17:14:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:15:03 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/11/07-aria-irc
17:15:03 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:15:04 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
17:15:14 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:15:14 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:15:14 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b57854a-65cb-421e-b9e0-f9a8da31f160/20241107T130000/
17:15:14 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:15:14 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3CgUTHG
17:15:15 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/4hLw4E2
17:15:17 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
17:15:20 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:15:22 <agendabot> agenda+ Consensus needed: Publish a snapshot CR of Core-AAM
17:15:25 <agendabot> agenda+ -> HTML AAM: how to handle attributes and aria-* on button/selectedoption within a select https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2368
17:15:28 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Clarify tables, grids, treegrids https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2359
17:15:32 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Inconsistency in allowed uses of placeholder and aria-placeholder https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2347
17:15:34 <agendabot> agenda+ -> add mapping for html focusgroup attribute https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/565
17:15:37 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Stop automatically exposing details relation for figure -> figcaption https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/564
17:15:40 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Make aria-relevant and ariaRelevant reflect https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2326
17:33:56 <jamesn> agenda?
17:34:42 <jamesn> zakim, drop item 1
17:34:42 <Zakim> agendum 1, -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3CgUTHG, dropped
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18:01:34 <Adam_Page> scribe: Adam_Page
18:01:36 <Adam_Page> present+
18:01:42 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:01:42 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/4hLw4E2 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:01:46 <melsumner> present+
18:02:09 <melsumner> q+
18:02:23 <Adam_Page> jamesn: w3c/aria/#2369
18:02:28 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
18:02:31 <pkra> present+
18:02:35 <Adam_Page> ... add mapping table for customizable select
18:02:37 <Adam_Page> ... still in draft
18:02:39 <melsumner> q-
18:03:04 <Adam_Page> scottohara: a lot is done, there is still a todo to note how browsers may need correct for popup semantics
18:03:11 <Adam_Page> jamesn: would anyone like to review?
18:03:14 <filippo-zorzi> filippo-zorzi has joined #aria
18:03:21 <Adam_Page> ... or prepare for review, once it’s ready
18:03:24 <Adam_Page> Rahim: me
18:03:32 <Adam_Page> aaronlev: me too
18:03:35 <filippo-zorzi> present+
18:03:52 <alisonmaher> alisonmaher has joined #aria
18:03:55 <alisonmaher> present+
18:03:59 <Adam_Page> jamesn: and will put James Teh on to review as well
18:04:01 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:04:01 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:04:30 <Adam_Page> jamesn: we’ll skip for this week
18:04:31 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:04:31 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, Adam_Page
18:04:35 <Adam_Page> zakim, close item 3
18:04:35 <Zakim> agendum 3, -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y, closed
18:04:36 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:04:36 <Zakim> 4. -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates [from agendabot]
18:04:38 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:04:38 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:04:47 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria
18:04:49 <Adam_Page> jamesn: we have one scheduled for Nov 21
18:04:55 <CurtBellew> present+
18:04:58 <scott> scott has joined #aria
18:05:03 <Adam_Page> ... on Dashboard Boundaries, 2-3pm Pacific Time
18:05:15 <scott> present+
18:05:26 <Adam_Page> ... any other deep dive topic proposals?
18:05:41 <giacomo-petri> present+
18:05:50 <Adam_Page> melsumner: yes, BGaraventa would like to talk about whitespace
18:06:02 <Adam_Page> jamesn: maybe a week between Thanksgiving and Christmas?
18:06:48 <Adam_Page> s/BGaraventa/BGaraventa and I/
18:07:17 <Adam_Page> melsumner: let’s try for Dec 5
18:07:40 <Adam_Page> jamesn: this relates to accname/#95
18:07:58 <jamesn> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/120
18:08:08 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:08:08 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Consensus needed: Publish a snapshot CR of Core-AAM -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:08:27 <Adam_Page> jamesn: need consensus to publish snapshot recommendation for core-aam
18:08:31 <Adam_Page> ... any objections?
18:08:39 <pkra> +1
18:08:40 <Adam_Page> ... otherwise these minutes can represent consensus
18:09:03 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
18:09:34 <Adam_Page> Rahim: jcraig is not here and may have an objection
18:10:22 <Adam_Page> jamesn: I could send out a formal email call for consensus
18:10:22 <Adam_Page> dmontalvo: yes, that’s a good suggestion
18:10:31 <Adam_Page> jamesn: I’ll do a 48-hour one for this
18:10:45 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:10:45 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> HTML AAM: how to handle attributes and aria-* on button/selectedoption within a select https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2368 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:11:09 <Adam_Page> jamesn: scott: would you like to explain?
18:11:19 <Adam_Page> scott: the gist is that with the new markup pattern for HTML customizable select
18:11:47 <Adam_Page> ... one would use a combination of CSS but also a button is being proposed as a child of the select
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18:12:04 <Adam_Page> ... which would enclose <selectedoption>, which may be renamed to <selectedcontent>
18:12:22 <Adam_Page> ...to display the selected option in the collapsed state
18:12:25 <Adam_Page> ... what, if anything, should be allowed on these buttons from an ARIA point of view
18:12:34 <Adam_Page> ... because the button is meant to represent the chosen option
18:12:50 <Adam_Page> ... so things that would be allowed for a button, like aria-expanded, don’t make sense in this context
18:13:01 <Adam_Page> ... so hoping to get consensus from the group
18:13:10 <Adam_Page> ... my current opinion is that a lot of these attributes should be ignored
18:13:15 <jamesn> q?
18:13:25 <Adam_Page> ... and even that some of them may need to be bubbled up to the parent <select>
18:13:45 <Adam_Page> ... would like to hear thoughts from others
18:13:59 <Adam_Page> ... it’s almost meant to just be a visual styling hook than an actual semantic button
18:14:05 <Adam_Page> q+
18:14:40 <Adam_Page> jamesn: are there running examples?
18:14:45 <Adam_Page> aaronlev: you can run in Chrome or Edge
18:15:18 <scott> https://codepen.io/scottohara/pen/VwJoyoy - view in chrome canary
18:15:35 <Adam_Page> ... <options> don‘t need to be plain text anymore, they can contain images, etc.
18:15:50 <Adam_Page> ... so putting <selectedoption> also allows for that
18:16:29 <Rahim> present+
18:16:40 <smockle> present+
18:16:57 <Adam_Page> ... should we just bubble up ARIA properties from the <button> to the parent <select>, like `aria-disabled`
18:17:02 <jamesn> qv?
18:17:17 <melsumner> if it's just for styling it's not semantic, so don't allow aria attributes IMO
18:17:19 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: weird to put aria-disabled on the button rather than the select
18:17:31 <melsumner> you'd put the disabled attribute on the select element anyway
18:18:05 <jamesn> ack Adam_Page
18:18:35 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
18:19:19 <keithamus> q+
18:20:22 <Adam_Page> scott: putting the <button> inside the <select> is almost exposing a shadow DOM approach, but by reusing <button> we get some other stuff for free, like Windows HCM mode
18:20:47 <Adam_Page> ... these are 2 new elements being allowed inside a select to style the default, collapsed view of an element that triggers a popup
18:21:32 <Adam_Page> ... our pathways are 1) we ignore them, because they are styling hooks, or 2) we try to respect specific attributes and reconcile them with competing ones on the <select>
18:22:13 <smockle> q+
18:22:35 <Adam_Page> ... approach #1 is essentially “this <button> is not like the one you’re used to”, don’t expect it to act the same
18:22:59 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: there *could* be a very short list of ARIA properties that could be useful here, but they are hard to imagine
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18:23:20 <Adam_Page> ... ignoring them all feels like the right place to start
18:23:31 <jamesn> ack keithamus
18:23:44 <Adam_Page> scott: aria-valuetext could maybe make sense there, if we agreed that it is a good idea — but I’m not proposing that, to be clear
18:23:53 <aaronlev> q+
18:24:08 <Adam_Page> keithamus: a couple other things to consider: if the <select> sees a <button>, the implementation will delegate focus *to* the button
18:24:44 <Adam_Page> ... there are more than just a11y ramifications with this being a button, there are also stylistic implications
18:24:47 <Adam_Page> ... still a very open conversation
18:24:59 <Adam_Page> ... on whether this should be a new button
18:25:17 <Adam_Page> s/a new button/reuse the <button> element/
18:25:58 <Adam_Page> scott: if it’s not a button, we’d still need to consider what ARIA attributes would be permitted
18:26:34 <Adam_Page> ... I think delegating the important behaviors from select to button is a bad idea
18:26:52 <Adam_Page> keithamus: in older browsers, the <button> would be parsed away
18:26:54 <jamesn> ack smockle
18:27:21 <Adam_Page> smockle: this proposal tried to align with author expectations
18:27:30 <siri> siri has joined #aria
18:27:30 <Adam_Page> ... follows intuition
18:27:36 <siri> present+
18:27:37 <Adam_Page> ... of “things that are invalid drop”
18:27:40 <jamesn> ack aaronlev
18:27:51 <Adam_Page> aaronlev: implementation notes: we have built this in Blink
18:28:05 <Adam_Page> ... our assumption is that AT will want to see the <select> structured in the usual way
18:28:23 <Adam_Page> ... we want the tree structure to be this select object, with children
18:28:39 <Adam_Page> ... so if there is a special button, we don’t expose that
18:28:52 <Adam_Page> ... but if there is a focus event, we map it back to the select
18:29:06 <Adam_Page> ... or forward it to a special custom button, if applicable
18:29:19 <Adam_Page> ... and we reflect other non-ARIA properties from the button to the select
18:29:38 <Adam_Page> ... but the `for` attribute, for example, is a complicated case
18:29:54 <Adam_Page> ... for browser simplicity, it would be nice to ignore ARIA properties, if we don’t think it matters to authors
18:30:02 <jamesn> q?
18:30:24 <Adam_Page> q+
18:30:28 <melsumner> +1 for "button is just really a styling hook"
18:30:54 <melsumner> (in this context)
18:30:56 <Adam_Page> q-
18:31:09 <smockle> q+
18:32:04 <jamesn> ack smockle
18:32:22 <Adam_Page> scott: my initial plan will be to spec this as ARIA attributes should be ignored
18:32:22 <Adam_Page> smockle: *where* will we spec this?
18:32:45 <Adam_Page> scott: in the ARIA spec, probably... nowhere — but in HTML-AAM and ARIA in HTML, we could clarify it there
18:32:54 <Adam_Page> jamesn: that it _wouldn’t_ map to button, right?
18:32:57 <Adam_Page> scott: right
18:33:12 <Adam_Page> ... this will be called out specifically as a new mapping table for button
18:33:40 <Adam_Page> ... “as long as it’s just 1 item in the a11y tree, we’re good”
18:33:42 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:33:42 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- -> Clarify tables, grids, treegrids https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2359 -- taken up [from agendabot]
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18:34:22 <Adam_Page> melsumner: I work on a design system in a JS framework
18:34:22 <Adam_Page> ... been protective of tables, to not make too complicated
18:34:33 <Adam_Page> ... but my designers are testing the boundaries
18:34:53 <Adam_Page> ... and looked at the spec and found some aspects that I think are no longer useful
18:34:56 <sarah> sarah has joined #aria
18:35:04 <sarah> present+
18:35:14 <Adam_Page> ... and sometimes at odds with assistive tech behavior
18:35:27 <Adam_Page> ... I think these definitions don’t really work
18:35:34 <Adam_Page> ... especially treegrid doesn’t seem to work IRL
18:35:47 <jamesn> ioq?
18:35:47 <jamesn> q?
18:35:59 <jamesn> s/ioq?//
18:36:45 <scott> scott has joined #aria
18:36:58 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: what are the things that you thought are allowed in table, but actually are not?
18:37:02 <jamesn> q+
18:37:03 <scott> q+
18:37:12 <Adam_Page> melsumner: if the tabular container maintains a selection state, what does “selection state” mean?
18:37:29 <Adam_Page> ... in Excel, you can select a row, and that would match that
18:37:49 <Adam_Page> ... but this wording suggests that table columns cannot be resizable or sortable
18:38:22 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: maybe that specific wording needs to be revisited
18:38:22 <Adam_Page> ... we definitely have a sortable table example in the APG
18:38:26 <Adam_Page> ... and we’ve never believed you shouldn’t be able to sort a table
18:38:33 <jamesn> ack me
18:38:42 <Adam_Page> jamesn: I agree that this definition of table is bad
18:39:00 <Adam_Page> ... we need to fix it to more clearly distinguish table from grid
18:39:09 <Adam_Page> ... move back to something simpler
18:39:20 <Adam_Page> ... maybe grids are keyboard operable with arrow keys, otherwise it’s a table
18:39:52 <Adam_Page> ... it should be fine for other controls to manipulate the contents of the table
18:40:11 <siri> q+
18:40:19 <jamesn> ack scott
18:40:33 <Adam_Page> scott: I think table definition is problematic and should be simplified
18:41:07 <Adam_Page> ... I would reject any suggestion that if you want to sort, resize, etc. that you need to use a grid — those things should still be permitted on a table
18:41:11 <jamesn> ack siri
18:41:35 <Adam_Page> siri: thank you for that clarification
18:42:22 <Adam_Page> jamesn: you may want to use grid, for example if you have thousands of rows in the table
18:42:22 <Adam_Page> siri: okay, so it depends on navigation
18:42:45 <Adam_Page> melsumner: how much time do you expect the user to work inside this thing? Is it a lot of content? That is an important differentiator
18:42:53 <scott> q+
18:43:39 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: I think we should spec it more like how jamesn described it, around keyboard operability
18:43:42 <melsumner> Sarah Higley wrote about this: https://sarahmhigley.com/writing/grids-part1/
18:43:54 <jamesn> ack scott
18:44:21 <Adam_Page> scott: some of these things would be good notes to add, outside the normative spec language
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18:44:40 <Adam_Page> ... some of the things we might want to recommend against might still be perfectly valid tables in HTML
18:44:51 <Adam_Page> ... so need to make sure we don’t prohibit those
18:45:06 <Adam_Page> jamesn: but we could still point out that they would be _not optimal_
18:45:24 <jamesn> agenda?
18:45:31 <Adam_Page> scott: yes, we just need to be careful that we don’t say anything to suggest that a valid HTML table would be somehow invalid
18:45:34 <giacomo-petri> q+
18:45:39 <Adam_Page> ... we can’t tell them it needs to be a grid
18:46:01 <jamesn> ack giacomo-petri
18:46:01 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: yes, and we can also say _if_ you choose to make a grid, then it needs keyboard operability, etc.
18:46:06 <Adam_Page> giacomo-petri: what about the opposite example?
18:46:22 <Adam_Page> ... take a very static table with no interaction
18:46:22 <Adam_Page> ... is that fine as a `grid`?
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18:46:23 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: yes
18:47:11 <Adam_Page> jamesn: are we resolved? melsumner, would you like to create a PR?
18:47:19 <Adam_Page> melsumner: yes, I’ll do that
18:47:23 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:47:23 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- -> Inconsistency in allowed uses of placeholder and aria-placeholder https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2347 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:47:47 <Adam_Page> scott: I’m assigned to this
18:47:58 <Adam_Page> jamesn: I’ll remove the agenda label
18:48:04 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:48:04 <Zakim> agendum 8 was just opened, Adam_Page
18:48:22 <Adam_Page> zakim, close item 7
18:48:22 <Zakim> agendum 7, -> Clarify tables, grids, treegrids https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2359, closed
18:48:22 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:48:25 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:48:25 <Zakim> 8. -> Inconsistency in allowed uses of placeholder and aria-placeholder https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2347 [from agendabot]
18:48:25 <Zakim> agendum 8 was just opened, Adam_Page
18:48:28 <Adam_Page> zakim, close this item
18:48:28 <Zakim> agendum 8 closed
18:48:29 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:48:29 <Zakim> 9. -> add mapping for html focusgroup attribute https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/565 [from agendabot]
18:48:31 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:48:31 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- -> add mapping for html focusgroup attribute https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/565 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:49:03 <Adam_Page> scott: we had a focusgroup deep dive a while ago
18:49:20 <Adam_Page> aaronlev: focusgoup creates an up/down or left/right experience
18:49:56 <Adam_Page> ... we could have AT convey the directionality
18:50:02 <Adam_Page> s/focusgoup/focusgroup/
18:50:35 <jamesn> q+
18:50:41 <scott> q+
18:51:01 <Adam_Page> q+
18:51:26 <Adam_Page> aaronlev: using this with links is weird because users don’t have conventional expectation for arrow key behavior
18:52:02 <jamesn> ack me
18:52:05 <Rahim> q+
18:52:29 <Adam_Page> jamesn: why can’t we allow it on links, and then the AT can convey that arrow keys should work
18:52:35 <Adam_Page> aaronlev: that’s the gist of this issue
18:53:28 <Adam_Page> jamesn: this would allow focusgroup on breadcrumbs for example, then it could be a single tabstop
18:53:42 <sarah> q+
18:53:46 <jamesn> ack scott
18:53:57 <Adam_Page> scott: if focusgroup is going to be a global attribute, which it seems like it will need to be
18:54:08 <Adam_Page> ... we can’t say it can only be used on composite widget roles
18:54:18 <jamesn> agenda?
18:54:43 <Adam_Page> ... so if it is global, then we do need to decide what kind of cues can we give to AT
18:54:50 <Adam_Page> ... “this won’t work like other links on the page”, etc.
18:55:08 <Adam_Page> ... in our focusgroup deep dive, we talked about how there is no visual affordance for this
18:55:42 <jamesn> q+
18:55:49 <Rahim> q-
18:55:52 <Adam_Page> ... there will be UX problems for a lack of a visual affordance
18:56:03 <jamesn> ack Adam_Page
18:56:06 <melsumner> TBH Scott, "I don't know how to use the internet anymore" is sorta how I feel a lot of the time these days, lol
18:56:10 <jamesn> q-
18:56:17 <jamesn> q+ aaronlev
18:56:59 <jamesn> ack sarah
18:57:18 <Adam_Page> sarah: we don’t have any real mapping for this
18:57:28 <Adam_Page> ... so would be curious how SRs with different modes would handle this
18:57:37 <Adam_Page> ... right now it depends on role
18:57:45 <Adam_Page> ... I also have a horror story
18:58:22 <Adam_Page> ... I know a team who wrote an entire JS library to manage arrow key operability to move between static pieces of content
18:58:22 <Adam_Page> ... enough people thought this that they decided a library would be justifiede
18:58:28 <Adam_Page> ... but we also have a legit use cases
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18:58:42 <jamesn> ack aaronlev
18:58:51 <Adam_Page> ... it’s worth considering that some people might want to make it arrow key between static <div>s of text
18:58:52 <jamesn> zakim, close the queue
18:58:52 <Zakim> ok, jamesn, the speaker queue is closed
18:58:59 <Adam_Page> aaronlev: should work for the most obvious cases at first
18:59:08 <Adam_Page> ... and then SRs can begin to support those easy cases
18:59:39 <sarah> q+
18:59:50 <Adam_Page> ... we could use the minimum role so that when someone uses focusgroup or focusitem, then it would get at least something minimal to the AT to convey
18:59:56 <Adam_Page> ... and then aria-orientation could be useful
19:00:03 <Adam_Page> ... although we’d need to add a 2D orientation
19:00:28 <Adam_Page> jamesn: someone working on this needs to come up with a proposal
19:00:47 <Adam_Page> zakim, end meeting
19:00:47 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pkra, sarah, smockle, filippo-zorzi, Rahim, spectranaut_, Adam_Page, jocelyntran, Daniel, melsumner, StefanS, alisonmaher, CurtBellew,
19:00:49 <Zakim> ... scott, giacomo-petri, siri
19:00:49 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
19:00:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/07-aria-minutes.html Zakim
19:00:57 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Adam_Page; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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