17:59:22 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:59:27 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/11/14-aria-irc
17:59:27 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:59:28 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
17:59:34 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:59:34 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:59:35 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b57854a-65cb-421e-b9e0-f9a8da31f160/20241114T130000/
17:59:35 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:59:35 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/5642w9jx
17:59:35 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/bduxzfhp
17:59:37 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
17:59:40 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:59:42 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Feature: Braille only regions for student testing https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2352
17:59:45 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Stop automatically exposing details relation for figure -> figcaption https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/564
17:59:49 <agendabot> agenda+ -> [AriaNotify] Is ariaNotify the best name for the new notification API? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2332
18:00:34 <ray-schwartz> ray-schwartz has joined #ARIA
18:00:39 <filippo-zorzi> present+
18:00:51 <smockle> present+
18:00:52 <ray-schwartz> present+
18:01:24 <jamesn> regrets+
18:01:37 <katez> katez has joined #aria
18:01:41 <katez> present+
18:01:55 <pkra> scribe+
18:02:03 <pkra> present+
18:02:05 <Brett-Lewis> Brett-Lewis has joined #aria
18:02:07 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:02:07 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/5642w9jx -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:02:44 <melsumner> melsumner has joined #aria
18:02:54 <melsumner> present+
18:03:03 <pkra> spectranaut_:  aria#2374 is editorial for editors
18:03:04 <scott> scott has joined #aria
18:03:29 <Francis_Storr> Francis_Storr has joined #aria
18:03:30 <siri> siri has joined #aria
18:03:32 <pkra> ... html-aam#569
18:03:53 <pkra> scott: from last html-aam PR that needed porting to monorepo.
18:04:20 <pkra> ... jcraig had made a point about title in combination with description attributes
18:04:20 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
18:04:30 <pkra> ... I thought we should track this.
18:04:47 <pkra> spectranaut_: should we agenda it?
18:04:52 <pkra> scott: yes. I don't have time right now.
18:04:53 <alisonmaher> alisonmaher has joined #aria
18:04:57 <alisonmaher> present+
18:05:15 <pkra> jcraig: I think all the implementations do not throw away title but shoehorn it somewhere.
18:05:31 <pkra> ... might need an implementor to look through engines and gather what's there in practice.
18:05:45 <pkra> ... I can help finding the locations.
18:06:01 <pkra> spectranaut_: let's put that in the issue comments.
18:06:30 <pkra> ... maybe even good first issue
18:06:47 <siri> present+
18:07:11 <pkra> scott: looking at the tree in, say, chrome, can help - seeing how it's ignored. It's more about figuring out how this could be use
18:07:24 <pkra> ???: should this be in aria-at?
18:07:36 <smockle> s/???:/smockle:
18:07:49 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
18:07:50 <pkra> thanks smockle!
18:07:53 <pkra> spectranaut_: maybe. but let's start by researching this.
18:08:03 <pkra> ... next html #568
18:08:20 <pkra> scott: with options in the select, you can use the label attribute or text as child.
18:08:35 <pkra> ... also for customized select.
18:08:41 <pkra> ... label will override what's in the option.
18:09:08 <pkra> ... but in a datalist, you can have an option, do things similarly but you can have both and some browsers will expose both.
18:09:22 <pkra> ... in that case, browsers might expose second line as description
18:09:27 <pkra> ... some ignore label completely.
18:09:36 <pkra> ... feels like we should standardize to ensure no content is lost.
18:09:53 <pkra> spectranaut_: ok, sounds like this needs some research.
18:10:07 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
18:10:11 <pkra> siri: what's the difference with datalist?
18:10:12 <StefanS> present+
18:10:25 <pkra> scott: datalist associates a text input with a popup of options.
18:11:01 <pkra> ... whereas the alternative is listbox like.
18:11:13 <pkra> ... we could discuss this outside triage
18:11:16 <pkra> siri: thanks.
18:11:41 <pkra> spectranaut_: this needs research.
18:11:50 <pkra> scotto: I've done the research but just don't have the time.
18:11:52 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:11:52 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/bduxzfhp -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:12:17 <pkra> spectranaut_: aria #2373 for html-aam
18:12:23 <pkra> scott: that's the moved PR
18:12:39 <pkra> ... this needs to be re-reviewed for mono-repo merge.
18:12:47 <pkra> spectranaut_: anyone besides jamesn and myself?
18:12:56 <pkra> melsumner: I'll do it.
18:13:13 <pkra> jcraig: I'll take a look.
18:13:30 <pkra> spectranaut_: aria#2371 for aria spec
18:14:00 <pkra> scott: this is for an older discussion to allow US spelling
18:14:08 <pkra> spectranaut_: it's not editorial, right?
18:14:36 <pkra> scott: don't know. It changes a note. But it's a MUST Not for authors.
18:14:45 <pkra> jcraig: it aligns with an WPT we have.
18:14:59 <pkra> ... you can add jcraig and rahim
18:15:40 <pkra> scott: the only question might be in which one should be favored when both are present. I don't have strong opinions but included a decision.
18:15:56 <pkra> ... but if other options are preferred, e.g., dom rder
18:16:15 <pkra> jcraig: let's not let dom order override a valid property with an invalid one
18:16:24 <pkra> spectranaut_: last one is editorial. I'll take it on
18:16:28 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:16:28 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:16:45 <pkra> spectranaut_: anything we need to take a look at?
18:16:48 <pkra> ... nope.
18:16:51 <pkra> zakim, close this item
18:16:51 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
18:16:52 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:16:52 <Zakim> 4. -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates [from agendabot]
18:17:00 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:17:00 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:17:29 <pkra> spectranaut_: we had set  whitespace deep dive last week.
18:17:43 <pkra> melsumner: yes, Dec 5. All of the issues in the whitespace project.
18:17:57 <pkra> ... open question was the time slot.
18:18:30 <pkra> ... either the usual hour before the regular meeting or at the regular meeting.
18:18:36 <pkra> ... I don't have a preference myself.
18:18:39 <aaronlev> aaronlev has joined #aria
18:18:49 <jcraig> q+
18:18:54 <pkra> spectranaut_: and we'll have a meeting in the afternoon next week for AUS participation.
18:19:05 <pkra> ... does this need James Teh?
18:19:29 <pkra> melsumner: implementors would be important so that would be fine.
18:19:39 <pkra> jcraig: I won't make it but will ping Rahim.
18:20:03 <pkra> melsumner: I can only do Dec 5 so otherwise we do it in January.
18:20:11 <pkra> spectranaut_: would afternoon work?
18:20:14 <pkra> melsumner: yes.
18:20:27 <pkra> spectranaut_: great. I'll ping Jamie.
18:20:45 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:20:45 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, pkra
18:20:52 <spectranaut_> ack jcraig
18:20:54 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:20:54 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Feature: Braille only regions for student testing https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2352 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:21:30 <jocelyntra> jocelyntra has joined #aria
18:21:56 <pkra> aaronlev: we got feedback from Markku.
18:22:03 <pkra> jcraig: I had pinged him as well.
18:22:39 <pkra> aaronlev: we now have some more information from them. They have regions with complex markup so braille props would be insufficient.
18:22:54 <spectranaut_> q?
18:23:09 <melsumner> thank you jcraig for confirming
18:23:13 <pkra> ... that seems like a reason.
18:23:29 <pkra> ... we should see if this is important enough for us to add such a platform.
18:24:00 <pkra> jcraig: I've pinged stakeholders on our end. This is weird one. It has some risk, reducing accessibility intentionally.
18:24:10 <pkra> ... I see the point but it's a tough one.
18:25:35 <pkra> aaronlev: had some more communication. there might be other ways to do this. Right now, JAWS does this by looking into the class name. The QTI group has discussed aligning testing people around this.
18:25:55 <scott> scott has joined #aria
18:26:18 <pkra> jcraig: there's always such a risk with this. With the braille props, people immediately wanted to use this. But my gut reaction is: if you have to ask, you shouldn't use this.
18:26:49 <pkra> ... maybe we need something separate. Akin to dpub-aria. A testing one, maybe implemented in a way that won't cause problems on the open web.
18:27:13 <pkra> ... somehow limiting to testing apps or testing mode. ideas like that.
18:27:27 <pkra> aaronlev: I'd be in favor of doing something via QTI industry agreement.
18:28:08 <pkra> ... it's so niche, that feels good. Otherwise the spec just grows with these niche features.
18:28:14 <pkra> jcraig: and JAWS does this?
18:28:37 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
18:28:40 <pkra> aaronlev: yes, we're moving away from exposing DOM attributes. But class seems unlikely due to history.
18:28:48 <pkra> jcraig: it feels microformats like.
18:29:35 <pkra> spectranaut_: so we will wait for feedback.
18:31:12 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:31:12 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> Stop automatically exposing details relation for figure -> figcaption https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/564 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:32:33 <pkra> aaronlev: at some point we decided to expose detail relationship for figures. JAWS feedback was that it became very verbose on some pages. This caused JAWS to disable details announcements but users won't turn it on.
18:32:47 <pkra> ... for figure and figcaption they are so close to each other, it seems unnecessary.
18:33:06 <spectranaut_> PR: https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2224
18:33:06 <pkra> scott: we had updated the PR for this. We just need to accept the PR.
18:33:29 <pkra> spectranaut_: right. the PR is waiting for reviews. Please take a look.
18:34:01 <pkra> scott: the reason for the original change was from previous feedback that getting accname from figcaption was too verbose.
18:34:28 <pkra> ... the figcaption would repeat this, the information was too verbose. We decided on details but implementation of that was not clear at that point.
18:34:50 <pkra> ... then as per this feedback, then the group adjusted the PR again.
18:35:16 <pkra> ... since chromium was I think the only engine to implement this, this PR doesn't have a lot of impact on engines.
18:35:27 <pkra> ... now we have the roles to be exposed.
18:35:36 <pkra> spectranaut_: thanks, scott!
18:35:48 <sarah> sarah has joined #aria
18:35:55 <pkra> scott: due to the mono-repo move, this has to be re-reviewed.
18:36:11 <pkra> spectranaut_: sometimes it helps to open an issue on firefox.
18:36:38 <pkra> jcraig: I'll take a look
18:36:42 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:36:42 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- -> [AriaNotify] Is ariaNotify the best name for the new notification API? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2332 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:37:13 <pkra> alisonmaher: this revisits TPAC discussion.
18:37:17 <pkra> ... we had discussed the name.
18:37:42 <pkra> ... jamie and aaron had good points on keeping the name
18:37:59 <spectranaut_> q?
18:38:10 <pkra> ... now would like to move this forward
18:38:38 <pkra> spectranaut_: there do not seem to be objections, so this seems to be a go.
18:38:54 <pkra> alisonmaher: great!
18:39:20 <spectranaut_> topic: https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2362
18:39:24 <pkra> dmontalvo: there's a PR from jcraig on core-aam. We wanted to get this for snapshot. Would be good if people can take a look.
18:39:42 <pkra> jcraig: I feel like a snapshot should not have a TBD in it.
18:40:44 <pkra> ... if we shipped a feature on a single system, it seems shipping TBDs for all others is not good.
18:41:03 <pkra> ... but perhaps the question is if we want to do this, or say it's at risk.
18:41:17 <pkra> ... that's why I think this is important
18:41:37 <pkra> spectranaut_: it seems this one is actively implemented in blink. webkit has an open bug as well.
18:42:06 <pkra> jcraig: webkit would come when voiceover support can be implemented.
18:42:13 <pkra> ... until that time it's speculative.
18:42:26 <pkra> ... so I didn't want to file a bug on gecko.
18:43:00 <pkra> spectranaut_: so since it's unclear if this will be implemented on mac, I wonder if we should not merge this before the snapshot.
18:43:11 <pkra> jcraig: then make a similar PR to pull it out on the aria end?
18:44:11 <pkra> ... we're not opposed to it, it's just low-priority. I'd suggest merging this for snapshot. Then we can discuss remaining issues, like the can-i-use like listing.
18:44:12 <spectranaut_> ?
18:44:15 <spectranaut_> q?
18:44:24 <pkra> ... but for new features, I wonder what the process should be.
18:44:44 <pkra> ... e.g. label synonyms is only in VO right now.
18:44:55 <pkra> spectranaut_: ok, landing this on core-aam seems relatively low-risk.
18:45:21 <pkra> ... browser can expose it, VO can pick it up eventually but it doesn't have a negative impact.
18:45:46 <pkra> jcraig: would we want a note in the ARIA spec that this is not supported across all ATs?
18:45:49 <sarah> q+
18:46:03 <pkra> cynthia: WCAG used to have an at risk marker.
18:46:38 <pkra> jcraig: that's more for when we don't have 2 platforms and AT implementations.
18:46:49 <spectranaut_> ack sarah
18:46:52 <pkra> ... so at risk seems incorret.
18:47:05 <pkra> sarah: there's a lot of stuff in ARIA that has support deficits.
18:47:18 <pkra> ... so this seems like a lot of work if we did it for the whole spec.
18:47:21 <cyns> q+
18:47:34 <pkra> ... if we only do it moving forward, then this might cause confusion for older stuff.
18:47:40 <pkra> ... doing all of it is a very big problem.
18:47:48 <pkra> jcraig: that's a good point.
18:48:05 <pkra> cynthia: it is a lot of work but keeping track of things in PRs is, too.
18:48:20 <pkra> ... wrapping up on what's going on and coming up in ARIA is hard.
18:48:39 <pkra> ... so having things in the spec with status, that would be really good.
18:48:57 <pkra> spectranaut_: dmontalvo, what's the deadline for the snapshot?
18:49:09 <pkra> dmontalvo: Nov 22 would be ideal.
18:49:17 <pkra> ... no problem if we miss a few weeks.
18:49:46 <pkra> spectranaut_: jcraig could you propose a note that matches your concern?
18:50:00 <pkra> jcraig: let's merge this PR and wait on the note for the spec.
18:50:21 <pkra> .... I agree with sarah that there are bigger gaps and it's a larger projects.
18:50:37 <cyns> q+
18:50:50 <pkra> ... e.g. I was looking at caniuse for ARIA and it has just 1 aria feature entry with "partial"
18:51:14 <pkra> ... if we could start documenting all aria features on caniuse, we could cross-references.
18:51:31 <pkra> ... that would include notes for browser and ATs.
18:51:35 <spectranaut_> ack cyns
18:51:51 <pkra> cynthia: there's also the baseline people who might be interested.
18:51:56 <cyns> https://web.dev/baseline
18:52:15 <pkra> spectranaut_: ok, I'll make an issue on gecko before merging.
18:52:46 <pkra> jcraig: I don't want to give them a busy bug.
18:53:02 <pkra> ... add a note on the discussion if possible.
18:53:49 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
18:53:53 <Francis_Storr> present+
18:53:53 <sarah> present+
18:54:13 <pkra> zakim, end meeting
18:54:13 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been filippo-zorzi, smockle, ray-schwartz, katez, pkra, melsumner, alisonmaher, siri, StefanS, Francis_Storr, sarah
18:54:16 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
18:54:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/14-aria-minutes.html Zakim
18:54:25 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, pkra; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:54:25 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
19:08:34 <bkardell_> bkardell_ has joined #aria
20:11:23 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
21:09:10 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria