15:33:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ag
15:33:18 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/11/19-ag-irc
15:33:18 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:33:19 <Zakim> Meeting: AGWG Teleconference
15:33:25 <alastairc> agenda?
15:33:35 <alastairc> zakim, clear agenda
15:33:35 <Zakim> agenda cleared
15:33:46 <alastairc> agenda+ Intros and Annoucements
15:33:53 <alastairc> agenda+ Keyboard wrap-up briefing
15:34:08 <alastairc> agenda+ Issue 2296 https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/2296/files
15:34:49 <alastairc> EN 301 549 Tool https://labs.etsi.org/rep/HF/en301549/-/issues/219
15:34:55 <alastairc> agenda+ EN 301 549 Tool https://labs.etsi.org/rep/HF/en301549/-/issues/219
15:35:12 <alastairc> agenda+ WCAG 3 https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/pull/129
15:35:26 <alastairc> agenda+ WCAG3 - check acknowledgements
15:36:19 <alastairc> agenda+ WCAG3 - definitions
15:36:23 <alastairc> agenda+ WCAG3 - numbering
15:36:27 <alastairc> agenda+ WCAG3 - scope (to web)
15:36:36 <alastairc> agenda+ Sub-group break outs
15:36:39 <alastairc> agenda?
15:45:47 <alastairc> regrets: SteveF
15:45:53 <alastairc> present: alastairc
15:45:55 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #ag
15:45:57 <alastairc> chair: alastairc
15:45:59 <Rachael> present+
15:47:47 <alastairc> regrets+ NatTarnoff
15:52:42 <Chuck> regrets+ Jennifer Strickland
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15:56:17 <ToddL> present+
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15:57:05 <ShawnT> present+
15:57:50 <ChrisLoiselle> present+
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16:01:45 <Jennie_Delisi> present+
16:02:00 <filippo-zorzi> present+
16:02:03 <Chuck> regrets+ Sarah Horton
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16:02:39 <bruce_bailey> present+
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16:02:46 <Ben_Tillyer> present+
16:02:51 <wendyreid> present+
16:02:58 <alastairc> zakim, please pick a scribe
16:02:58 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Jennie_Delisi
16:03:17 <alastairc> zakim, please pick a scribe
16:03:17 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose alastairc
16:03:21 <alastairc> zakim, please pick a scribe
16:03:21 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ToddL
16:03:30 <Azlan> Azlan has joined #ag
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16:03:39 <Azlan> present+
16:03:40 <alastairc> zakim, please pick a scribe
16:03:40 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ChrisLoiselle
16:03:46 <alastairc> zakim, please pick a scribe
16:03:46 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Ben_Tillyer
16:03:46 <DJ> DJ has joined #ag
16:03:51 <Francis_Storr> present+
16:03:51 <DJ> regrets+
16:03:52 <Ben_Tillyer> exempt
16:03:56 <alastairc> zakim, please pick a scribe
16:03:56 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Azlan
16:03:59 <mbgower> mbgower has joined #ag
16:04:08 <mbgower> present+
16:04:10 <alastairc> zakim, please pick a scribe
16:04:10 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Jennie_Delisi
16:04:13 <alastairc> zakim, please pick a scribe
16:04:13 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose wendyreid
16:04:13 <ChrisLoiselle> I'll do first hour. One second.
16:04:28 <ChrisLoiselle> scribe: ChrisLoiselle
16:04:29 <tiffanyburtin> present+
16:04:29 <wendyreid> scribe+
16:04:45 <ljoakley1> present+
16:04:54 <alastairc> zakim, take up next item
16:04:54 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Intros and Annoucements -- taken up [from alastairc]
16:04:58 <ChrisLoiselle> So Wendy it is?
16:05:07 <ChrisLoiselle> thanks!
16:05:12 <ljoakley1> is there a reason that we are not using the transcript feature of zoom?
16:05:19 <wendyreid> alastairc: Anyone new or changed affiliation?
16:05:26 <alastairc> zakim, take up next item
16:05:26 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, alastairc
16:05:30 <Makoto> Makoto has joined #ag
16:05:32 <alastairc> zakim, take up item 2
16:05:32 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Keyboard wrap-up briefing -- taken up [from alastairc]
16:05:32 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #ag
16:05:43 <bruce_bailey> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uE2WCxPmvNopdCbuZQm_-cGyEdxEouRmZ8UUIlyutoU/edit?tab=t.7tvvfbgqxbc#heading=h.xlqs7tqpmaam
16:05:51 <Makoto> present+
16:05:52 <wendyreid> alastairc: Briefings, Bruce can you do the Keyboard wrap-up?
16:06:03 <mgarrish> present+
16:06:13 <wendyreid> [screen sharing]
16:06:21 <julierawe> julierawe has joined #ag
16:06:23 <wendyreid> bruce_bailey: We started off with 5 closely related outcomes
16:06:23 <nina> present+
16:06:25 <julierawe> present+
16:06:27 <GreggVan> present+
16:06:43 <wendyreid> ... we worked on them in the order given us and we've been meeting for a while
16:06:51 <wendyreid> ... running notes in the original document
16:07:01 <wendyreid> ... starting here with 6.2.1 comparable keyboard effort
16:07:05 <wendyreid> ... around 45 initial user needs
16:07:14 <wendyreid> ... divided amongst the 5 outcomes
16:07:34 <wendyreid> ... lots of redundancy, for the next iteration it may help to put these together
16:07:50 <wendyreid> ... the goal of the subgroup is to have something to publish
16:08:14 <Glenda> Glenda has joined #ag
16:08:19 <wendyreid> ... there was an attempt also to break the document into tabs, in the navigation bar on the document everything is there and broken up
16:08:44 <wendyreid> ... we spent some time on a composite outcome and decision tree
16:08:44 <Gez> Gez has joined #AG
16:08:52 <wendyreid> ... going to focus now on the 5 we have
16:09:01 <wendyreid> ... 6.2.1 comparable keyboard effort
16:09:14 <Gez> present+
16:09:27 <wendyreid> ... [reading the content of the outcome]
16:09:37 <Laura_Carlson> Laura_Carlson has joined #ag
16:09:48 <wendyreid> ... one concern we have with this is that we need more research or put parameters around it
16:09:59 <wendyreid> ... two factors are comparable time or comparable keystrokes
16:10:13 <wendyreid> ... comparable keystrokes is tricky to compare to mouse actions
16:10:29 <wendyreid> ... there might be user testing to research that, how do you compare keystrokes to mouse actions?
16:10:37 <wendyreid> ... not feasible for the numbers to be 1:1
16:10:45 <wendyreid> ... keyboard access is very serial
16:10:52 <wendyreid> ... point and click is random access
16:11:12 <wendyreid> ... counting the actions is not similar to one another, but time taken would be relevant
16:11:26 <wendyreid> ... we wanted to put some parameters around how many keystrokes are reasonable for an action
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16:11:58 <wendyreid> ... trying to figure out what is the upper limit
16:12:14 <wendyreid> ... 10 keystrokes may not feel slow to some, but extreme to others
16:12:23 <kirkwood> present+
16:12:35 <wendyreid> ... switch input, could feel onerous
16:12:44 <wendyreid> ... 6.2.2 consistent keyboard interaction
16:12:54 <wendyreid> ... [reading content of document]
16:13:22 <wendyreid> ... trying to determine what is "standard keyboard input" was a challenge
16:13:26 <Graham> Graham has joined #ag
16:13:31 <Graham> present+
16:13:32 <wendyreid> ... difficult to document, especially over multiple platforms
16:13:37 <wendyreid> ... no decision tree for this one
16:13:45 <wendyreid> ... 6.2.3 custom keyboard commands
16:13:54 <wendyreid> ... change of name, wanted to make it clear what this was addressing
16:14:12 <wendyreid> ... this has a bit of overlap with 6.2.2, but spent more time here
16:14:21 <wendyreid> ... one thing we decided early on was to put this on the author
16:14:35 <wendyreid> ... they know what they are introducing, what they are making active
16:14:48 <wendyreid> ... decision tree for this one, linear and possible to go through all of the optiosn
16:15:02 <dan_bjorge> present+
16:15:14 <wendyreid> ... not going to write out all default actions, [reads out content of document]
16:16:02 <wendyreid> ... one of the things here is that there are considerations for alternative means, don't want to rule out doing things like putting actions on divs
16:16:16 <wendyreid> ... if it's standard behaviour it doesn't need to be documented, but does if there is
16:16:22 <wendyreid> ... 6.2.4 keyboard
16:16:26 <wendyreid> ... big overarching outcome
16:16:34 <wendyreid> ... all user flows can be completed by keyboard entry
16:16:41 <wendyreid> ... [reads content of document]
16:17:14 <wendyreid> ... we did not get far with the decision tree, we were in the process of starting over
16:17:22 <wendyreid> ... 6.2.5 no keyboard trap
16:17:31 <wendyreid> ... straightforward, subset of keyboard only
16:17:37 <wendyreid> ... [reads document]
16:17:49 <wendyreid> ... decision tree is available for this one
16:18:34 <wendyreid> ... can navigate whole page, and can exit any element
16:18:39 <scott> scott has joined #ag
16:18:57 <wendyreid> ... tab and shift-tab should have proper behaviours, but not identical/mirrored behaviours
16:19:03 <wendyreid> ... that's about it
16:19:19 <wendyreid> ... one more iteration could get something that could go into WCAG3, lots of work remaining
16:19:33 <GreggVan> q+
16:19:39 <wendyreid> alastairc: The keyboard group is restarting, so if there are any comments, please comment in the document
16:19:40 <alastairc> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uE2WCxPmvNopdCbuZQm_-cGyEdxEouRmZ8UUIlyutoU/edit?tab=t.7tvvfbgqxbc#heading=h.xlqs7tqpmaam
16:19:46 <alastairc> ack GreggVan
16:19:51 <ljoakley1> present+
16:20:02 <wendyreid> GreggVan: Why did we not keep looking at the composite?
16:20:20 <wendyreid> bruce_bailey: [missed that]
16:21:00 <wendyreid> GreggVan: [go to the composite], these are the user needs
16:22:00 <wendyreid> ... one of the things I found in looking at this, we had all of the user needs
16:22:05 <wendyreid> ... they kept getting repeated
16:22:24 <wendyreid> ... we had multiple things that were talked about to solve the same problem
16:22:38 <wendyreid> ... looking at the tests in the decision tree, and the trees kept asking to do the same things
16:22:51 <wendyreid> ... same tests run multiple times
16:22:58 <wendyreid> ... what if we put it into one composite outcome
16:23:18 <wendyreid> ... grouping all of the requirements together into a single outcome, one goal
16:23:51 <wendyreid> ... then the user needs collapse into the groups
16:23:54 <kirkwood> +1 to Gregg’s simplification
16:24:02 <wendyreid> ... and the decision tree and tests is one workflow
16:24:05 <wendyreid> ... more logical approach
16:24:19 <wendyreid> ... we haven't quite finished this, but it was a single pass through
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16:25:00 <wendyreid> ... there was one other one to mention, of all of the outcomes, expecting the number of commands to be same or equivalent has issues
16:25:25 <wendyreid> ... speed of random access will never be the same as serial access
16:25:38 <wendyreid> ... asking for them to be equivalent or near the same is near impossible
16:26:13 <wendyreid> ... if you find this in other outcomes, where there are lots of repeated steps, it might be worth looking all making a composite
16:26:21 <Ben_Tillyer> +1
16:26:23 <wendyreid> ... fewer but layered goals/outcomes
16:26:26 <Ben_Tillyer> q+
16:26:31 <wendyreid> ... allows you to mix in the testable things and best practices
16:26:39 <MJ> present+
16:27:05 <wendyreid> ... breaking things down to the smallest element for testability, things will get too granular, similar to WCAG 2 and separated requirements and best practices
16:27:09 <bruce_bailey> s[missed that]/group felt we needed more orientation before building out composite outcome
16:27:26 <alastairc> ack Ben_Tillyer
16:28:06 <wendyreid> Ben_Tillyer: Just in response to Gregg, I know we can't directly compare mouse input to keyboard input, there are definitely keyboard commands and multiple steps that users will undoubtedly find more complex
16:28:21 <wendyreid> ... there is some comparison we can make, but it might not be directly, not 1:1
16:28:31 <wendyreid> ... I think there is something to look at in terms of complexity or cognitive load
16:29:01 <alastairc> q+ on putting different methods at different levels, e.g. comparable effort.
16:29:03 <Detlev> q+
16:29:08 <wendyreid> ... second point, on the combined tree, I feel that if you had combined all of the different keyboard tests into one, you'd get less repetition, but you may spend a long time getting to one specific test
16:29:14 <wendyreid> ... if its at the end of the composite tree
16:29:29 <wendyreid> ... if you're tasked with testing one thing, it may take longer
16:30:01 <wendyreid> ... if you had a test suite for this, and you remember the steps, or might not remember yourself, the test suite would record your answer, it could be partially automated
16:30:17 <wendyreid> ... I don't think a tester would ever see the same test they know and run it again
16:30:33 <alastairc> ack alastairc
16:30:33 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on putting different methods at different levels, e.g. comparable effort.
16:30:40 <wendyreid> alastairc: Just going to timebox this as we have other things to do
16:30:44 <Graham> Graham has joined #ag
16:30:50 <wendyreid> ... the comparable effort item, it could be put at a different level
16:31:15 <wendyreid> ... the fallback could be to assess whether there are more efficient ways to adjusting the UI for keyboard user
16:31:28 <bruce_bailey> +1 that "comparable effort" should be higher level
16:31:31 <wendyreid> ... in the supplemental requirements, have a stronger requirement about the comparable time/effort
16:31:39 <wendyreid> ... couple of potential ways to deal with this one
16:31:45 <alastairc> ack Detlev
16:32:00 <wendyreid> Detlev: My comment is that, I'm unsure whether the tree as presented would be how people test
16:32:28 <wendyreid> ... keyboard is something that's manually tested, the assumption may be that each test runs through the tree, but that may not really be how people do the tests
16:32:47 <wendyreid> ... the question is whether more a theoretical semantic process to assess the process
16:32:53 <wendyreid> ... or for use in the field?
16:32:55 <Ben_Tillyer> That echoes my understanding Detlev
16:32:59 <Rachael> q+
16:33:09 <wendyreid> alastairc: The decision tree is for people to assess what methods to use
16:33:20 <wendyreid> ... but we are still working out how the structure works for different guidelines
16:33:21 <alastairc> ack Rachael
16:33:30 <wendyreid> Rachael: Agree with the last part, don't get too stuck
16:33:47 <wendyreid> ... it's not a testing tree, as designed now, as it has evolved, it asks what guidelines apply
16:33:53 <wendyreid> ... not on a per-item basis
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16:34:15 <jon_avila> present+
16:34:17 <alastairc> It may help to review the examples in the upcoming WCAG 3 publication (in two agenda items time).
16:34:34 <wendyreid> ... but if we got to an application and it had images of text, based on the decision tree, I know this will work because the tools can support the function
16:34:46 <Laura_Carlson> present+ Laura_Carlson
16:34:53 <wendyreid> ... more asking what criteria you're testing again, not how you're testing on a step-by-step basis
16:35:08 <wendyreid> alastairc: Move on to a brief presentation from Gregg from a new tool
16:35:11 <alastairc> zakim, please take up next item
16:35:11 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Intros and Annoucements -- taken up [from alastairc]
16:35:16 <wendyreid> ... might be inspiration for WCAG3
16:35:18 <alastairc> zakim, please take up item 3
16:35:18 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Issue 2296 https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/2296/files -- taken up [from alastairc]
16:35:21 <alastairc> zakim, please take up item 4
16:35:21 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- EN 301 549 Tool https://labs.etsi.org/rep/HF/en301549/-/issues/219 -- taken up [from alastairc]
16:36:06 <wendyreid> GreggVan: EN 301549 is the interational version of Section 508
16:36:12 <wendyreid> ... it directly uses WCAG
16:36:22 <wendyreid> ... for both web and documents and software
16:36:31 <wendyreid> ... there are 287 different provisions in it
16:36:46 <wendyreid> ... it is designed to make it easy to what applies to your particular product
16:36:50 <kevin> s/international version/European version/
16:37:01 <wendyreid> ... I have a video here showing the product, how it works
16:37:32 <wendyreid> GreggVan: [showing video]
16:37:59 <alastairc> audio-desc of the video: Showing a spreadsheet of provisions in a nested structure.
16:38:02 <kevin> s/European version/international version/
16:38:56 <alastairc> audio-desc of the video: Showing a table of provisions which can be checked / unchecked.
16:41:22 <Ben_Tillyer> q+ to ask is the plan to make this a website AND is this approved by the authors of EN... AND was this made by you as an individual or is it affiliated to a company AND (finally) is any data collected from its usage?
16:41:54 <alastairc> Ben - this is part of the process for creating the next version of the EN (see the link in the agenda above)
16:42:43 <alastairc> I think it is created by Gregg as a demo.
16:42:51 <ChrisLoiselle> q+ what specific tab in the workbook are you referencing in the demo?
16:42:54 <dan_bjorge> q+
16:43:10 <ChrisLoiselle> what specific tab in the workbook are you referencing in the demo?
16:43:18 <alastairc> q+ ChrisLoiselle to ask what specific tab in the workbook are you referencing in the demo?
16:43:38 <Glenda> present+
16:44:15 <Ben_Tillyer> q-
16:44:57 <ShawnT> There is a tool already available which we are working on updating it. [ICT accessibility requirements wizard](https://2021-prod.ict-cio.ssc-spc.cloud-nuage.canada.ca/)
16:44:59 <wendyreid> GreggVan: That gives a quick overview, are there any questions?
16:45:08 <alastairc> ack dan_bjorge
16:45:28 <wendyreid> dan_bjorge: This looks like a useful starting point, I would hesitate describing it as not requiring judgement calls
16:45:33 <wendyreid> ... there are still some in there
16:45:48 <wendyreid> ... I would want more guidance if I were someone filling this out, maybe links to more context
16:45:58 <scott> scott has joined #ag
16:46:02 <wendyreid> ... what is "communication client"? To add to make it more useful
16:46:04 <scott> present+
16:46:19 <wendyreid> GreggVan: What I meant was no judgement based on the maker, but on the user, yes
16:46:39 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #ag
16:46:45 <alastairc> ack ChrisLoiselle
16:46:45 <Zakim> ChrisLoiselle, you wanted to ask what specific tab in the workbook are you referencing in the demo?
16:46:48 <wendyreid> ... that's a good suggestion, I tried to include some cues, but linking it to definitions or a help doc, that is a superb idea
16:47:14 <wendyreid> ChrisLoiselle: I know you showcased many different tabs, is that a specific tab for the different functions?
16:47:27 <wendyreid> GreggVan: Yes, there's 4 tabs, the captions covered it up
16:47:41 <wendyreid> ... there's introduction, provisions, report
16:47:53 <wendyreid> ... as you check the checkboxes, the provisions page will hide the provisions
16:48:00 <wendyreid> ... the printout just gives you everything in one place
16:48:17 <alastairc> agenda?
16:48:21 <wendyreid> ... that report doesn't just give you the filtered list and the reasons why its filtered
16:48:23 <alastairc> zakim, close item 1
16:48:23 <Zakim> agendum 1, Intros and Annoucements, closed
16:48:24 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:48:24 <Zakim> 3. Issue 2296 https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/2296/files [from alastairc]
16:48:26 <alastairc> zakim, close item 14
16:48:26 <Zakim> I only see 10 items on the agenda
16:48:29 <alastairc> zakim, close item 4
16:48:29 <Zakim> agendum 4, EN 301 549 Tool https://labs.etsi.org/rep/HF/en301549/-/issues/219, closed
16:48:31 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:48:31 <Zakim> 3. Issue 2296 https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/2296/files [from alastairc]
16:48:32 <wendyreid> ... so someone else may be able to check for errors
16:48:38 <wendyreid> ChrisLoiselle: Great, thank you
16:48:50 <wendyreid> GreggVan: I just noticed there is a bug, so I'll put up a clean copy
16:49:09 <wendyreid> ... here is a link to the latest version of EN 301 549 and the tool are both available
16:49:15 <wendyreid> ... in a public location
16:49:41 <wendyreid> ... don't download it quite yet until I fix it
16:49:51 <GreggVan> https://labs.etsi.org/rep/HF/en301549/-/issues/219
16:49:53 <bruce_bailey> bruce_bailey has joined #ag
16:50:18 <wendyreid> GreggVan: There's a bunch of things going on in there, there's bug in there, it pops an error on launch
16:50:20 <alastairc> zakim, take up item 2
16:50:20 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Keyboard wrap-up briefing -- taken up [from alastairc]
16:50:23 <alastairc> zakim, take up item 3
16:50:23 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Issue 2296 https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/2296/files -- taken up [from alastairc]
16:50:40 <wendyreid> alastairc: Ok next topic, we have gone through the CFC process for WCAG 2.2 errata updates
16:50:55 <wendyreid> ... there was one that hasn't made it through, we just need to go through the process
16:51:04 <wendyreid> ... the change is in the link
16:51:11 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/2296/files
16:51:29 <wendyreid> alastairc: Changing the index in the introduction, it's linking through to the supplemental guidance
16:51:43 <wendyreid> ... was once a longer link, it's just updating it to go to the right place
16:51:56 <wendyreid> ... supplemental guidance, which goes to all of the guidance
16:52:06 <wendyreid> ... asking does anyone have any issues wit this update?
16:52:09 <alastairc> Update: We encourage authors to refer to our <a href="https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG2/supplemental/about/">supplemental guidance on improving inclusion</a> for people with disabilities, including cognitive and learning disabilities, low vision, and more.
16:52:16 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #ag
16:52:22 <wendyreid> s/wit/with/
16:52:41 <wendyreid> alastairc: If no issues, is this a reasonable update to include in the errata publication?
16:52:51 <wendyreid> ... if so, we'll tag it on to the CfC
16:52:51 <LenB> LenB has joined #ag
16:52:56 <LenB> present+
16:53:14 <alastairc> draft RESOLUTION: accept PR 2296 to update the Background section of WCAG 2.2 and 2.1
16:53:21 <Glenda> +1
16:53:21 <julierawe> +1
16:53:22 <wendyreid> +1
16:53:22 <Ben_Tillyer> +1
16:53:22 <Chuck> +1
16:53:22 <Francis_Storr> +1
16:53:24 <Laura_Carlson> +1
16:53:25 <mgarrish> +1
16:53:25 <bruce_bailey> +1
16:53:27 <GreggVan> +1
16:53:27 <dan_bjorge> +1
16:53:28 <kirkwood> +1
16:53:28 <ShawnT> +1
16:53:28 <Jennie_Delisi> +1
16:53:29 <ToddL> +1
16:53:29 <scott> +1
16:53:31 <LenB> +1
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16:53:35 <ChrisLoiselle> +1
16:53:36 <Rachael> +1
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16:53:38 <mbgower> +1
16:53:39 <Gez> +1
16:53:43 <ljoakley1> +1
16:53:49 <alastairc> RESOLUTION: accept PR 2296 to update the Background section of WCAG 2.2 and 2.1
16:53:54 <alastairc> agenda?
16:53:54 <GreggVan> q+
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16:54:09 <alastairc> zakim, close item 3
16:54:09 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, alastairc
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16:54:15 <wendyreid> GreggVan: One thing from the last topic, the where structure, "where this is true"
16:54:15 <alastairc> ack GreggVan
16:54:16 <alastairc> zakim, close item 3
16:54:16 <Zakim> agendum 3, Issue 2296 https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/2296/files, closed
16:54:18 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:54:18 <Zakim> 5. WCAG 3 https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/pull/129 [from alastairc]
16:54:50 <wendyreid> ... it might be useful for us to consider structuring WCAG in a similar structure, we have it now, but adopting something similar in our own documentation
16:54:51 <alastairc> zakim, take up item 5
16:54:51 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- WCAG 3 https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/pull/129 -- taken up [from alastairc]
16:55:03 <wendyreid> alastairc: Next item is WCAG3 updates
16:55:07 <wendyreid> ... have a PR up
16:55:13 <alastairc> Preview: https://deploy-preview-129--wcag3.netlify.app/guidelines/#
16:55:14 <wendyreid> ... a preview is available as well
16:55:30 <wendyreid> alastairc: We had a few thoughts from Hidde, mostly editorial and incorporated
16:55:40 <wendyreid> ... question about Voice Control, nothing to add for that yet
16:55:48 <wendyreid> ... this is something we are looking at
16:55:53 <wendyreid> ... questions about email
16:55:59 <alastairc> zakim, take up item 6
16:55:59 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- WCAG3 - check acknowledgements -- taken up [from alastairc]
16:56:09 <wendyreid> ... subtopics, the acknowledgements
16:56:13 <wendyreid> ... tried to update them
16:56:16 <GN015> There might be some further topics to add in the future. Can you please remind where to find the parking lot?
16:56:20 <Rachael> acknowledgements: https://deploy-preview-129--wcag3.netlify.app/guidelines/#acknowledgements
16:56:27 <wendyreid> alastairc: If we are missing anyone, please let us know
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16:56:34 <alastairc> zakim, take up item 7
16:56:34 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- WCAG3 - definitions -- taken up [from alastairc]
16:56:49 <wendyreid> alastairc: Feedback on the definitions, they have been added
16:57:02 <wendyreid> ... or the things referenced from current guidelines, or TBC as we don't have content
16:57:11 <wendyreid> ... taken from WCAG2, or being worked on
16:57:16 <wendyreid> ... marked as exploratory or developing
16:57:22 <wendyreid> ... any other comments or questions?
16:57:23 <Rachael> q+
16:57:28 <alastairc> ack Rachael
16:57:44 <wendyreid> Rachael: Just to say that we pulled the terms from the content moving to developing from exploratory
16:57:56 <wendyreid> ... as we move from exploratory, we add the terms then
16:57:58 <alastairc> zakim, take up item 8
16:57:58 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- WCAG3 - numbering -- taken up [from alastairc]
16:58:00 <bruce_bailey> Q+
16:58:28 <wendyreid> bruce_bailey: Just noticed with acknowledgements, sometimes its "Invited Experts" or "Invited Expert"
16:58:34 <Chuck> ack Br
16:58:36 <wendyreid> alastairc: There was a question on numbering and adding numbers in
16:58:42 <wendyreid> ... question is how desirable it is
16:59:04 <Chuck> q+ to ask for a scribe change
16:59:07 <wendyreid> ... I know previously some people thought it was a mistake, giving numbers to the SCs, if numbers are referenced not names
16:59:21 <wendyreid> ... and at this stage, they will move around and aren't referenceable
16:59:24 <GreggVan> q+
16:59:31 <wendyreid> ... if there are other thoughts we could open up a discussion on that
16:59:41 <Chuck> ack Ch
16:59:41 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to ask for a scribe change
16:59:55 <julierawe> q+
16:59:59 <Glenda> scribe: Glenda
17:00:17 <alastairc> ack GreggVan
17:01:06 <Glenda> Gregg:  hard to find things with short names (if they aren’t in alpha order).  We might want to go with simple sequential numbers (like an ordered list) at this stage.  Example:  I’m taking about Keyboard Access #32.
17:01:35 <alastairc> ack julierawe
17:02:04 <alastairc> q+ on other mechanisms
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17:02:16 <Kimberly> present+
17:02:55 <Glenda> Julie:  if numbers are concerned for referencing, what about bullets.  Some of the sections are so long, it is helpful to have a way to keep track of what level I’m reading.  Very hard to follow and the indentention and font sizes aren’t helping enough.
17:03:00 <alastairc> ack me
17:03:00 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on other mechanisms
17:03:24 <Glenda> Alastair:  we might be able to use accordians
17:03:37 <alastairc> zakim, take up item 9
17:03:37 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- WCAG3 - scope (to web) -- taken up [from alastairc]
17:04:01 <julierawe> q+
17:04:09 <tiffanyburtin> +1 Julie to additional methods to help visually chunk the information to help it be a bit more readable
17:04:47 <alastairc> ack julierawe
17:04:48 <Glenda> Alastair:  How does this apply to native mobile apps and non-web context.  Current charter restricts us to web tech.  So we may get more flexibility in our next charter, we will try.  Then it is a matter of how do we enable the structure for other types of tech.
17:05:18 <Glenda> Julie:  inconsistency, sometimes we say WCAG 3.  Sometimes we say WCAG 3.0.  We need to be consistent.
17:06:21 <Glenda> Alastair:  are we ready for a resolution Rachael?
17:07:06 <julierawe> q+
17:07:10 <Glenda> Rachael:  We have some editorial changes. And we have a few pull requests.  Are we comfortable to make this editorial changes and give you 2 days to review and move to CFC at end of this week?
17:07:16 <ChrisLoiselle> q+
17:07:23 <alastairc> draft RESOLUTION: Approval for merging the changes into the Editors draft in preparation for CFC for publication
17:07:27 <alastairc> ack julierawe
17:07:30 <Glenda> Julie:  Are you including formating the guidelines section so it is easier to navigate?
17:07:32 <alastairc> ack ChrisLoiselle
17:07:38 <Glenda> Rachael:  Yes
17:07:49 <Rachael> q+
17:08:02 <alastairc> ack Rachael
17:08:23 <Glenda> Chris:  My email about scope beyond web, was just clarification.
17:08:41 <alastairc> draft RESOLUTION: Approval for merging the changes into the Editors draft in preparation for CFC for publication
17:08:49 <Detlev> +1
17:08:52 <ShawnT> +1
17:08:53 <ChrisLoiselle> +1
17:08:54 <Chuck> +1
17:08:54 <Laura_Carlson> +1
17:08:55 <Jennie_Delisi> +1
17:08:56 <Rachael> +1
17:08:57 <Makoto> +1
17:08:59 <Ben_Tillyer> 0 been away for a few weeks, haven't reviewed
17:09:02 <LenB> +1
17:09:03 <mgarrish> +1
17:09:05 <Francis_Storr> +1
17:09:05 <Gez> +1
17:09:08 <Glenda> +1
17:09:10 <MJ> +1
17:09:14 <tiffanyburtin> +1
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17:09:27 <bruce_bailey> +1
17:09:28 <ToddL> _1
17:09:31 <ToddL> +1
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17:09:34 <kirkwood> +1
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17:09:54 <julierawe> present+
17:09:56 <julierawe> +1
17:10:08 <alastairc> RESOLUTION: Approval for merging the changes into the Editors draft in preparation for CFC for publication
17:10:17 <alastairc> agenda?
17:10:54 <Chuck> Views:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pN6zc0YjxY2TmhmrSii0Y5ghzjdNOqMV5F4a_Dfqsyo/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.7bct10877dbh
17:11:05 <Chuck> Voice Control:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IpVHc8-PRn7z-wqZ32G4zG4CjFdZT0HAJ787WfUxNP0/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.nykct8nbnejl
17:11:14 <Chuck> Text Contrast:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BIcyTcyGz-vb6FCAzzhXcXFukktgjUU6-dM0rYsuYMM/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.4fu2rk4qoiti
17:11:25 <bruce_bailey> q+ not coming back correct?
17:12:16 <ShawnT> Text to speech: https://docs.google.com/document/d/13NASXgLB6yVtZJqiN-HsD1xOIffOXbe0/edit?usp=share_link&ouid=114934085576672059156
17:12:27 <Glenda> Alastair:  we will not be coming back afterwards
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18:01:11 <Laura_Carlson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:01:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/19-ag-minutes.html Laura_Carlson
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