make the i18n glossary an exception to the normativity rules.
15:35:36 <Bert> ... Nigel Megitt said the glossary could instead be normative.
15:36:07 <Bert> ... We might update the glossary maybe twice a year.
15:36:47 <Bert> xfq: Our definitions are mostly descriptive.
15:37:17 <Bert> addison: We do send people to our glossary if they want to know how something works.
15:37:39 <Bert> ... It's not specific enough for compliance testing.
15:38:32 <Bert> r12a: People will be better off copying the text into their spec, if they need a normative def, so that it doesn't change.
15:39:30 <Bert> addison: A draft that linked to our ‘grapheme cluster’ gets a ReSpec warning, because the term is not normatively defined.
15:40:18 <Bert> r12a: Grapheme cluster is an interesting case. If they used it a few years ago, their spec should continue with the defintion of that time.
15:40:49 <Bert> addison: Our definition doesn't define the grapheme cluster boundary.
15:41:03 <Bert> r12a: Maybe point to Unicode.
15:41:37 <Bert> addison: We want people to have the right term and not make up a new definition.
15:42:22 <Bert> xfq: Agree that people should be able to refer to informative definitions like ours.
15:42:38 <Bert> ... For normative refs, they can refer to Infra or Unicode.
15:42:56 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 7
15:42:56 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- Language Negotiation article -- taken up [from addison]
15:43:06 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/581
15:43:07 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/581 -> Pull Request 581 Initial work on language-negotiation materials (by aphillips)
15:43:32 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/581/files?short_path=7aef4dd#diff-7aef4dd22d30f6ded58eb6eb22421d27f49dbe36c5fc03a27352050d52590dab
15:43:33 <Bert> xfq: I looked at the new pull request. Looks better.
15:43:59 <Bert> ... It resolved my comments?
15:44:18 <Bert> addison: One more week, so you all can read it?
15:44:28 <addison> agenda?
15:44:31 <Bert> s/ comments?/ comments./
15:44:38 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 6
15:44:38 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:45:24 <r12a> https://w3c.social/@webi18n/113560294149211974
15:45:27 <Bert> r12a: I checked for 'text-combine-upright: digits': not (yet) supported in browsers. But an interesting lead.
15:46:08 <Bert> ... xfq noticed that Safari now supports Mongolian. That makes it work in all the browsers.
15:46:25 <xfq> \o/
15:46:33 <r12a> https://bsky.app/profile/webi18n.bsky.social
15:49:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/28-i18n-minutes.html addison
22:22:18 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n