13:57:27 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
13:57:31 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/11/06-matf-irc
13:57:31 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:57:32 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
13:57:40 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF 6 November 2024
13:57:40 <Zakim> got it, JJ
13:57:43 <JJ> Meeting: MATF 6 November 2024
13:57:45 <JJ> present+
13:57:56 <JJ> regrets+ JeroenHulscher
13:57:58 <JJ> regrets+ KarlaRubiano
13:58:03 <JJ> regrets+ MickKeane
13:58:33 <JJ> agenda+ Guidance naming
13:58:37 <JJ> agenda+ 4.1.3 Status Messages
13:58:43 <JJ> agenda+ 1.2.3 Audio Description or Media Alternative (Prerecorded)
13:58:47 <JJ> agenda+ 1.2.4 Captions (Live)
13:58:52 <JJ> agenda+ 1.3.3 - Sensory Characteristics
13:58:57 <JJ> agenda+ Definitions
14:00:34 <quintinb> quintinb has joined #MATF
14:00:54 <Joe_Humbert> present+
14:01:34 <Carolina> Carolina has joined #MATF
14:01:48 <Carolina> present+
14:03:52 <quintinb> present+
14:04:29 <julianmka> julianmka has joined #MATF
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14:04:50 <julianmka> present+
14:04:57 <AlainVagner> present+
14:05:40 <JJ> Jon Gibbins introducing himself, he was previously involved in WCAG guidance, actively working in consultancy and training for Android and iOS
14:06:09 <GleidsonRamos> GleidsonRamos has joined #matf
14:06:41 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
14:06:54 <JJ> Scribe: quintinb
14:06:58 <Jamie> present+
14:07:36 <quintinb> JJ walking us through the agenda:
14:07:36 <quintinb>     Guidance naming
14:07:36 <quintinb>     4.1.3 Status Messages
14:07:36 <quintinb>     1.2.3 Audio Description or Media Alternative (Prerecorded)
14:07:37 <quintinb>     1.2.4 Captions (Live)
14:07:37 <quintinb>     1.3.3 - Sensory Characteristics
14:07:37 <quintinb>     Definitions
14:08:23 <dotjay> dotjay has joined #matf
14:08:39 <quintinb> JJ we'll now be going back to some small variations - the idea is that we finish these done in terms of guidance so we can get to the other larger ones.
14:09:46 <quintinb> No other agenda topics to be discussed before starting on planned agenda
14:10:08 <dotjay> present+ [Jon Gibbins]
14:10:38 <quintinb> agenda?
14:10:41 <JJ> Move to next agenda item
14:10:41 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Guidance naming -- taken up [from JJ]
14:10:57 <quintinb> thanks :)
14:11:37 <julianmka> julianmka has joined #MATF
14:11:43 <julianmka> present+
14:12:30 <quintinb> JJ Name is not very consitant, suggesting Guidance on Applying WCAG 2.2 to Mobile (WCAG2Mobile) and Shortname: wcag2mobile-22
14:12:36 <Jamie> q+
14:12:50 <JJ> Link to guidance naming: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/76
14:12:54 <JJ> ack Jamie
14:13:16 <quintinb> Jamie So this isn't a continuation of the prior draft note?
14:13:24 <quintinb> JJ no
14:13:56 <Joe_Humbert> Q+
14:14:20 <quintinb> JJ will remove references to 2.0
14:14:30 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
14:14:32 <quintinb> JJwe should point to latest doc
14:14:49 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert Is there a way to let people know what's outdated?
14:15:14 <quintinb> JJ there is a repo (Mobile-A11y-TF-Note)
14:15:35 <JJ> ACTION: Update W3C Mobile Accessibility Page
14:15:54 <JJ> ACTION: Check if we can update published (outdated) guidance with link to new guidance
14:16:48 <JJ> Move to next agenda item
14:16:48 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 4.1.3 Status Messages -- taken up [from JJ]
14:18:19 <quintinb> JJ mentioning that use of the term "markup" is problematic for mobile
14:19:01 <Joe_Humbert> q+
14:19:07 <quintinb> JJ reading through comments
14:19:59 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
14:20:39 <julianmka> q+
14:20:51 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert for the note about toast/snackbar - this seems very specific and terms might change, subject to Google or other platforms
14:21:15 <quintinb> +1 - probably should call them "UI-based notifications"
14:21:29 <JJ> ack julianmka
14:21:31 <Joe_Humbert> good suggestion quintinb
14:21:54 <dotjay> Joe has a good point. It’s probably better to use WAI Aria APG design pattern terminology – although totally acknowledge that these don’t all map neatly to native mobile
14:22:18 <quintinb> julianmka I think that we need to talk about iOS - we should describe the general behaviour, the problem is that they're always at the bottom, self-dismissing, etc
14:22:26 <quintinb> +1 julianmka - magnifier magnifier magnifier
14:23:11 <quintinb> Yeah we should mention or link to "time to take action" - although that is Android only
14:23:20 <JJ> q?
14:23:37 <dotjay> I use “snackbars” and “in-app notifications” interchangably
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14:23:54 <quintinb> JJ I noticed that when going through WCAG3 I found it interesting that when things are too generic, it's difficult to follow
14:24:43 <Joe_Humbert> +1 to generic term , but give current examples somewhere
14:24:43 <quintinb> normative vs informative?
14:26:00 <quintinb> JJ we are trying to focus on normative for now
14:26:43 <quintinb> JJ we don't want to end up with too many notes distracting and balance is key
14:26:52 <JJ> q+ dotjay
14:26:55 <JJ> ack dotjay
14:27:47 <quintinb> dotjayit's a good idea to be generic in terms of UI patterns. Glossaries can be helpful in this context. Probably smart idea to specify a group of standard phrases to describe things in a cross platform manner.
14:28:39 <Jamie> q+
14:29:11 <JJ> ack Jamie
14:29:16 <Joe_Humbert> q+
14:29:17 <quintinb> JJ can we delete the first sentence of NOTE 1, since mobile is not markup
14:29:35 <quintinb> Jamie can we use "since it's not implemented using m/u..."
14:30:33 <Joe_Humbert> the shorter, the better
14:31:23 <quintinb> +1 Joe_Humbert - probably should remove references to markup - regardless of presentation + structure, it should work as such...
14:31:49 <quintinb> or we could just publish a new book on 4.1.3 Note 1...
14:32:00 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
14:32:49 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert should we consider other elements such as PDF's in this context?
14:33:13 <quintinb> JJ we should focus on native right now
14:33:42 <quintinb> JJ PDF would use WCAG2PDF and web WCAG2Web etc
14:35:00 <quintinb> q+\
14:35:10 <JJ> ack \
14:35:14 <JJ> q+ quintinb
14:35:15 <JJ> ack quintinb
14:35:23 <quintinb> Could we not just remove the reference to markup languages for mobile?
14:35:26 <dotjay> quintinb: +1
14:35:48 <dotjay> I do feel it’s important to be clear around use of web terminology. Indeed, I know accessibillity consultants that use references to web technology like markup languages to be the reason that an SC should not be applied.
14:36:44 <dotjay> While this guidance likely needs to reflect WCAG, there are SCs that need to be specifically interpreted for mobile.
14:36:45 <quintinb> JJ the mobile guidance would be more compact, so maybe we can remove the reference, but we need to be careful as to why WCAG2ICT didn't remove the guidance
14:37:01 <julianmka> +1 dotjay
14:37:21 <dotjay> We should be able to deviate from guidance that’s been designed to apply to “software” in general
14:38:02 <Joe_Humbert> q+
14:38:36 <Jamie> A glossary term or something somewhere about "markup languages" could be helpful for non-technical readers
14:38:45 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
14:39:30 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert maybe there needs to be a higher level statement about removing markup languages with a set of reasons why - there may be a greater pattern here
14:39:41 <quintinb> q+
14:39:48 <JJ> ack quintinb
14:41:03 <Joe_Humbert> quintinb has valid points about consumers of this Group Note
14:41:14 <quintinb> Comment: It would be nice to reach devs, but they are not the primary audience for this type of documentation
14:41:53 <JJ> q?
14:42:20 <JJ> ACTION: Proposetext for 4.1.3 and shortened note on Github
14:42:51 <JJ> Move to next agenda item
14:42:51 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 1.2.3 Audio Description or Media Alternative (Prerecorded) -- taken up [from JJ]
14:43:28 <quintinb> Quintin's hot take: I love this
14:43:56 <quintinb> 1.2.3 is already voted on
14:44:19 <JJ> Move to next agenda item
14:44:19 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- 1.2.4 Captions (Live) -- taken up [from JJ]
14:44:31 <quintinb> 1.2.4 is already voted on
14:44:33 <JJ> Move to next agenda item
14:44:33 <Zakim> agendum 4 was just opened, JJ
14:44:40 <JJ> Move to next agenda item
14:44:40 <Zakim> agendum 4 was just opened, JJ
14:45:03 <JJ> Move to next agenda item
14:45:03 <Zakim> agendum 4 was just opened, JJ
14:45:26 <quintinb> Zakim is fault tolerant regarding accidentally moving forward at least
14:45:43 <julianmka> julianmka has joined #MATF
14:45:55 <quintinb> I think this is one of the best and clear SC's ever
14:46:04 <julianmka> p+
14:46:12 <julianmka> present+
14:47:15 <JJ> Move to next agenda item
14:47:15 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- 1.3.3 - Sensory Characteristics -- taken up [from JJ]
14:47:31 <quintinb> JJ we seem to just add haptics, unless nyone has anything to add
14:47:43 <julianmka> q+
14:47:49 <JJ> ack julianmka
14:48:39 <Joe_Humbert> q+
14:48:53 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
14:49:11 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert - wondering if we do a note for haptics
14:49:19 <Jamie> +1
14:49:45 <quintinb> Was thinking to add it to the list
14:49:54 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert we should probably add a note
14:50:08 <quintinb> e.g. You ca't just have a "shake to report" mechanism - there needs to be other mechanisms
14:50:39 <JJ> ACTION: Can we make additions to SC text, e.g. for 1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics: add "haptics" to the list
14:50:44 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert can we add it - it would be nice to know if we can change that list
14:50:49 <quintinb> Thanks Joe_Humbert
14:51:05 <dotjay> Just noting that the wording of “such as” implies that this is not a definitive list. A note may suffice.
14:51:15 <JJ> Vote: add "haptics" in Note of 1.3.3
14:51:23 <quintinb> +1
14:51:31 <Joe_Humbert> +1
14:51:31 <Jamie> +1
14:51:31 <julianmka> +1
14:51:31 <dotjay> +1
14:51:40 <GleidsonRamos> +1
14:51:58 <Jamie> also +1 to know if we can't modify... or what that needs to look like formally for W3C since we have several larger variation SC
14:52:10 <JJ> ACTION: Add "haptics" in Note of 1.3.3 (and potentially convert to text change at future stage)
14:52:42 <JJ> Move to next agenda item
14:52:42 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Definitions -- taken up [from JJ]
14:53:35 <Jamie> did we skip Captions and AD on purpose?
14:53:57 <quintinb> Jamie we already voted and closed them previously
14:54:10 <Jamie> ah right thx
14:55:21 <quintinb> JJ if you want to chair or participate in the views subgroup, let JJ know
14:55:59 <Jamie> can we go ahead and officially close "closed" issues in Github JJ?
14:59:36 <JJ> ACTION: Close SC's that have been voted on and included in draft guidance
15:00:13 <JJ> Slack link: https://matf.to/slack
15:00:31 <quintinb> julianmka 3.2.2 is ready to be voted on
15:00:34 <JJ> SC 3.3.2 is ready for voting: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3Avoting
15:00:41 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/45
15:00:56 <quintinb> Thanks JJ
15:01:26 <quintinb> Bye!
15:17:29 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
15:17:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/06-matf-minutes.html JJ
15:18:19 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
15:18:19 <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2024/11/06-matf-actions.rdf :
15:18:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Update W3C Mobile Accessibility Page [1]
15:18:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/11/06-matf-irc#T14-15-35
15:18:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Check if we can update published (outdated) guidance with link to new guidance [2]
15:18:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/11/06-matf-irc#T14-15-54
15:18:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Proposetext for 4.1.3 and shortened note on Github [3]
15:18:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/11/06-matf-irc#T14-42-20
15:18:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Can we make additions to SC text, e.g. for 1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics: add "haptics" to the list [4]
15:18:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/11/06-matf-irc#T14-50-39
15:18:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Add "haptics" in Note of 1.3.3 (and potentially convert to text change at future stage) [5]
15:18:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/11/06-matf-irc#T14-52-10
15:18:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Close SC's that have been voted on and included in draft guidance [6]
15:18:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/11/06-matf-irc#T14-59-36