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17:59:33 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/11/21-aria-irc
17:59:33 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:59:34 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
17:59:34 <spectranaut_> chair: ValerieYoung
17:59:42 <spectranaut_> agendabot, find agenda
17:59:46 <agendabot> spectranaut_, OK. This may take a minute...
17:59:46 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b57854a-65cb-421e-b9e0-f9a8da31f160/20241121T130000/
17:59:46 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:59:46 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/39umzbmh
17:59:46 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/ytyaw6a4
17:59:47 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
17:59:48 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:59:51 <agendabot> agenda+ -> add mapping for html focusgroup attribute https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/565
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17:59:54 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Needs assignment: Spec for menu/menuitem does not provide enough author guidance for structure https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2300
18:00:20 <jamesn> agenda?
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18:01:13 <ray-schwartz> present+
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18:01:15 <katez> present+
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18:01:26 <pkra> present+
18:01:45 <spectranaut_> agenda
18:02:06 <spectranaut_> agenda+ [WebKit does not fall back to 'nameFrom: contents'](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2381)
18:02:10 <filippo-zorzi> filippo-zorzi has joined #aria
18:02:24 <scott> scott has joined #aria
18:02:31 <filippo-zorzi> present+
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18:02:38 <jamesn> zakim, pick a victim
18:02:38 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose filippo-zorzi
18:03:05 <jamesn> zakim, pick a victim
18:03:05 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose katez
18:03:14 <pkra> scribe+
18:03:21 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:03:21 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/39umzbmh -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:03:51 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
18:03:59 <Rahim> present+
18:04:18 <Adam_Page> present+
18:04:21 <StefanS> present+
18:04:23 <pkra> spectranaut_: issue aria 2382 from scott
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18:04:42 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #aria
18:04:56 <giacomo-petri> present+
18:04:58 <pkra> scott: this comes from customizable select work.
18:05:18 <pkra> ... it would be a lot easier to customize the return value if we added aria-valuetext
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18:05:29 <CurtBellew> present+
18:05:31 <pkra> ... right now people need to use very creative markup to make things work
18:05:40 <pkra> ... I gave an example.
18:06:13 <Francis_Storr> Francis_Storr has joined #aria
18:06:13 <pkra> ... additional visible and invisible content is necessar.
18:06:54 <sarah> sarah has joined #aria
18:06:57 <pkra> ... this came from a conversation with sarah.
18:06:57 <sarah> present+
18:07:04 <jamesn> q+
18:07:04 <pkra> ... who had more examples
18:07:35 <pkra> jamesn: does this fit into other discussions around aria-valuetext and calculations around that. Does that fit?
18:07:51 <sarah> q+
18:07:54 <pkra> scott: I wasn't sure but this felt more urgent since it will likely happen son.
18:08:07 <pkra> jamesn: I'd like to see that happen together.
18:08:29 <jamesn> ack me
18:08:43 <pkra> spectranaut_: you should find those other issues when agenda-ing this.
18:08:54 <jamesn> ack sarah
18:09:09 <pkra> sarah: we can discuss this in isolation I think.
18:09:25 <pkra> scott: I linked jamesn's original issue
18:09:44 <pkra> spectranaut_: next new issue aria 2381
18:10:19 <pkra> ... this is on the agenda
18:10:28 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
18:10:34 <pkra> ... next aria 2376
18:11:01 <pkra> ... is a collection of issues with aria-sort.
18:11:07 <pkra> ... I asked some questions.
18:11:24 <pkra> ... the main suggestion is not to limit sort to one column.
18:11:39 <pkra> jamesn: I agree with most of the comments there.
18:12:03 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:12:03 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/ytyaw6a4 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:12:37 <pkra> spectranaut_: aria 2380, editorial on PDF-aam.
18:12:56 <pkra> ... I'll review.
18:13:13 <pkra> jcraig: thank you, it's a respec issue
18:13:23 <pkra> spectranaut_: next aria 2378 on html-aam.
18:13:37 <pkra> ... about using title when alt=""
18:14:10 <pkra> scott: as I commented,  this was an intentional change 2 years ago. However, it seems there was a WPT test that I had missed and engines aligned on the opposite of that decision.
18:14:36 <pkra> ... so no alt="" is ignored if title is not empty.
18:14:55 <pkra> jcraig: was that a change we made based on an WPT test?
18:15:07 <pkra> scott: I had linked to the issue that was discussed for over a year before being merged.
18:15:25 <pkra> ... the outcome was to specifically to ignore the title attribute if alt="" is used.
18:15:44 <pkra> ... however the opposite test was merged into WPT.
18:15:56 <pkra> jcraig: ok. so the test was wrong, causing this.
18:16:00 <pkra> scott: right. I missed it
18:16:03 <pkra> jcraig: same.
18:16:09 <pkra> ... I'll dig into the WPT history.
18:16:19 <pkra> ... and possibly comment
18:16:43 <pkra> spectranaut_: not clear what our next steps are.
18:16:57 <pkra> ... I'll add no-consensus until we're clear on the issue.
18:17:12 <pkra> bryan:  doesn't alt="" map to role=presentation?
18:17:19 <pkra> ... so that would kill the title, no?
18:17:35 <pkra> scott: that was the argument. The long standing guidance was that alt="" means the image is decorative.
18:17:43 <pkra> bryan: so it's also that mapping?
18:17:45 <pkra> scott: yes.
18:18:11 <pkra> spectranaut_: so we need to figure out if implementers would consider switching this back.
18:18:37 <pkra> jcraig: I dug a little. seems like scott and I didn't review each other's work.
18:18:55 <pkra> ... is this due to a difference in relevant specs?
18:19:23 <pkra> scott: there might be a discrepancy. e.g., Mel had looked at it early on, she considered it a bug that Firefox would use the title when alt="".
18:19:34 <pkra> ... not saying that's Mel's position. Just for context.
18:19:43 <Rahim> q+
18:20:11 <pkra> jcraig: it's a good thing to run into. We might run into other similar issues in svg-aam or dpub-aam.
18:20:36 <pkra> scott: I'm concerned that the argument is "everyone has implemented it this way" but that way is wrong.
18:20:57 <pkra> jcraig: true but this particular case doesn't seem as clear cut to me.
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18:21:17 <pkra> Rahim: when the attribute is missing or another labeling technique is used, does alt="" win in those cases?
18:21:36 <spectranaut_> ack Rahim
18:21:53 <pkra> scott: the sequence is aria-label/dby, alt, then alt="" precedence, then if alt missing title can be fallback.
18:21:58 <pkra> Rahim: missing alt is not alt=""?
18:22:15 <pkra> scott: no. missing means it's an image but we have no description. alt="" means presentational.
18:22:36 <pkra> ... even called out in HTML, e.g., CMS having an image but not knowing the alt text. empty may not be a good default.
18:22:53 <pkra> ... otherwise it would default to hidden.
18:23:08 <pkra> aaron: this is an ancient thing from before aria.
18:23:21 <pkra> spectranaut_: next PR aria #2377
18:23:36 <pkra> ... accname change.
18:23:53 <pkra> ... re-orders some steps.
18:24:20 <pkra> ... seems to be another mismatch in implementations
18:24:36 <pkra> bryan: can you add me and Melanie?
18:24:41 <pkra> spectranaut_: thanks.
18:25:15 <pkra> ... next PR aria #2375, html-aam popover from scott
18:25:59 <pkra> scott: minor edit to call out that regardless of popover state, all popovers have same mapping.
18:26:07 <pkra> spectranaut_: any reviewers?
18:26:21 <pkra> sarah: I can do it.
18:26:32 <pkra> Rahim: I can do it.
18:26:48 <pkra> Adam_Page: I can do it.
18:26:53 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:26:53 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:27:59 <pkra> spectranaut_: new PR from sideshowbarker. tentative removal of tests regarding accname
18:28:08 <pkra> jcraig: I was probably auto-assigned.
18:28:22 <Rahim> q+
18:28:25 <pkra> ... is that related to the previous issue?
18:28:29 <pkra> ... maybe not.
18:29:08 <pkra> Rahim: is there an end-of-year deadline for WPT?
18:29:24 <pkra> jcraig: not really. We give ourselves a score. There will be a rollover investigation.
18:29:54 <pkra> ... so all remaining 2024 items should be moved to 2025. But everything we get done is very good. And 2023 it was very nice to hit 100%.
18:30:04 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:30:04 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, pkra
18:30:15 <pkra> ack rahim
18:30:17 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:30:17 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:30:41 <pkra> spectranaut_: we have a deep dive today, at 2pm Pacific.
18:31:02 <pkra> ... on dashboard boundaries.
18:31:14 <pkra> ... then another at 2pm Pacific  on Dec 5
18:31:48 <pkra> jnurthen: warning: those deep dives will be in teams
18:31:53 <pkra> spectranaut_: any other topics?
18:32:20 <pkra> spectranaut_: also please remember that there is no meeting next week
18:32:21 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:32:21 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> add mapping for html focusgroup attribute https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/565 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:32:33 <Francis_Storr> present+
18:33:04 <pkra> spectranaut_: we wanted to continue this discussion.
18:33:30 <pkra> ... the last one ended with "someone has to come up with a proposal"
18:33:36 <pkra> ... this is on html-aam?
18:33:55 <pkra> scott: I don't think focusgroup is actively developed right now?
18:34:08 <Scott> Scott has joined #aria
18:35:06 <pkra> ... I will probably need to help out eventually.
18:36:10 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:36:10 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> Needs assignment: Spec for menu/menuitem does not provide enough author guidance for structure https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2300 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:36:35 <pkra> spectranaut_: needs someone to take it on.
18:36:52 <siri> siri has joined #aria
18:36:59 <siri> present+
18:37:00 <pkra> ... we had a lot of discussion about structuring menu items.
18:37:11 <pkra> ... we had a decision to encourage aria-controls and owns.
18:37:42 <pkra> ... it might not be a huge thing to resolve but can we move it forward?
18:37:58 <pkra> aaron: more examples are probably useful to understand what people and AT likes.
18:38:45 <pkra> ... talkback wanted to something along those lines. But perhaps others do not. I'm not sure about single-switch interfaces or voice input.
18:38:56 <pkra> ... if anybody can think of something that would break, that would be good.
18:39:33 <pkra> ... when we looked, mostly menus have inscrutable structure. Not a lot of similarities. Seems like people try to get some JAWS, NVDA to work, who only care about the focus.
18:39:45 <pkra> spectranaut_: so it's not clear if ATs want this?
18:40:13 <pkra> aaron: talkback does want it. But unclear if others. Not sure if anyone goes beyond screenreaders.
18:40:48 <pkra> sarah: I did test with switch input controls. But they mostly move across web interfaces. It's hard to test a completely different way.
18:41:05 <pkra> spectranaut_: so we need more input beyond talkback.
18:41:22 <pkra> ... we can keep it open. If we remove agenda, it will be lost in the backlog.
18:42:34 <pkra> pkra: do we have a suitable label? Like "needs AT interest"?
18:42:44 <pkra> spectranaut_: right. Not sure how much that helps though.
18:43:03 <pkra> pkra: at least when you view it, you know why it's stuck. Like needs consensus
18:43:21 <pkra> spectranaut_: right and we want to work on AT relations.
18:43:53 <pkra> aaron: yes. and should we have a deep dive on interfacing with ATs and open source projects?
18:43:58 <pkra> jamesn: we had a few?
18:44:08 <pkra> jcraig: the most recent was from me on AT support in specs.
18:44:30 <pkra> spectranaut_: I'll update the issue with a summary
18:44:31 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:44:31 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- [WebKit does not fall back to 'nameFrom: contents'](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2381) -- taken up [from spectranaut_]
18:44:42 <pkra> spectranaut_: jcraig had added agenda
18:45:36 <pkra> jcraig: they files a bug that showed a difference between firefox + webkit  vs chrome.
18:46:02 <pkra> ... tyler tracked it down further.
18:46:19 <pkra> ... it arrives at the point of "when no other name can be found"
18:46:32 <pkra> ... I think perhaps editors can align on the behavior.
18:46:56 <pkra> ... I think tyler thinks chrome behavior is logical. would love to hear from aaron if that was intentional and other implementors.
18:47:02 <pkra> bryan: could you add me?
18:47:11 <pkra> aaron: me too
18:47:44 <pkra> scott: I did a quick test yesterday, came to the same conclusions as Tyler. Though only on windows, so no safari
18:48:24 <pkra> jcraig: the only downside I can see is that if there's a typo leads to no label (e.g., attribute typo), then the label might be very long. But perhaps a good signal to developers.
18:48:39 <pkra> ... I just want to make sure we make a conscious decision here.
18:50:09 <pkra> zakim, close meeting
18:50:09 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close meeting', pkra
18:50:14 <pkra> zakim, end meeting
18:50:14 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ray-schwartz, katez, pkra, filippo-zorzi, Daniel, Rahim, Adam_Page, StefanS, giacomo-petri, CurtBellew, sarah, Francis_Storr, siri
18:50:17 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
18:50:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/21-aria-minutes.html Zakim
18:50:25 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, pkra; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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