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14:16:06 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:16:07 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid
14:16:18 <wendyreid> meeting: Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce
14:16:27 <wendyreid> date: 2024-11-19
14:16:29 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
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15:05:54 <jgriggs_prh> present+
15:05:54 <gautierchomel> present+
15:06:00 <wendyreid> present+
15:06:24 <gautierchomel> scribe + gautierchomel
15:06:29 <gautierchomel> scribe+ gautierchomel
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15:09:51 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: we have three point to discuss. First is the PR and comments received by APA and others. Second is to write the techniques. Third is to incubate features we've talked about that is now possible because we are discussing a new charter.
15:09:52 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2659
15:12:32 <gautierchomel> First.  We received feedback from APA, I tried to adress them in this PR. It was a concern about the title and confusions about reading order. We were missing details and reference for a large audience (not EPUB experts).
15:12:36 <gautierchomel> q+
15:12:41 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel
15:12:44 <wendyreid> scribe+
15:13:08 <wendyreid> gautierchomel: To me the main problem with the document, it might need to be split into two or three documents
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15:13:17 <wendyreid> ... part of the document is about guidance for reading systems
15:13:27 <wendyreid> ... and the other part is about authors
15:13:36 <wendyreid> ... split part 5 into a separate document
15:13:57 <wendyreid> ... the section on RS guidance will also be impacted by incubation on new technologies
15:14:27 <wendyreid> ... secondly, I think that to simplify further use, we should separate what is related to programmatic accessibility, like reading order
15:14:37 <wendyreid> ... everything that will help us make reflow versions of FXL
15:15:00 <wendyreid> ... and everything that addresses assistive technologies, and everything related to design
15:15:43 <wendyreid> ... for someone who wants to make FXL accessible they should follow the programmatic parts, then if they want to make it more inclusive to other disabilities, look at visual presentation
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15:18:46 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: I would like to keep them in this document for now. Maybe reordering with Programmatic / Visual super sections. Because I feel it lacks of maturity to be splitted now.
15:19:51 <gautierchomel> JonasLillqvist: I tink it has a value to have both in one document (programmatic and visual) instead of dealing with two documents. I agree to separate them better in the same document.
15:19:55 <gautierchomel> q+
15:20:02 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel
15:20:14 <wendyreid> gautierchomel: I am suggesting we split because there are different audiences
15:20:45 <wendyreid> ... we like to have everything in one document, but when showing to publishers, they focus on the visual aspects, the production team will want to focus on the programmatic parts
15:21:08 <CharlesL> q+
15:21:11 <wendyreid> ... two main sections for now, and wait for more maturity before splitting?
15:21:25 <wendyreid> ... we need to think about who will be using this document aside from the accessibility experts
15:21:29 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
15:23:02 <CircularKen> q+
15:23:14 <wendyreid> ack Ken
15:23:17 <wendyreid> ack CircularKen
15:23:17 <gautierchomel> CharlesL: strange view from the diff.
15:23:56 <gautierchomel> CircularKen: It's not bad to me to have one document for different audiences. Splitting section 2 would do for me.
15:24:37 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: right, I can take that action, spliting section 2.
15:25:00 <CharlesL> q+
15:25:34 <gautierchomel> q+
15:25:41 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
15:26:03 <gautierchomel> CharlesL: did we solved the issue about accross the fold contents?
15:26:55 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: we adress it with a recomandation, but we cannot say "solved", in a programmatical way.
15:27:35 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel
15:28:04 <wendyreid> gautierchomel: One other point, the abstract should address two points
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15:28:16 <Hadrien> present+
15:28:25 <wendyreid> ... first what APA and others found difficult to understand was what was an accessible FXL, which was explained in the overview
15:28:35 <wendyreid> ... bring this line into the abstract
15:29:01 <wendyreid> ... we should also explain the structure of the document in the abstract as well
15:30:33 <gautierchomel> wendyreid:
15:30:33 <gautierchomel> Next topic: Technique document
15:31:23 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: the technique document squeleton is here : https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/fxl-a11y-tech/
15:32:00 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: structure should stay the same. There's more work to do.
15:32:30 <CharlesL> We need to update the name to include "Best Practices" as well I would think.
15:33:02 <Hadrien> q+
15:33:18 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
15:34:14 <CircularKen> q+
15:34:15 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: a common issue is content breaked down in pieces of sentences. We should cover it. (i.e. span soup)
15:34:34 <wendyreid> ack CircularKen
15:35:21 <Hadrien> q+
15:35:57 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
15:36:08 <gautierchomel> CircularKen: we should state that span used for text position should not be considered when rendering a fixed layout in an accessible view. They have no semantic attached.
15:36:22 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: with span soup, there is also often a lack of structure.
15:37:03 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: other challenge is that some AT insert spaces when meet a span
15:37:05 <gautierchomel> q+
15:37:36 <gautierchomel> CircularKen: is the screen reader interp^reting spans? We should explain them not to do it.
15:37:40 <Hadrien> q+
15:38:17 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel
15:38:36 <gautierchomel> CircularKen: span come from indesign. lack of structure come from missing authoring good practices.
15:38:59 <wendyreid> gautierchomel: We need to potentially have another documents to address the techniques for reading systems
15:39:14 <wendyreid> ... techniques for authors, techniques for reading systems, what should they do
15:39:48 <wendyreid> ... today we have FXL with lack of structure, tons of problems, many reading systems don't display them in reflow, but you can have it with PDF
15:40:20 <wendyreid> ... same with AT, today they display something, braille, audio, no rules exist for that
15:40:24 <wendyreid> ... whole topic in itself
15:40:35 <wendyreid> ... to build guidelines for reading system display
15:41:01 <wendyreid> ... inclusive of assistive technologies, to explain what they should do when they encounter book elements
15:41:12 <wendyreid> ... what to do when encountering things like spans
15:41:17 <wendyreid> ... whole work of defining things
15:41:31 <wendyreid> ... different from providing techniques for authoring
15:41:34 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
15:43:42 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: back on the impact of span, screen reader is a black box, documenting what they do is usefull. On the otherside, TTS is underdefined now. What TTS does is extracting a strcuture and make decisions about tags and semantics. This is the unwriten spec that will also lead the reflow display.
15:44:10 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: It's probably not the realm of FXL but a wider spec.
15:45:16 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: that's the incubation work to be done.
15:45:51 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: we can explore what screen readers do with spans and other tags.
15:46:22 <CharlesL> q_
15:47:08 <gautierchomel> CharlesL: when we find issues, would it make sense to have a section to document them?
15:48:03 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: yes, probably.
15:48:09 <Hadrien> q+
15:48:13 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
15:49:03 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: documenting is important, so is classifying them, what affects screen readers, is it plateform specific, etc.
15:51:14 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: keep thinking about other programatic issues to document in the techniques. I'll rearrange that document too.
15:51:17 <CircularKen> q+
15:51:20 <wendyreid> ack CircularKen
15:51:26 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: any other business or issue?
15:52:00 <gautierchomel> CircularKen: can we have a point about how incubation works ?
15:53:54 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: it's to have proof of need, use, etc. Any example of something, like a test implementation, a prototype. With reflection about feasability, including main stacks like accessibiliyty or security or privacy considerations.
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15:54:58 <Hadrien> q+
15:55:10 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
15:56:23 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: I'm mostly done working on voice selection. I've started documenting what to extract, how to process text and tokenize it across different languages. I'll be happy to submit to the group working on TTS.
15:57:31 <Hadrien> General repo for this project: https://github.com/HadrienGardeur/read-aloud-best-practices
15:57:51 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: I'll update the PR and open another for the techniques. Next meeting in 2 weeks.
15:58:11 <Hadrien> On-going work for extracting structural elements: https://github.com/readium/guided-navigation/blob/main/roles.md
15:58:51 <Hadrien> Examples on how structure could be extracted: https://github.com/readium/guided-navigation/tree/main/examples/read-aloud
15:59:41 <wendyreid> zakim, please end meeting
15:59:41 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jgriggs_prh, gautierchomel, wendyreid, Hadrien
15:59:43 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:59:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/19-fxl-a11y-minutes.html Zakim
15:59:47 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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