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15:00:07 <niklasl> present+
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15:01:42 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF Star WG Semantics TF: 2024-11-08 agenda -- https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d0cd306-0be8-4267-865a-6272cc8d9da4/20241108T100000/
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15:02:36 <AndyS> present+
15:02:38 <TallTed> Zakim, bye
15:02:38 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been TallTed, william_vw, enrico, tl, doerthe, gkellogg, Souri, pfps, AndyS, james, niklasl, gtw, Dominik_T, ora, olaf, pchampin,
15:02:38 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
15:02:40 <TallTed> RRSAgent, bye
15:02:40 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
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15:03:02 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/11/08-rdf-star-irc
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15:03:25 <Souri> present+
15:03:34 <doerthe> present+
15:03:34 <TallTed> present+ TallTed, niklasl, AndyS, pfps
15:03:36 <gkellogg> present+
15:03:42 <TallTed> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d0cd306-0be8-4267-865a-6272cc8d9da4/20241108T100000/
15:03:43 <agendabot> clear agenda
15:03:43 <agendabot> agenda+ Discussing and refining the details of the  -> RDF-star alternative baseline https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/Extending-the-baseline-with-%22asserted%22-stuff  document, in preparation of the decision by the WG next week.
15:03:49 <tl> present+
15:03:56 <AndyS> present+https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22alternative-baseline%22
15:04:02 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22alternative-baseline%22
15:04:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/08-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:04:05 <AndyS> present+
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15:04:13 <enrico> present+
15:04:14 <TallTed> meeting: RDF Star WG Semantics TF
15:04:19 <pfps> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22alternative-baseline%22
15:04:20 <enrico> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22alternative-baseline%22
15:04:31 <pfps> present+
15:05:04 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/11/07-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:05:04 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/11/14-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:05:17 <TallTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:05:17 <Zakim> Present: Souri, doerthe, TallTed, niklasl, AndyS, pfps, gkellogg, tl, https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22alternative-baseline%22, enrico
15:05:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see enrico, doerthe, Souri, Zakim, RRSAgent, william_vw, tl, gkellogg, niklasl, AndyS, TallTed, pfps, driib5, gb, ktk, csarven, gtw, agendabot, Tpt, rhiaro, pchampin
15:05:32 <TallTed> present- https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22alternative-baseline%22
15:05:59 <TallTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:05:59 <Zakim> Present: Souri, doerthe, TallTed, niklasl, AndyS, pfps, gkellogg, tl, enrico
15:06:01 <Zakim> On IRC I see enrico, doerthe, Souri, Zakim, RRSAgent, william_vw, tl, gkellogg, niklasl, AndyS, TallTed, pfps, driib5, gb, ktk, csarven, gtw, agendabot, Tpt, rhiaro, pchampin
15:06:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/08-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:07:30 <TallTed> chair: enrico
15:08:34 <AndyS> https://w3c.github.io/rdf-concepts/spec/#h-note-5 -- the SHOULD text in RDF Concepts
15:09:19 <tl> q+
15:10:59 <TallTed> i/previous meeting/topic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22alternative-baseline%22
15:11:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/08-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:11:14 <doerthe> I would make rdf:TripleTerm instead of rdf:tripleTerm, but that is it :)
15:14:04 <doerthe> q+
15:16:33 <Souri> q+
15:18:27 <tl> q-
15:18:30 <tl> q+
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15:19:01 <niklasl> <<( :s :p :o )>> owl:sameAs <<( :s :p :o )>> .
15:19:31 <niklasl> owl:sameAs a rdf:reificationProperty, rdf:InverseReificationProperty .
15:19:35 <niklasl> <<( :s :p :o )>> a rdf:Reifier .
15:19:54 <AndyS> _:r rdf:reifiies <<( :s :p :o )>> ; rdfs:label "Reifier?" .
15:20:01 <AndyS> s/ii/i/
15:20:34 <enrico> present+
15:21:05 <AndyS> <<( :s :p :o )>> rdf:isReifiiedBy _:r  ; rdfs:label "What is this?" .
15:21:53 <AndyS> present-https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22alternative-baseline%22
15:24:43 <Souri> I find having triple-term as subject confusing. For example, << :s :p :o >> :p1 "hello world" => "hello world" is a reifier. How critical is it to allow triple-term in subject position (instead of restricting it to object position only)?
15:25:33 <enrico> q?
15:25:43 <enrico> ack doerthe
15:25:48 <enrico> ack souri
15:26:42 <enrico> q+
15:28:34 <pfps> q+
15:29:43 <enrico> q-
15:29:47 <enrico> ack tl
15:31:04 <doerthe> I won't answer directly because I respect the queue, but I really like the subject position but I simply don't see that adavantage
15:31:22 <doerthe> I will queue :)
15:31:25 <doerthe> q+
15:31:45 <AndyS> q?
15:31:53 <enrico> ack pfps
15:31:56 <AndyS> q+
15:31:57 <pfps> q-
15:33:06 <niklasl> q+
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15:33:13 <enrico8> present+
15:33:17 <enrico8> q?
15:33:26 <enrico8> ack doerthe
15:33:40 <AndyS> ack niklasl
15:34:12 <enrico8> q+
15:34:24 <AndyS> q-
15:35:27 <doerthe> what if I want to simply put a label on my triple term?
15:36:45 <gkellogg> q+
15:37:45 <niklasl> Want or need? (I can actually sort of see that nicety in a very specific application, but I imagine it requiring at least symmetric RDF; e.g. labels for literals?)
15:37:51 <enrico8> ack enrico
15:38:31 <Souri> We cannot have an inverse datatype property. Why can't we put a similar restriction on reification properties?
15:38:50 <enrico8> q+
15:39:01 <enrico8> ack gkellog
15:39:01 <niklasl> "2024"^^xsd:gYear rdfs:label "Twenty-twentyfour"@en .
15:39:02 <tl> q+
15:39:35 <AndyS> ack enrico
15:41:03 <AndyS> q+
15:41:05 <niklasl> q+
15:42:56 <AndyS> ack tl
15:43:18 <enrico8> ack andy
15:46:21 <enrico8> q+
15:46:52 <enrico8> ack niklasl
15:47:45 <tl> but uniprot would like to get away from RDF/XML, and use RDF-star to replace their reliance on RDF/XML's ID attribute
15:48:54 <AndyS> RDF/XML is used downstream of Uniprot in an ecosystem so it is very sticky.
15:49:50 <AndyS> ditto CIM FWIW (currently) although that has less of a need of reification.
15:50:46 <AndyS> q?
15:51:01 <doerthe> I would be very happy with the should
15:51:16 <Souri> q+ to say MUST makes sense
15:51:36 <niklasl> ... jsOn too ;)
15:51:56 <AndyS> Is this for RDF entailment, not simple entailment?
15:52:01 <AndyS> q+
15:52:13 <doerthe> but the XML-argument is of course something to think about... It is new
15:52:32 <pfps> q+
15:52:33 <doerthe> I would like to also hear Adrian
15:52:56 <enrico8> ack enrico
15:53:26 <AndyS> RDF/XML can be changed to have triple terms - it's not impossible.
15:53:28 <AndyS> q-
15:53:41 <enrico8> ack souri
15:53:41 <Zakim> Souri, you wanted to say MUST makes sense
15:53:49 <AndyS> RDF/XML can be changed to have triple terms in the subject position - it's not impossible.
15:53:58 <AndyS> q+
15:54:00 <enrico8> q+
15:54:11 <enrico8> ack pfps
15:54:33 <gkellogg> q+
15:54:40 <TallTed> q+ to say We can't break "the appendix of RDF history" in RDF 1.2; that would require RDF 2.0.
15:55:13 <pfps> q+
15:55:28 <enrico8> ack andys
15:57:13 <pfps> q+ to say that RDF/XML cannot represent all of RDF even now
15:57:38 <enrico8> ack enrico
15:57:48 <doerthe> mmm, I would like to know more because I have not enough background on RDF-XML
15:58:58 <tl> q+ to say that the ID attribute in RDF/XML supports RDF standard reification very well. If we design the unstar mapping as a mapping t RDF standard reification (which is the way we'll most ptobably take, if we do it at all) , then there is a good bridge
16:00:02 <AndyS> FYI One way is to allow rdf:parseType="TripleTerm" on rdf:Description.
16:01:01 <niklasl> Interesting... But rdf:parseType is on the predicate element now though?
16:01:26 <doerthe> I remember that Souri also made an implementation argument for their systems in general?
16:02:07 <niklasl> q+
16:02:15 <gkellogg> ack me
16:02:15 <enrico8> ack gkellogg
16:02:24 <Souri> In RDFn, I was proposing the name (reifier) as the (optional) fourth item: :s :p :o | :r .
16:02:30 <AndyS> niklals - rdf:parseType is only in the object (i.e. on a predicate) today but what it does is create a (nested) RDF term.
16:03:01 <AndyS> and is not predicate specific.
16:03:16 <niklasl> Ah; true. That and a reverse are interesting...
16:03:19 <enrico8> ack tallted
16:03:19 <Zakim> TallTed, you wanted to say We can't break "the appendix of RDF history" in RDF 1.2; that would require RDF 2.0.
16:03:37 <enrico8> ack pfps
16:03:37 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to say that RDF/XML cannot represent all of RDF even now
16:03:49 <niklasl> E.g. predicates #123
16:03:50 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/pull/123 -> MERGED Pull Request 123 Tweak language and markup for clarity (replicated) (by hartig)
16:04:14 <niklasl> s/#123/local name 123/
16:04:26 <enrico8> ack tl
16:04:26 <Zakim> tl, you wanted to say that the ID attribute in RDF/XML supports RDF standard reification very well. If we design the unstar mapping as a mapping t RDF standard reification (which
16:04:29 <Zakim> ... is the way we'll most ptobably take, if we do it at all) , then there is a good bridge
16:04:56 <doerthe> maybe the json-ld argument bygkellogg is stronger?
16:05:31 <gkellogg> s/bygkellogg/by gkellogg/
16:06:01 <enrico8>                        ack niklasl
16:06:13 <enrico8> q+
16:06:29 <AndyS> I agree with doerthe - JSON-LD makes a stronger argument than RDF/XML (due to its growth on the web)
16:06:53 <enrico8> +1 on the JSON-LD argument
16:07:16 <doerthe> just to you tl: the whole json-ld and RDF-XML discussion could spare us from our discussion 8and we have strong opinions, so maybe more healthy for us :) )
16:08:11 <doerthe> I get that one :)
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16:09:52 <doerthe> and you, niklasl, actually brought me to agreement on the SHOULD
16:10:18 <AndyS> Can we agree to define semantics in the symmetric case?
16:11:07 <doerthe> mmm, but are we postponing the discussion by that AndyS, apart from that, yes
16:11:32 <tl> option one, which i voted on, was based on reification :->
16:11:53 <tl> s/voted on/voted for
16:11:54 <tl> q+
16:12:01 <AndyS> I hope it is a step forward for this group.
16:12:09 <niklasl> The potential power of rdf:reifies plus OWL to bridge different modelling granularity should not be overlooked.
16:12:11 <enrico8> ack enrico
16:12:19 <doerthe> OK, I support that
16:12:31 <AndyS> ack tl
16:13:37 <niklasl> AndyS, yes I hope that can work.
16:14:10 <gkellogg> q+
16:14:46 <enrico8> ack gkellog
16:15:01 <AndyS> If RDF/XML,JSON-LD are sufficient argument in the whole WG, it least then semantics is general. AKA an honest separation of concerns.
16:16:09 <niklasl> That (abstract syntax for concrete syntaxes, symmetric RDF for semantics) might clarity my (wobbly) "affordance/ergonomics" perspective.
16:16:49 <Souri> q+
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16:18:03 <AndyS> three places (1) semantics  (2) data mode (3) syntaxes
16:18:13 <AndyS> three places (1) semantics  (2) data model (3) syntaxes
16:18:30 <AndyS> s/three places (1) semantics  (2) data mode (3) syntaxes//
16:20:53 <gkellogg> Should be "Any triple whoes object ..." rather than "Every"
16:21:10 <TallTed> s/whoes/whose/
16:23:25 <doerthe> could we maybe also point out the problem with the syntaxes somewhere, maybe a small example why it is so difficult in JSON-LD and RDF-XML?
16:24:11 <Souri> Could you put the URL here?
16:26:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/08-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:26:33 <AndyS> q+
16:26:49 <AndyS> Souri -- https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22alternative-baseline%22
16:28:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/08-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:29:04 <TallTed> Zakim, bye
16:29:04 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Souri, doerthe, TallTed, niklasl, AndyS, pfps, gkellogg, tl,
16:29:04 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
16:29:06 <Zakim> ... https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22alternative-baseline%22, enrico
16:29:07 <TallTed> RRSAgent, bye
16:29:07 <RRSAgent> I see no action items