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13:55:06 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/11/27-matf-irc
13:55:06 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:55:07 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
13:55:11 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF 27 November 2024
13:55:11 <Zakim> got it, JJ
13:55:16 <JJ> Meeting: MATF 27 November 2024
13:55:18 <JJ> chair+
13:55:21 <JJ> present+
13:55:37 <JJ> agenda+ Draft Group Note
13:55:43 <JJ> agenda+ 3.1.1 Language of Page
13:55:47 <JJ> agenda+ 3.1.2 Language of Parts
13:55:50 <JJ> agenda+ 3.2.2 On Input
13:55:55 <JJ> agenda+ 4.1.3 Status Messages
14:01:42 <Illai> Illai has joined #matf
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14:04:59 <quintinb> present+
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14:05:16 <Karla> present+
14:05:23 <dotjay> present+
14:05:26 <julianmka> present+
14:05:31 <Illai> present+
14:06:28 <JJ> scribe+ julianmka
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14:06:33 <dotjay> Sorry - poor sleep so think I’d make a hash of it
14:06:35 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:06:35 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Draft Group Note -- taken up [from JJ]
14:08:04 <julianmka> JJ: Summarizes progress with the draft. Met with AGWG on Nov 26. Received feedback about adding a link to each issue in GH where we don't have other info.
14:08:56 <julianmka> JJ: Showing markdown he added to automatically fetch content from WCAG and WCAG2ICT when we need direct quotes.
14:09:47 <julianmka> q+
14:09:55 <JJ> ack julianmka
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14:11:08 <Aashutosh> present+
14:11:12 <julianmka> julianmka: Suggested that we follow a similar heading name convention as WCAG and WCAG2ICT to facilitate others who may need to quote our guidance.
14:13:48 <dotjay> q+
14:13:54 <JJ> ack dotjay
14:14:40 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:14:40 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 3.1.1 Language of Page -- taken up [from JJ]
14:16:52 <julianmka> JJ: Summarizes SC and discussion to date. Identifies "programmatically determined" as an area for us to clarify.
14:18:39 <JJ> q?
14:18:51 <quintinb> q+
14:18:59 <JJ> ack quintinb
14:19:00 <julianmka> JJ: Seems like this applies as-is with some clarification in notes.
14:19:22 <julianmka> quintinb: Does this mean an app must support every language supported by the device?
14:19:23 <quintinb> Does this mean that every language on the device needs to be supported by every app?
14:20:27 <julianmka> JJ: If an app only renders in English on a device set to German, would that be a fail? I tend to think the screen reader would use the appropriate voice.
14:20:32 <quintinb> My concern is putting a lot of weight on AT to determine language programmatically
14:20:59 <dotjay> q+
14:21:15 <julianmka> quintinb: Wonder about putting undue burden on app developers, but we also put a lot of weight on the AT experience.
14:21:47 <JJ> ack dotjay
14:22:26 <GleidsonRamos> q+
14:22:29 <julianmka> dotjay: As this applies to web pages, it's a way to programmatically communicate the language of the page. We don't expect every page to be available in every language.
14:23:11 <julianmka> dotjay: From this SC, it's about the AT having a way to understand that the app is in German or English, which can be accomplished on an app level. I don't think there's a burden on developers to do more than that.
14:23:29 <GleidsonRamos> q-
14:24:22 <quintinb> We also shouldn't be afraid to put on a requirement that current OS's / apps fail - if it's needed it's needed and we just need to defend it
14:24:34 <julianmka> JJ: In Note 1 for this SC in WCAG2ICT, it seems like there are 3 options for how an app could pass
14:25:23 <julianmka> GleidsonRamos: In Android, how do we test this when the language is only available at the device level? It's harder to test with confidence on Android.
14:26:47 <julianmka> JJ: iOS lets you set the language at the application level which would be a pass immediately. To quintinb's point, maybe we would fail an Android app. Or perhaps the 3rd part of Note 1 applies...."Applications implemented in technologies where assistive technologies cannot determine the human language and that do not support the platform “locale
14:26:47 <julianmka> / language” setting may not be able to meet this success criterion in that locale / language."
14:28:52 <julianmka> julianmka: I'm reluctant to fail a whole platform's worth of apps based on limitation imposed by the OS (and ultimately Google)
14:29:34 <julianmka> quintinb: I agree, but the same thing happens with other SCs, like with focus order.
14:29:52 <quintinb> +1 julianmka - but this is happening with dialog focus with regards to 2.4.3 (https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Techniques/failures/F85.html)
14:30:05 <dotjay> For situations like this, where there are OS-level differences, we could perhaps start noting use cases that could go into supporting documentation, a bit like WCAG Techniques documents.
14:30:37 <julianmka> JJ: Does "May not be able to meet" mean "fail" or something else?
14:30:57 <julianmka> +1 dotjay
14:30:59 <JJ> ACTION: Get clarification on "Applications implemented in technologies where assistive technologies cannot determine the human language and that do not support the platform “locale / language” setting >may not be able to meet< this success criterion in that locale / language."
14:31:34 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
14:31:43 <dotjay> This way, we don’t end up “forking” the SCs, and rather applying them more generally across OSes.
14:31:45 <Jamie> present+
14:31:53 <Jamie> q+
14:32:07 <quintinb> q+
14:32:14 <JJ> ack Jamie
14:32:18 <julianmka> JJ: Do we need a note to clarify how this applies/doesn't to iOS and Android?
14:32:50 <JJ> Poll: do we add Note to clarify how to meet this SC on iOS, and that there is not equivalent on Android?
14:33:00 <Aashutosh> if we say on Android it is not possible, wouldn't it be our responsibility to write it such that some of the app suceed?
14:33:04 <julianmka> Jamie: Did we talk about individual screen language vs. app language?
14:37:03 <julianmka> Jamie: Are we saying that the human language of the _app_ or _each screen_ must be programmatically determined? In my current company we warn users if they are going to a screen that is not in their chosen language.
14:38:58 <Jamie> q+
14:39:04 <quintinb> I also think we need to consider having something that's a "soft fail" - and appropriately define "soft fail" - or is that just AAA?
14:40:19 <JJ> ack quintinb
14:40:30 <dotjay> Yeah, I don’t think we can change the WCAG Level for an SC.
14:40:38 <julianmka> Illai: It's frustrating to have an SC that people can't meet ever.
14:41:29 <JJ> q+ Illai
14:41:33 <JJ> ack Illai
14:41:43 <julianmka> JJ: We could say that Android is exempt from this SC, while holding iOS to using the language attribute.
14:41:45 <quintinb> Native apps should be able to meet these criteria. I think apps should fail this and raise an issue on the issue tracker for android
14:42:37 <quintinb> While we call it an OS issue, it's a "system" issue that may not actually be on the OS, and there needs to be an API made available that app devs can use
14:42:40 <julianmka> Illai: We could take the 4.1.2 approach -- if you're using the native language of the platform, you meet that SC.
14:42:51 <quintinb> +1 Illai
14:43:05 <julianmka> +1 Illai
14:43:23 <quintinb> If we admit exception, good luck getting anything out of Google
14:43:27 <Jamie> q+
14:43:51 <JJ> ack Jamie
14:44:13 <JJ> ACTION: Add Note with exception for Android, and indicating how to meet it on iOS
14:44:34 <JJ> ACTION: Get in touch with Google about accessibility supported language at app/screen level
14:45:12 <quintinb> Jamie Think of it kind of like auto-captions. It's not perfect, and it's incredibly prone to hindering performance
14:45:15 <julianmka> Jamie: On the user side, VoiceOver and TalkBack have settings for the screen reader language. I've been trying to understand what triggers the automatic language detection. Is this something anyone here has explored?
14:47:44 <GleidsonRamos> q+
14:48:07 <julianmka> JJ: This may not be a problem for users because of settings and language detection, but this SC is about what developers do, not what ATs detect/assume.
14:48:21 <JJ> ack GleidsonRamos
14:49:07 <julianmka> GleidsonRamos: Spannable strings only work for XML Android, the Jetpack Compose method doesn't seem to work the same way.
14:50:19 <JJ> q?
14:50:20 <julianmka> GleidsonRamos: We were testing on Android 11, maybe it wasn't supported yet
14:50:38 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:50:38 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 3.1.2 Language of Parts -- taken up [from JJ]
14:50:45 <dotjay> Apple have NLLanguageRecognizer which I suspect is responsible for triggering the automatic language detection we see in VoiceOvert: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/naturallanguage/identifying-the-language-in-text
14:50:59 <dotjay> Jamie ^^
14:51:25 <julianmka> dotjay can you add that link to the GH issue?
14:51:34 <dotjay> julianmka: Sure
14:51:43 <julianmka> thanks!
14:52:35 <Jamie> isn't https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/resources/app-languages addressing the issues for language of app for Android?
14:52:42 <Jamie> "Starting with Android Studio Giraffe and AGP 8.1, you can configure your app to support per-app language preferences automatically. "
14:54:08 <quintinb> Jamie the app needs to actually support that language - that's the problem. As a user, I can set the language to German, but it may default back to English because the app has no localisation for German
14:54:31 <julianmka> JJ: Summarizes discussion to date, including EN301 549's determination that meeting Language of Parts is impossible for software.
14:54:59 <JJ> q?
14:55:04 <quintinb> There are localisation files in Android development, if we could programmatically determine via a11y apis which one is loaded, that would solve it
14:55:13 <Jamie> can;t users can only set languages that are available in the OS settings for that app?
14:57:50 <Jamie> q+
14:58:24 <quintinb> it's not about making *developers* lives easier, lol
14:58:46 <JJ> ack Jamie
14:58:46 <julianmka> JJ: Generally, it is possible to set language of parts, but not for all components/all places. Do we say it is not applicable?
14:59:37 <JJ> ACTION: Decide how we apply this SC, given that it is technically possible, but would impose a burden on developers to use accessibility language supported strings everywhere. Could be added as metadata automatically by Google/Apple when loading localized resources.
15:00:23 <quintinb> I have to drop, sorry!
15:00:39 <JJ> Close the queue
15:00:43 <JJ> Zakim, close the queue
15:00:43 <Zakim> ok, JJ, the speaker queue is closed
15:01:05 <julianmka> Jamie: Teams I've worked with sometimes state that SCs that cannot be met is due to limitations of the technology. It is still on the dev team to track when things change, but allows a pass for times when developers cannot do something due to the platform technology.
15:02:36 <dotjay> julianmka: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/14#issuecomment-2504101176
15:03:58 <julianmka> Jamie: Do we need to add a note about hybrid/web view content?
15:04:35 <JJ> ACTION: Add note about `lang` tag for hybrid/webview content to pass 3.1.1 and 3.1.2
15:04:44 <julianmka> JJ: yes, web view content should follow web guidance.
15:06:13 <julianmka> julianmka: Also need to consider webview content rendered within a regular view, not just an in-app browser.
15:07:19 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
15:07:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/27-matf-minutes.html JJ
15:07:27 <dotjay> JJ: Do you know Victor Tsaran? I’ve found him fairly responsive in the past.
15:07:55 <JJ> dotjay: no, can you try to reach out?
15:08:05 <dotjay> Sure.
15:08:19 <JJ> Thx!
15:08:53 <dotjay> I’ll report back on Github/Slack
15:17:15 <JJ> JJ has joined #matf
15:17:17 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
15:17:17 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2024/11/27-matf-actions.rdf :
15:17:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Get clarification on "Applications implemented in technologies where assistive technologies cannot determine the human language and that do not support the platform “locale / language” setting >may not be able to meet< this success criterion in that locale / language." [1]
15:17:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/11/27-matf-irc#T14-30-59
15:17:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Add Note with exception for Android, and indicating how to meet it on iOS [2]
15:17:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/11/27-matf-irc#T14-44-13
15:17:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Get in touch with Google about accessibility supported language at app/screen level [3]
15:17:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/11/27-matf-irc#T14-44-34
15:17:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Decide how we apply this SC, given that it is technically possible, but would impose a burden on developers to use accessibility language supported strings everywhere. Could be added as metadata automatically by Google/Apple when loading localized resources. [4]
15:17:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/11/27-matf-irc#T14-59-37
15:17:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Add note about `lang` tag for hybrid/webview content to pass 3.1.1 and 3.1.2 [5]
15:17:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/11/27-matf-irc#T15-04-35
15:17:27 <JJ> zakim, bye
15:17:27 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been JJ, quintinb, Karla, dotjay, julianmka, Illai, Aashutosh, Jamie
15:17:27 <Zakim> Zakim has left #matf