14:52:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
14:52:34 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/11/14-wcag2ict-irc
14:52:34 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:52:35 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda?
14:52:35 <Zakim> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
14:52:54 <ChrisLoiselle> zakim, clear agenda
14:52:54 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:53:02 <ChrisLoiselle> chair:  Mary Jo Mueller
14:53:17 <ChrisLoiselle> meeting:  WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
14:53:44 <ChrisLoiselle> Zakim, please time speakers at 2 minutes
14:53:44 <Zakim> ok, ChrisLoiselle
14:53:59 <ChrisLoiselle> present+
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14:54:50 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda+ Announcements
14:55:22 <maryjom> zakim, start meeting
14:55:22 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:55:24 <Zakim> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
14:55:27 <maryjom> zakim, clear agenda
14:55:27 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:55:37 <maryjom> chair:  Mary Jo Mueller
14:55:53 <maryjom> rrsagent, make minutes
14:55:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/14-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
14:56:02 <maryjom> Zakim, please time speakers at 2 minutes
14:56:02 <Zakim> ok, maryjom
14:56:07 <maryjom> agenda+ Announcements
14:56:12 <maryjom> agenda+ Phase 2 of WCAG2ICT update
14:56:21 <maryjom> regrets: Bruce Bailey, Shawn Thompson, Loïc
14:56:30 <maryjom> present+
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14:58:55 <PhilDay> present+
14:58:57 <PhilDay> agenda?
14:59:08 <PhilDay> scribe+ PhilDay
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15:02:28 <shadi> present+
15:02:37 <PhilDay> present+
15:02:42 <PhilDay> zakim, next item
15:02:42 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Announcements -- taken up [from maryjom]
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15:03:27 <GreggVan> present+
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15:03:29 <PhilDay> Announcements. Slightly related. EN 301 549 - new draft has been issued in GitLab
15:03:37 <PhilDay> https://labs.etsi.org/rep/HF/en301549/-/issues/219
15:03:37 <Devanshu> present+
15:03:46 <maryjom> https://labs.etsi.org/rep/HF/en301549/uploads/0eb63034f4e12ebc1e8c0224860f7a43/en_301549-24-11-11.docx
15:04:28 <PhilDay> PhilDay has joined #wcag2ict
15:04:31 <PhilDay> present+
15:04:33 <PhilDay> scribe+ PhilDay
15:04:54 <PhilDay> GreggVan: There is also an Excel tool to help you to filter different provisions
15:05:00 <PhilDay> https://labs.etsi.org/rep/HF/en301549/uploads/ed5075ba655649f603a0342a357b80d4/DEMO_TOOL_for_DRAFT_EN_301_549_v_12-November-2024.xlsm
15:05:20 <PhilDay> Allows you to filter out any non-applicable provisions
15:05:42 <Sam> Sam has joined #wcag2ict
15:05:48 <Sam> present+
15:06:12 <GreggVan> https://labs.etsi.org/rep/HF/en301549/-/issues/219
15:07:11 <PhilDay> Gregg also has dated clean versions to help comparisons with what has changed in the latest EN drafts.
15:07:20 <PhilDay> q+
15:07:52 <PhilDay> ack PhilDay
15:09:18 <PhilDay> Gregg to post details on what has changed in the last month in EN 301 549.
15:10:14 <PhilDay> zakim, next item
15:10:14 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Phase 2 of WCAG2ICT update -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:10:25 <maryjom> TOPIC: WCAG2ICT work statement
15:10:29 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
15:10:38 <PhilDay> https://github.com/maryjom/wai-website/blob/patch-1/pages/about/groups/task-forces/wcag2ict/work-statement.md
15:10:44 <PhilDay> https://github.com/w3c/wai-website/pull/942/files
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15:11:19 <PhilDay> Last week we did a retrospective - and one thought was to widen our existing guidance first, before we get into AAA. Consider alternative language to help SCs to apply in a better way
15:11:50 <PhilDay> Also add best practices, or other technologies that cannot support an SC
15:12:32 <PhilDay> maryjom asked AG WG chairs on what our rules of engagement are on broadening application of SCs. Still exploring what might be possible
15:13:14 <PhilDay> maryjom Meeting with chairs of AG WG and W3C reps on Monday to discuss further
15:13:16 <ChrisLoiselle> WCAG2ICT Retrospective Document https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aRklm7C24AdjC_DRfA8M6Nfglh8WFWwUAnFCrsPCE5o/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.bbbinvj1vb6j
15:14:08 <Sam> q+ MJ is this a meeting TF member can attend?
15:14:41 <PhilDay> Regardless of that - we can continue to work on an explainer - so we need to develop the outline of this for AG WG to review direction.
15:14:51 <PhilDay> q?
15:15:42 <PhilDay> Sam: Is this meeting open to TF members, or is it just for facilitators?
15:15:57 <PhilDay> maryjom: Keep it to facilitators for now - then feedback to the TF
15:16:32 <PhilDay> Sam: There were others who expressed input - Bruce - may help to provide examples
15:16:56 <maryjom> TOPIC: Part 2 – Proposed outline for the WCAG2ICT explainer
15:17:09 <maryjom> Link to Explainer outline in Google docs: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hyei09Viby1bCoZnDLYwY9VWpzRvteK9pqt4v9sWCJE/edit?usp=sharing
15:17:29 <PhilDay> Mary Jo started an outline, Chris has started to propose content.
15:17:31 <PhilDay> TF to review
15:17:54 <PhilDay> Based on the WCAG3 explainer from AG WG - took that and adjusted for our work
15:18:54 <PhilDay> GreggVan: WCAG has an explainer, but no link from WCAG to the explainer. Having a link from WCAG2ICT to our explainer would be useful
15:19:15 <PhilDay> maryjom: Yes this is the intent. Would be available from WCAG2ICT, and from our task force pages as well
15:19:52 <PhilDay> Abstract, status of document sections.
15:20:15 <PhilDay> Then Introduction, Background & Development History
15:20:23 <PhilDay> Then set Goals
15:20:40 <PhilDay> Much of this can be taken from existing WCAG2ICT note.
15:20:51 <Sam> q+
15:20:57 <PhilDay> Main section: Intent and Usage of the WCAG2ICT Note.
15:21:03 <PhilDay> To clarify what it does and does not contain.
15:21:32 <PhilDay> Explain that we do not give techniques, we don't explicitly state what an SC applies to.
15:22:08 <PhilDay> q?
15:22:24 <PhilDay> Also commenting on what is out of scope for WCAG2ICT
15:22:48 <maryjom> ack sam
15:23:12 <PhilDay> Sam: Clarification. Would DOJ references address intent and usage, or just given as an example?
15:23:51 <PhilDay> maryjom: Looks like they expect WCAG2ICT to state whether an SC applies to a given technology, but this is beyond our scope
15:25:30 <PhilDay> GreggVan: Canada used to have a tool - that told you what applied, and what didn't. However, it was often wrong. Need the tool to be a subtractive tool - and only removes it if the SC has a pre-condition, and the technology does not meet this pre-condition.
15:26:09 <PhilDay> Difficult to filter any further than these pre-condition - as you then have to make assumptions about how a technology works; and this could change in the future.
15:26:20 <PhilDay> s/pre-condition/pre-conditions
15:27:27 <PhilDay> maryjom: Should we define exceptions for SCs - if DOJ is using WCAG for native mobile apps - and pointing to WCAG2ICT for applicability.
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15:27:36 <PhilDay> s/./?
15:28:37 <Sam> q+
15:29:25 <shadi> q+
15:29:35 <PhilDay> ack Sam
15:29:35 <maryjom> ack Sam
15:29:58 <GreggVan> q+
15:30:06 <maryjom> ack shadi
15:30:12 <PhilDay> Sam: EN is European. There is some difference between that and the US - there is room for investigation on applicability and what we can do to help
15:30:40 <PhilDay> shadi: To get out of this issue. Background section of WCAG2ICT - we mention other standards like EN 301 549. Maybe make it more explicit in the explainer.
15:31:07 <PhilDay> ... If looking for normative language - refer to EN 301 549, don't read further in WCAG2ICT
15:31:16 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
15:31:17 <shadi> ack me
15:31:51 <PhilDay> GreggVan: EN 301 549 is being used by Europe, Australia, Canada  and elsewhere
15:32:12 <Sam> q+
15:32:19 <Sam> q-
15:32:47 <PhilDay> GreggVan: There were discussions about making it an ISO standard - but this made it more difficult to update, so kept it as an EN.
15:32:50 <Sam> q+
15:33:09 <PhilDay> shadi: 3 standards orgs couldnt' agree
15:33:36 <PhilDay> WCAG2.2 has been submitted as an ISO standard
15:33:36 <maryjom> ack Sam
15:34:03 <PhilDay> Sam: It is not an international standard. It is copied but modified by these other countries that have 'adopted' it.
15:34:23 <Sam> q-
15:34:27 <PhilDay> ... There is divergence in the versions of the EN 301 549 in the other countries
15:35:02 <PhilDay> EN 301 549 also used in Kenya, India, and Canada.
15:35:36 <PhilDay> Any other thoughts on this outline for the explainer?
15:35:56 <PhilDay> It will be referenced in updates to the work statement so AG WG can review our proposed work.
15:36:41 <PhilDay> Then AG WG can review & approve our phase 2 work.
15:36:58 <PhilDay> q+
15:37:02 <Sam> +1 to outline
15:37:07 <maryjom> ack PhilDay
15:37:39 <GreggVan> q+
15:37:41 <ChrisLoiselle> Phil: Technical language is part of this note. Perhaps explaining what "normative" means in plain English.
15:39:08 <PhilDay> maryjom: Could ask COGA task force for input - if it uses too much jargon, can we summarise instead?
15:39:25 <PhilDay> q?
15:39:33 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
15:40:05 <PhilDay> GreggVan: On the topic. Why are we calling it an explainer rather than an understanding document? Is explainer brief, and understanding goes through clause by clause?
15:40:43 <PhilDay> ... Understanding are difficult to do - takes lots of time - but is very useful to explain the wording, and how we came to that conclusion  / wording.
15:41:29 <PhilDay> Text might be modified to consider technology that might not be able to implement something.
15:41:45 <PhilDay> ... Understanding doc would be useful
15:42:39 <PhilDay> ... John Slayton.  Huge advocate of plain language. Spent many hours with Gregg to try and improve WCAG. The plainer the language - the more ambiguous it gets
15:44:07 <PhilDay> ... If the Explainer is in plain language - it could help, then use the full note to help with ambiguity.
15:44:45 <Sam> +1
15:44:46 <PhilDay> Are we ready to go with the outline in the current form?
15:44:59 <PhilDay> Explainer: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hyei09Viby1bCoZnDLYwY9VWpzRvteK9pqt4v9sWCJE/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.wlcptmhola14
15:45:27 <ChrisLoiselle> +1
15:45:33 <Sam> +1
15:45:40 <maryjom> POLL: Is the proposed WCAG2ICT Explainer outline sufficient to send to the AG WG for review?
15:45:45 <PhilDay> Yes
15:45:47 <GreggVan> yes
15:45:47 <Sam> yes
15:45:50 <ChrisLoiselle> yes
15:45:51 <shadi> yes
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15:46:21 <maryjom> RESOLUTION: The proposed WCAG2ICT Explainer outline is ready to send to the AG WG for review, as-is.
15:46:42 <GreggVan> q+
15:46:51 <PhilDay> maryjom has already opened issues in GitHub - so we could start to work on these issues.
15:47:03 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
15:48:00 <PhilDay> GreggVan: When talking to other leaders, ask if it is within our remit to do an Understanding WCAG2ICT document. Not just an explainer of what it is about, but goes through each SC and gives the background as to how we came to that conclusion.
15:49:00 <ChrisLoiselle> Oh man Phil!
15:50:00 <PhilDay> ... Something like Legislative Notes - this was part of the decision, worth recording for posterity
15:53:19 <PhilDay> We will not be meeting on Thanksgiving. We will meet next week.
15:53:45 <PhilDay> Trying to get work statement in a form that can be reviewed by AG WG before end of the year.
15:54:32 <PhilDay> Other topic that was raised last week - Google docs don't work very well for screen reader users on a Mac.
15:54:55 <PhilDay> Using Google Drive with Microsoft Word might work better for screen readers, but can break formatting
15:55:23 <PhilDay> q+ to ask if wiki could be used for collaborative documents
15:56:24 <ChrisLoiselle> rrsagent, make minutes
15:56:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/14-wcag2ict-minutes.html ChrisLoiselle
15:56:33 <ChrisLoiselle> Phil: Is there a way of co-editing a wiki?
15:56:48 <PhilDay> maryjom: GitHub wiki - multiple editors overwrite other changes. So not suitable
15:56:52 <ChrisLoiselle> MaryJo: Saving on GitHub wiki overrides and it is not a collaborative tool.
15:58:19 <PhilDay> maryjom will keep us up to date on the Monday meeting.
15:58:30 <PhilDay> Prioritise next week what is in scope for round 2
15:58:31 <GreggVan> gregg@raisingthefloor.org
15:58:48 <PhilDay> If you want the comparison docs, email Gregg.
15:59:37 <PhilDay> > rrsagent, make minutes
15:59:48 <PhilDay> rrsagent, make minutes
15:59:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/14-wcag2ict-minutes.html PhilDay
15:59:57 <maryjom> zakim, end meeting
15:59:57 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ChrisLoiselle, maryjom, PhilDay, shadi, GreggVan, Devanshu, Sam, Daniel, yes
15:59:59 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:00:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/14-wcag2ict-minutes.html Zakim
16:00:06 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, maryjom; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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