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15:00:27 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/11/05-me-irc
15:00:32 <kaz> meeting: Media and Entertainment IG
15:00:52 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Chris_Needham, Hiroki_Endo, Hisauki_Ohmata, Ryo_Yasukawa
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15:02:32 <kaz> present+ Bernd_Czelhan
15:02:41 <kaz> present+ Niko_Faerber
15:02:48 <kaz> present+ Tatsuya_Igarashi
15:03:01 <kaz> present+ Francois_Daoust
15:03:16 <Igarashi> Igarashi has joined #me
15:03:21 <kaz> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-and-tv/2024Nov/0000.html
15:03:23 <Igarashi> present+
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15:03:35 <kaz> rsagent, make log public
15:03:36 <ohmata> present+
15:03:39 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:03:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/05-me-minutes.html kaz
15:03:44 <kaz> zakim, who is on the call?
15:03:44 <Zakim> Present: Kaz_Ashimura, Chris_Needham, Hiroki_Endo, Hisauki_Ohmata, Ryo_Yasukawa, Bernd_Czelhan, Niko_Faerber, Tatsuya_Igarashi, Francois_Daoust, Igarashi, ohmata
15:04:10 <Louay> present+ Louay_Bassbouss
15:04:12 <kaz> present+ Andreas_Tai
15:04:28 <kaz> present+ Ingar
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15:04:39 <kaz> present+ Piers_O'Hanlon
15:06:19 <kaz> topic: Next Generation Audio and Video Codecs
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15:06:33 <kaz> cpn: NGA proposal presented at TPAC
15:06:51 <kaz> ... figured out where to go next
15:07:09 <kaz> ... outcomes: gap analysis for audio, also consder video
15:07:15 <kaz> s/consder/consider/
15:07:36 <kaz> bc: not quite sure about the gap analysis
15:07:52 <kaz> cpn: let's figure out what it really means
15:08:01 <kaz> ... we start with use cases
15:08:20 <kaz> ... some of this in the document we prepared
15:08:28 <kaz> ... some of this already
15:08:36 <kaz> bc: need to learn from the industry
15:08:42 <kaz> ... what's done so far
15:08:47 <kaz> ... and what's still missing
15:09:01 <kaz> ... deliver something which is as good as experience
15:09:18 <kaz> ... what's trying to bring
15:09:36 <kaz> cpn: this is a conversation TV industry and media is doing
15:10:01 <kaz> bc: my understanding is maybe some service provider can address today's technology
15:10:16 <kaz> ... but I'm missing how should we work on that
15:10:26 <kaz> cpn: we could write a document to capture the points
15:10:34 <kaz> ... that kind of use cases and gap analysis
15:10:45 <kaz> ... that's what we can turn into a document
15:10:54 <kaz> ... more technical analysis too
15:11:14 <kaz> bc: meeting for that purpose?
15:11:16 <kaz> cpn: yeah
15:11:21 <kaz> ... we can do that
15:11:27 <kaz> ... can use this meeting also
15:11:41 <kaz> ... or can have special topic-focused meeting too
15:11:58 <kaz> ... if we have a lot to talk about, we can schedule another meeting
15:12:03 <kaz> ... can be flexible
15:12:07 <kaz> bc: sounds perfect
15:12:25 <kaz> ... we can already work on the document
15:12:38 <kaz> ... also dedicated meeting would be good
15:12:52 <kaz> cpn: sounds good to me
15:13:03 <kaz> ... perhaps separately from this meeting itself
15:13:12 <kaz> ... happy to talk separately
15:13:15 <kaz> bc: ok
15:13:20 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
15:13:24 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:13:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/05-me-minutes.html kaz
15:13:34 <kaz> cpn: not sure about video at the moment
15:14:01 <kaz> ... that is again would be interesting to hear somebody is interested
15:14:15 <kaz> ... a bit introduction to work
15:14:23 <kaz> ... could also cover that
15:14:35 <kaz> ... if you're designing APIs
15:14:43 <kaz> ... bigger problem with focusing on
15:15:04 <kaz> ... but I think moving up would really require special knowledge
15:15:10 <kaz> ... might be longer term
15:15:28 <kaz> ... was interesting a couple of people showed interest
15:15:48 <kaz> ... think some of the materials are already there
15:15:52 <kaz> bc: yeah
15:16:09 <kaz> ... some requirements there
15:16:36 <kaz> ... real deployment would be helpful
15:16:44 <kaz> cpn: yeah, industry support would be good
15:16:50 <kaz> ... any other thoughts?
15:16:57 <kaz> nf: one question
15:17:08 <kaz> ... gap analysis
15:17:16 <kaz> ... what are the two points?
15:17:33 <kaz> cpn: between the user needs we have and technical capability the Web has
15:17:41 <kaz> ... two ways to view this
15:17:48 <kaz> ... use case perspective first
15:18:01 <kaz> ... things supported by browsers today
15:18:07 <kaz> ... and missing something
15:18:19 <kaz> ... alternative is more codec-centric
15:18:33 <kaz> ... we have some particular technology
15:18:45 <kaz> ... can see some use case which drives the discussion
15:19:00 <kaz> ... think that's essentially what we need
15:19:03 <kaz> ... e.g., for web audio
15:19:15 <kaz> ... would communicate about that
15:19:22 <kaz> nf: ok
15:19:48 <kaz> cpn: we can follow up this separately on the industry side
15:19:53 <kaz> topic: Media WG update
15:19:59 <kaz> cpn: a few updates
15:20:13 <kaz> ... just agreed to publish the Audio Session API spec
15:20:28 <kaz> ... allows source-mixed media
15:20:34 <kaz> ... music and notification, etc.
15:20:43 <kaz> ... with some volume temporary
15:21:03 <kaz> ... then WebCodecs
15:21:12 <kaz> ... kind of video frame metadata
15:21:22 <kaz> ... camera effects, e.g., acground blur
15:21:34 <kaz> ... through video frame metadata
15:21:57 <kaz> s/video frame/VideoFrame/g
15:22:05 <kaz> ... this is a lot of development by RTC
15:22:27 <kaz> ... can see camera effects tied to content
15:22:42 <kaz> ... if those kind of use cases identify the gaps
15:22:50 <kaz> ... coming from RTC world
15:23:03 <kaz> ... then brief outcome around Text Tracks in MSE
15:23:22 <kaz> ...support of Timed Text carried in media container files
15:23:29 <kaz> ... organize a dedicated session
15:23:34 <kaz> s/...s/... s/
15:23:47 <kaz> ... my organization is interested
15:23:59 <kaz> ... any thoughts/questions?
15:24:04 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:24:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/05-me-minutes.html kaz
15:24:14 <kaz> topic: Multi-Device Timing
15:24:44 <kaz> cpn: long term topic
15:25:05 <kaz> ingar: did some work to generate interesting forum around timing
15:25:16 <kaz> ... starting at TPAC 2016
15:25:22 <kaz> @@@ minutes
15:26:01 <kaz> ingar: having put this into a standardization draft
15:26:07 <kaz> ... just a pending some interest
15:26:17 <kaz> ... ended up
15:26:30 <kaz> ... should I say something about the initiative itself?
15:26:34 <kaz> cpn: yeah
15:26:40 <kaz> ingar: high-level
15:26:57 <kaz> ... this IG is about Media
15:27:13 <kaz> ... great opportunity is the Web having information on timing
15:27:29 <kaz> ... any event handling, etc.
15:27:44 <kaz> ... this is sort of the thing for multi-media
15:27:53 <kaz> ... Web is a bit different
15:28:03 <kaz> ... doesn't have actual timing information
15:28:33 <kaz> ... the idea is making it generic to have timing model
15:28:44 <kaz> ... independent from any specific framework
15:28:52 <kaz> ... quite successful
15:29:08 <kaz> ... so many different cases there
15:29:15 <kaz> ... video and audio
15:29:27 <kaz> ... missing piece is not much
15:29:35 <kaz> ... what to be standardized?
15:29:43 <kaz> ... not much to standardize
15:30:12 <kaz> ... HTMLMediaElement was not made for synchronization
15:30:44 <kaz> ... possible command for that purpose
15:30:56 <kaz> ... time sync vector and try to get there
15:31:13 <kaz> ... really important use cases
15:31:22 <kaz> ... we can do multi device things
15:31:28 <kaz> ... timing is the important word
15:31:39 <kaz> ... opens up many opportunities
15:31:57 <kaz> ... entertainment media, sensor data, etc.
15:32:03 <kaz> ... would be interesting to many people
15:32:04 <cpn> q?
15:32:11 <kaz> q+
15:33:03 <kaz> ... discussing what HTMLMediaElement would do
15:33:17 <kaz> cpn: synchronizing things and timing object
15:33:39 <kaz> ... huge traction for Web browser vendors
15:33:59 <kaz> ingar: just one use case for that
15:34:15 <kaz> ... but three are thousands of use caeses there
15:34:20 <kaz> s/caeses/cases/
15:34:28 <kaz> ... you don't really bundle things
15:34:57 <kaz> ... would be more useful to have people to share the ideas
15:35:17 <kaz> cpn: a lot of stuff not purely timing-oriented
15:35:21 <kaz> ingar: right
15:35:37 <cpn> scribe+ cpn
15:36:06 <cpn> Kaz: I've been working with MEIG for a while, and also WoT group, multi-model group from 10 years ago
15:36:41 <cpn> ... Do we need to think about synchronisation just for web browsers, or maybe also non-browser entities like IoT sensors, surveillance cameras
15:36:50 <cpn> ... Could use exsting statechart mechanisms also?
15:37:42 <cpn> Ingar: It's not specific to the web, yes. Even though we named it "multi-device timing", we didnt' really look at the multi-device part, more the timing object
15:38:09 <cpn> ... Having a standard way to do the multi-device part could be a consideration. But the timing part opens up the use cases
15:38:47 <cpn> Kaz: During TPAC2024, Audio WG people were intersted in presice sync. Could create a document with use case
15:39:22 <cpn> Ingar: Sure, the findings back then, the limiting factor was the ability to locally control the media element. We got that down to around 7-10ms on reasonable devices
15:40:03 <cpn> ... For general sync of timing objects across web clients, was 1 or 2 ms. Good enough for a lot of applications, or maybe not for some specific audio apps
15:40:25 <cpn> Kaz: Technically, need some precise base clock
15:41:04 <cpn> Ingar: You need a clock, rely on the server you connect to. That's the way we did it, and sync based on network latency, you can get to 1-2 ms off.
15:41:45 <cpn> ... You shouldn't have to depend on anything, the important thing is availabiltiy of a sync signal, and see the clock as an app level object and not an infrstructure resource
15:41:55 <cpn> Kaz: So Timing Object is like a virtual clock?
15:42:16 <cpn> Ingar: It's like a logical clock, stopwith
15:42:23 <cpn> s/stopwith/stopwatch/
15:42:44 <kaz> q?
15:42:45 <kaz> q-
15:42:59 <kaz> topic: TPAC Breakout: Sync on the Web
15:43:07 <kaz> cpn: related breakout around syn on the Web
15:43:22 <kaz> ... ms-accurate synchronization
15:43:44 <kaz> ... APIs to synchronization
15:43:49 <kaz> s/to/for/
15:44:00 <kaz> ... some points made for digital twins as use cases
15:44:04 <kaz> ... cloud gaming as well
15:44:16 <kaz> ... discussion happen within the Web&Networks group
15:44:39 <kaz> ingar: overlap there
15:45:05 <kaz> ... as long as you have a timing object for event handling
15:45:33 <kaz> ... sometimes people monitor the latency
15:45:48 <kaz> ... can be very complicated but could simplify it
15:46:08 <kaz> cpn: a broad question
15:46:17 <kaz> ... is there something renewed interest?
15:46:36 <kaz> ... you have solutions working pretty well
15:46:43 <kaz> ... not so much to be done here
15:47:12 <kaz> ... it's ashamed to close the CG...
15:47:26 <kaz> ingar: got a report to sending the content accessible
15:47:26 <tidoust> q+
15:47:38 <kaz> cpn: all the archive can be accessed
15:47:51 <kaz> ingar: there is an opportunity there
15:48:00 <kaz> ... one framework or another
15:48:29 <kaz> ... one thing you could do is going back to the industry to find people interested
15:48:38 <kaz> ... many type of application domains there
15:48:47 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:48:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/05-me-minutes.html kaz
15:48:54 <kaz> q?
15:48:59 <kaz> cpn: with our communities here
15:49:05 <kaz> ... heard from Mr. Komatsu from NTT also
15:49:20 <kaz> ... how to do sync using Media over QUIC
15:49:40 <kaz> ... this "Sync on the Web" session was a reminder to let us think
15:49:48 <kaz> ... would let him know
15:49:59 <kaz> ingar: talking to industry from time to time
15:50:11 <kaz> ... one example is media stream
15:50:26 <kaz> ... rendering some content
15:50:37 <kaz> ... it seems such an easy thing
15:50:46 <kaz> ... but that's pretty hard for developers to do that
15:50:51 <kaz> ... different cases there
15:50:58 <kaz> ... it's really a showstopper
15:51:13 <kaz> ... for media industry business
15:51:28 <kaz> q?
15:51:35 <kaz> ack t
15:51:39 <kaz> fd: hi, Ingar
15:52:04 <kaz> ... Ian and Dom are handling the CG procedure
15:52:19 <kaz> ... checking the progress of CGs
15:52:37 <kaz> ... wanted to confirm that closing the CG itself would not loose the content
15:52:46 <kaz> ... nothing would be lost
15:53:07 <kaz> ... we can have a blog post when we revive the topics
15:53:30 <kaz> ... also wanted to note
15:53:45 <kaz> ... latency and timing measures
15:54:03 <kaz> ... orchestration of multi-devices
15:54:17 <kaz> q+
15:54:36 <kaz> cpn: potential improvement for media handling
15:55:21 <kaz> ... it doesn't say you need to respond for this level of accuracy
15:55:35 <kaz> ... ability for typical browser
15:55:50 <kaz> ... argument goes a quality of implementation issue
15:56:15 <kaz> ingar: even the sort of properties
15:56:22 <kaz> ... is that good enough?
15:56:43 <kaz> ... skipping is happening
15:56:52 <kaz> ... that is always a source of noise
15:57:04 <kaz> cpn: focusing on that level might be productive
15:57:23 <kaz> ... more sort of practical data we have
15:57:29 <kaz> ... in the accuracy
15:58:01 <kaz> ingar: just having a sort of test
15:58:13 <kaz> ... in some kind of video content
15:58:16 <kaz> ... might be useful
15:58:31 <kaz> ... appreciate to let me talk
15:58:53 <kaz> q+ Louay
15:59:01 <kaz> lb: regarding testing
15:59:12 <kaz> ... working for CTA WAVE testing
15:59:22 <kaz> ... video playback
15:59:36 <kaz> ... to check the current time is fine so far
16:00:10 <kaz> ... there is a feature for @@@
16:00:27 <kaz> ... you can select any applications to listen to music
16:00:37 <kaz> ... what you ned is just connecting apps
16:00:49 <kaz> ... multi-device timing with any other applications
16:01:03 <kaz> cpn: media session coordinator is one approach
16:01:16 <kaz> ingar: it's important to open up it for anybody
16:01:24 <kaz> ... not limited to any specific protocols
16:01:34 <kaz> ack l
16:02:22 <tidoust> kaz: Another discussion place is Web of Things. I'll talk with WoT chairs also. Time synchronization is not yet defined within the model.
16:02:33 <kaz> s/kaz:/scribenikc: tidoust/
16:03:04 <kaz> topic: Content Authenticity
16:03:09 <kaz> scribe+
16:03:20 <kaz> cpn: potential workshop next year
16:03:28 <kaz> topic: CTA WAVE Collaboration
16:03:45 <kaz> cpn: streaming media test suite
16:03:52 <kaz> ... plan for follow up
16:04:07 <kaz> topic: Next meeting
16:04:12 <kaz> cpn: same time in Dec
16:04:22 <kaz> [adjourned]
16:04:27 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:04:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/05-me-minutes.html kaz
19:17:19 <Zakim> Zakim has left #me