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15:18:32 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:18:33 <Zakim> Meeting: AGWG Teleconference
15:18:38 <alastairc> chair: AlastairC
15:18:43 <alastairc> present: AlastairC
15:19:39 <alastairc> Regrets: NatT, Makoto, Poornima, SteveF
15:19:51 <alastairc> agenda+ Announcements and Introductions
15:21:24 <alastairc> agenda?
15:21:31 <alastairc> zakim, clear agenda
15:21:31 <Zakim> agenda cleared
15:21:36 <alastairc> agenda+ Announcements and Introductions
15:37:33 <alastairc> regrets+ JenniferS
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15:54:53 <Laura_Carlson> present+ Laura_Carlson
15:55:01 <Laura_Carlson> Scribe: Laura_Carlson
15:55:26 <LauraBMiller> present+
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15:59:15 <kevin> zakim, who is on the call?
15:59:15 <Zakim> Present: AlastairC, Laura_Carlson, LauraBMiller, tiffanyburtin, Rachael
15:59:19 <kevin> present+
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16:00:29 <Laura_Carlson> AC: Welcome.
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16:00:51 <alastairc> agenda?
16:00:54 <alastairc> agenda+ Subgroup wrap up briefings
16:01:02 <alastairc> agenda+ Discuss Explainer https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/pull/116#issuecomment-2444491152
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16:01:10 <alastairc> agenda+ Discussion of WCAG 3 Guidelines and Requirements https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Hc5fwRKZVdWPoEp-HzrCu4TTsXF36sozE45OfcYUnKU/edit?tab=t.0
16:01:13 <ShawnT> present+
16:01:17 <Tananda> present +
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16:01:23 <alastairc> agenda+ Existing subgroup Work
16:01:25 <alastairc> agenda?
16:01:27 <filippo-zorzi> present+
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16:02:27 <alastairc> zakim, take up next item
16:02:27 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Announcements and Introductions -- taken up [from alastairc]
16:02:29 <Laura_Carlson> ac: Any announcements?
16:02:36 <nina> present+
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16:03:12 <Detlev> present+
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16:03:37 <Kimberly> present+
16:03:43 <Laura_Carlson> ... mentoring/buddy system. One person was interested so far. If you would like to be one, please contact the Chairs.
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16:03:55 <julierawe> julierawe has joined #ag
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16:04:41 <Chuck> agenda?
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16:05:07 <Jen_G> Present+
16:05:14 <LenB> present+
16:05:41 <Laura_Carlson> ... a CFC is out for errata.  One -1 so far. Please respond with your +1 , -1 with reasons,  etc.
16:05:50 <mgarrish> present+
16:05:50 <alastairc> q?
16:05:59 <MJ> q+
16:06:04 <alastairc> ack MJ
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16:06:27 <Laura_Carlson> Mj: For buddy system. Could we announce it to the list?
16:06:30 <jtoles> present+
16:06:32 <kevin> q+
16:06:39 <alastairc> ack kevin
16:06:45 <Glenda> present+
16:06:56 <Laura_Carlson> Keven: minutes go our to the full group.
16:06:57 <julierawe> q+
16:07:03 <alastairc> ack julierawe
16:07:05 <kevin> s/Keven/Kevin/
16:07:32 <Laura_Carlson> Julie: dedicated email may be helpful.
16:07:51 <Laura_Carlson> ac: Any new members?
16:07:57 <scott> scott has joined #ag
16:08:05 <Chuck> Wecome Roldon Brown!
16:08:06 <scott> present+
16:08:15 <Chuck> s/Wecome/Welcome/
16:08:34 <bruce_bailey> Welcome Roldon !
16:08:35 <Laura_Carlson> RB: I'm Rouldon Brown, joined 2 weeks ago. Happy to join you.
16:08:40 <GN015> Welcome Roldon!
16:08:52 <bruce_bailey> q+ LauraBMiller
16:09:05 <alastairc> ack LauraBMiller
16:09:27 <Chuck> re-welcome Laura!
16:09:28 <bruce_bailey> We are so happy to have Laura as a Fed!
16:09:33 <Rachael> q+ resources for new members: https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/wiki
16:09:52 <Laura_Carlson> LM: I'm Laura Miller. I'm with GSA. Have worked in other capacities too.
16:09:59 <LauraBMiller> Old member, change of affiliation. On the WCAG2ICT working group.
16:10:08 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino has joined #ag
16:10:10 <Chuck> re-welcome Tiffany!
16:10:23 <gpellegrino> present+
16:10:25 <Chuck> q?
16:10:35 <alastairc> ack res
16:10:35 <Zakim> resources, you wanted to discuss new members: https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/wiki
16:10:43 <Laura_Carlson> TB: Tiffany Burton I'm now an invited expert. Previous work in other capacities.
16:11:04 <Laura_Carlson> RM: we do have intro info in our wiki.
16:11:06 <alastairc> zakim, take up next item
16:11:06 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Subgroup wrap up briefings -- taken up [from alastairc]
16:11:12 <bruce_bailey> Welcome back Tiffany!
16:12:15 <Laura_Carlson> DJ: Haptic Stimulation now calling ourselves Haptic input.
16:12:41 <Laura_Carlson> Outcome:
16:12:41 <Laura_Carlson> Haptic feedback can be adjusted and/or turned off.
16:13:05 <Laura_Carlson> ... goal: Users have the ability to adjust or turn off haptic input and output
16:13:15 <alastairc> q?
16:13:57 <Laura_Carlson> ... (reviews Method decision tree)
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16:16:18 <Laura_Carlson> ... Haptic is not a true alternative
16:16:43 <kirkwood> present+
16:16:49 <Laura_Carlson> ... We are focusing on haptic feedback. Haptic input should be a different subgroup
16:17:16 <Jennie_Delisi> q+
16:17:31 <alastairc> ack Jennie_Delisi
16:18:16 <Laura_Carlson> Jennie: congrats on the sensations of Haptic feedback.
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16:18:39 <LauraBMiller> q+ to say - great work on this. Love the decision tree.
16:19:20 <Laura_Carlson> ... need to differentiate between sales of haptic feedback and for a specific app?
16:19:33 <Laura_Carlson> DJ: we did discuss that.
16:19:52 <alastairc> ack LauraBMiller
16:19:52 <Zakim> LauraBMiller, you wanted to say - great work on this. Love the decision tree.
16:19:56 <Laura_Carlson> Ac: worth looking into.
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16:20:19 <Laura_Carlson> LM: great work on this.
16:20:46 <Laura_Carlson> AC: next week other subgroups will do exist briefings.
16:20:47 <alastairc> zakim, take up next item
16:20:47 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Discuss Explainer https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/pull/116#issuecomment-2444491152 -- taken up [from alastairc]
16:21:42 <Laura_Carlson> Ac: not too many comments.
16:22:40 <Laura_Carlson> ... goes over them: https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/pull/116
16:23:15 <Rachael> q+
16:23:36 <alastairc> ack ra
16:23:36 <Rachael> q-
16:23:42 <kevin> q+
16:23:56 <Laura_Carlson> RM: quantitative/quantifiable  is an editorial change.
16:24:28 <kirkwood> +1 to removing somewhat
16:25:06 <Laura_Carlson> Kevin: I think quantitative/quantifiable are different.
16:25:42 <Laura_Carlson> ...don't think they are interchangeable.
16:25:56 <Rachael> q+
16:26:04 <alastairc> ack kevin
16:26:06 <alastairc> ack Rachael
16:26:35 <Laura_Carlson> RM: Those are the terms we previously agreed on.
16:26:54 <Laura_Carlson> ... It is not a small change at this point.
16:26:54 <bruce_bailey> q+
16:26:59 <alastairc> ack bruce_bailey
16:27:13 <kirkwood> seems wishy washy. agree with Bruce
16:27:28 <Laura_Carlson> Bruce: I'm okay with it. But it is different 40 lines down.
16:27:52 <Laura_Carlson> Ac: could say comparable.
16:28:27 <kirkwood> q+
16:28:42 <alastairc> ack kirkwood
16:28:49 <Laura_Carlson> ... but there are a lot of dimensions to it.
16:28:56 <Rachael> q+
16:28:59 <alastairc> ack Rachael
16:29:14 <Laura_Carlson> JK: I'd get rid of "somewhat"
16:29:18 <bruce_bailey> i am all for additional wiggle room
16:29:32 <Laura_Carlson> RM: I would like to keep the wiggle room.
16:29:47 <Rachael> q+
16:29:50 <alastairc> ack Rachael
16:30:23 <Laura_Carlson> RM: Want to avoid coming back to this in 6 months
16:30:24 <bruce_bailey> q+
16:30:39 <alastairc> ack bruce_bailey
16:31:03 <Laura_Carlson> Bruce: "somewhat comparable" is fine.
16:31:15 <GN015> basing on comparable concept ?
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16:31:58 <julierawe> present+
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16:32:30 <alastairc> Suggesting: "An Assertion is another approach to meeting a Guideline. They do not replace Requirements, and not all Guidelines include Assertions."
16:32:38 <Laura_Carlson> AC: Detlev thought "Assertions may supplement Requirement to meet a Guideline. Not all Guidelines include Assertions." Was not clear.
16:33:07 <Laura_Carlson> Detlev:  The sentence feels wobbly. What does "accessibility under guidelines" mean? It's always about accessibility of content?
16:33:20 <Rachael> q+ to say Organizations can make an assertion that they followed a procedure as part of a conformance claim .
16:34:19 <Laura_Carlson> ... May open up claim for  things that no one can check.
16:34:40 <alastairc> ack Rachael
16:34:40 <Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to say Organizations can make an assertion that they followed a procedure as part of a conformance claim .
16:34:48 <Laura_Carlson> ... I don't know what the place of assertions are.
16:35:17 <Laura_Carlson> RM: would it help to say: Organizations can make an assertion that they followed a procedure as part of a conformance claim ?
16:35:24 <Rachael> q+
16:35:53 <alastairc> ack ra
16:35:59 <Laura_Carlson> Detlev: is an assertion enough? It seems a wooly way. Not verifiable. Not happy with this.
16:36:57 <Laura_Carlson> RM: ambiguity is internal as the group hasn't decided on assertions.
16:37:36 <Laura_Carlson> ... need to add an editors note.
16:37:39 <sarahhorton> +1 to Detlev
16:38:08 <scott> also +1 to Detlev's concerns.  great points
16:38:19 <ChrisLoiselle> I had to step away for a doctor call, I agree with what Detlev was raising but missed some of what he stated on call.
16:38:31 <Laura_Carlson> s/internal/intentional/
16:38:32 <ChrisLoiselle> +1 Detlev
16:38:42 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #ag
16:38:49 <Laura_Carlson> LC: +1 to Detlev
16:38:53 <Detlev> present+
16:39:23 <Detlev> q+
16:39:41 <Laura_Carlson> Ac: An assertion doesn't replace the requirement. Need to explain it better.
16:40:05 <alastairc> ack Detlev
16:40:27 <Laura_Carlson> Detlev: we should make it clear from the explainer.
16:41:23 <Laura_Carlson> Ac: assertions can' replace the requirements
16:41:43 <Laura_Carlson> s/can' replace /can't replace /
16:42:38 <Laura_Carlson> Ac: need to flesh out  level of maturity.
16:42:58 <Detlev> alastairc the last point (add or refine) was minor, maybe a bit too terse
16:43:24 <sarahhorton> q+
16:43:29 <Laura_Carlson> Ac: last call for comments on the explainer.
16:43:29 <alastairc> ack sarahhorton
16:43:49 <Laura_Carlson> Sarah: I had a comment in the google doc.
16:44:06 <Laura_Carlson> ... can we be more explicit?
16:46:21 <Rachael> q+
16:46:46 <Laura_Carlson> ... maybe make it more explicit about ATAG or UAAG and  WCAG 3 .
16:46:47 <alastairc> ack ra
16:47:29 <Laura_Carlson> RM: Can't commit to writing ATAG or UAAG
16:48:39 <Rachael> q+
16:48:46 <Laura_Carlson> RM: That is fine. But we need to make it clear what we are and aren't doing. How far are we going into that space?
16:48:49 <alastairc> ack Rachael
16:48:59 <kevin> q+
16:49:07 <Laura_Carlson> RM: We are walking a fine line.
16:49:29 <alastairc> ack kevin
16:50:46 <Laura_Carlson> Kevin: How far we can influence. There is information guidance. But not normative standard on UAs.
16:51:00 <Chuck> +1 to alastair's comment
16:52:12 <alastairc> zakim, take up next item
16:52:12 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Discussion of WCAG 3 Guidelines and Requirements https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Hc5fwRKZVdWPoEp-HzrCu4TTsXF36sozE45OfcYUnKU/edit?tab=t.0 -- taken up [from
16:52:15 <Zakim> ... alastairc]
16:52:15 <Laura_Carlson> Ac: Will send out an email  with updates and after that do a CFC.
16:52:22 <kirkwood> comprable denotes equivalency.  comparable is the ability to be compared. that was my earlier point. (sorry for slow comment)
16:54:15 <Laura_Carlson> Ac: (Reads comments)
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16:55:32 <sarahhorton> q+
16:55:41 <alastairc> ack sarahhorton
16:55:46 <Laura_Carlson> Ac: Suggestions to alternative for "Users have"
16:55:50 <dan_bjorge> q+
16:56:14 <Laura_Carlson> Sarah: not a  problem across the board.
16:56:46 <Laura_Carlson> ... maybe "users can"
16:57:09 <scott> scott has joined #ag
16:58:19 <Chuck> q+ to check on the need for a scribe change
16:58:32 <alastairc> ack dan_bjorge
16:58:53 <Laura_Carlson> Dan: general complaint about "users have"
16:59:15 <kirkwood> +1 to Dan
16:59:30 <Rachael> q+
16:59:31 <Laura_Carlson> ... it is unclear. All users? 2 users? What is the scope?
16:59:42 <Chuck> ack Ch
16:59:42 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to check on the need for a scribe change
16:59:49 <Rachael> q-
16:59:52 <bruce_bailey> scribe+
17:00:30 <bruce_bailey> Dan asks about "user have" versus technical statements
17:00:44 <nina> nina has joined #ag
17:01:13 <bruce_bailey> alastairc:  Outcomes are at technical level, next level up is about users
17:02:02 <sarahhorton> q+
17:02:06 <alastairc> ack sarahhorton
17:02:20 <bruce_bailey> alastairc: statement is to not do the thing or avoid.  Why that is a problem?
17:02:57 <bruce_bailey> sarahhorton:  seems like two different approaches
17:03:21 <Laura_Carlson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:03:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/05-ag-minutes.html Laura_Carlson
17:03:39 <bruce_bailey> sarahhorton from google doc:  These seem like very different things, one is prohibiting content so that users don't experience physical harm and one is allowing users to control content that causes them physical harm. Same comment for each use of this construct.
17:04:06 <bruce_bailey> Letting user control is different than avoiding.
17:04:48 <bruce_bailey> ... harm is okay so long as user has control?
17:05:09 <Rachael> q+
17:05:09 <bruce_bailey> [alastair word smithing]
17:05:20 <alastairc> ack Rachael
17:05:33 <bruce_bailey> sarahhorton:  by combining, takes away option to not include them
17:05:57 <alastairc> q+ on leaving it to the sub-group, as they will be creating trees
17:06:07 <Laura_Carlson> s/go our to /go to /
17:06:17 <alastairc> ack me
17:06:17 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on leaving it to the sub-group, as they will be creating trees
17:06:19 <dan_bjorge> +1 to Rachael; I think the original already made "don't include it" the first and most obvious option.
17:06:24 <bruce_bailey> Rachael:  Chair hat off, if foundational is control  versus avoidance at enhanced seems bad
17:07:35 <Chuck> scribe+
17:07:45 <Laura_Carlson> s/comprable/comparable /
17:07:58 <bruce_bailey> bruce_bailey has joined #ag
17:08:04 <Chuck> alastair:  As long as these statements include the options, they are going to be broken apart when the subgroups work on them.  the question is...
17:08:07 <bruce_bailey> scribe+
17:08:11 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #ag
17:08:14 <Chuck> alastair:  Does this include the direction we are including....
17:08:20 <sarahhorton> q+
17:08:22 <Detlev> present+
17:08:26 <bruce_bailey> alastair does it include what we are looking for?
17:08:28 <bruce_bailey> q+
17:08:30 <alastairc> ack sarahhorton
17:08:31 <Laura_Carlson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:08:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/05-ag-minutes.html Laura_Carlson
17:08:38 <LenB> LenB has joined #ag
17:09:16 <bruce_bailey> sarahhorton:  From process perspective, requirements have one expectation, not an "or".
17:09:39 <bruce_bailey> .... will be easier to combine later rather splitting up now.
17:10:15 <dan_bjorge> q+
17:10:21 <Chuck> bruce_bailey:  An editorial comment, there should be more consistent phrasing between them.
17:10:26 <Kimberly> Kimberly has joined #ag
17:10:26 <Chuck> alastair:  In what way?
17:10:35 <alastairc> ack bruce_bailey
17:10:38 <alastairc> ack dan_bjorge
17:11:12 <bruce_bailey> Bruce:  My comment in doc was just editorial -- I feel like they could phrased all the same
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17:11:37 <kirkwood> these together look good to me, agree with Dan
17:11:44 <bruce_bailey> Dan:  Prefers them combined, and see consistent.
17:11:47 <sarahhorton> They are consistent within the animation/motion category
17:12:26 <bruce_bailey> alastairc:  We will keep where we are for now, and pass work along to sub group
17:12:56 <kirkwood> “the system”
17:13:08 <bruce_bailey> [alastair continues going through comments]
17:13:15 <kirkwood> I queston “the system” wording
17:13:33 <bruce_bailey> alastairc:  not sure about better formulation
17:14:33 <Laura_Carlson> s/ ourselves Haptic input./ ourselves Haptic Feedback./
17:14:47 <bruce_bailey> sarahhorton comment in doc of squishy example.
17:14:55 <kirkwood> recommend “users are provided”
17:15:10 <Laura_Carlson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:15:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/05-ag-minutes.html Laura_Carlson
17:15:28 <bruce_bailey> alastairc:  This gets at why we have settled on Users Have for guidelines.
17:16:48 <bruce_bailey> kirkwood:  Users would have the labels.  Users would have access to the labels.  Features of content are not features of the users.
17:16:52 <kirkwood> +1 to Chuck
17:17:14 <Chuck> q+
17:17:17 <Chuck> ack Ch
17:17:20 <bruce_bailey> Rachael:  This the approach which has been the most productive so far.
17:17:21 <alastairc> ack Chuck
17:17:35 <sarahhorton> sarahhorton has joined #ag
17:18:04 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #ag
17:18:11 <Chuck> present+
17:18:29 <bruce_bailey> alastairc thanks Sarah for all the feedback on the doc, so that is why attention is on this call
17:18:45 <Chuck> q+
17:18:53 <alastairc> ack Chuck
17:18:54 <Chuck> ack Ch
17:19:00 <bruce_bailey> alastairc:  Chair hat off, we are open to different formulations.
17:19:12 <bruce_bailey> kirkwood:  Mechanism?
17:19:34 <kirkwood> disagree
17:20:01 <bruce_bailey> Chuck:  One goal is for plain language.  Mechanism available is not as understandable as Users have....
17:20:34 <Chuck> +1 to Kirkwood's disagreement, I should have added that my chair hat was off.
17:20:41 <sarahhorton> Agree that "Users are provided" is system/author focused and we are aiming for user focused statements
17:20:59 <scott> i'd want to avoid the use of "focus" in that figure/figcaption guideline
17:21:07 <bruce_bailey> alastairc:  Please don't get too stuck on wording, as we have a refreshed version publishing soon, and these pages are in the developmental stage.
17:21:55 <bruce_bailey> [at Interactive Component in doc]
17:22:38 <dan_bjorge> "users can see <thing>" is a particularly good example of why I dislike the "users have" sort of language - it makes it clear that we don't always mean "all users", but if we don't mean "all users" consistently, how is someone supposed to interpret where we mean "all" vs "some"?
17:22:43 <bruce_bailey> alastairc:  Making more generic, so focus available rather than keyboard focus available.
17:22:51 <bruce_bailey> q+
17:23:06 <alastairc> ack bruce_bailey
17:23:17 <Chuck> bruce_bailey:  This is one of the things that the subgroup is not getting traction on, what is comparable.
17:23:24 <Chuck> bruce_bailey:  We have 2 different user needs.
17:24:14 <bruce_bailey> bruce_bailey:  Subgroup has worked on number of keystrokes versus time needed via keyboard versus mouse
17:25:19 <bruce_bailey> alastairc:  could add note about under discussion, but that is true with all of them
17:27:01 <bruce_bailey> ChrisLoiselle:  APG has done work on custom / not custom / standard / non standard.  We should take advantage of that work.
17:27:28 <Laura_Carlson> s/sales of /styles of /
17:27:34 <bruce_bailey> .... still working through phrasing in subgroup.
17:27:55 <Laura_Carlson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:27:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/05-ag-minutes.html Laura_Carlson
17:28:03 <bruce_bailey> [edit made, subgroup might comeback]
17:28:19 <kevin> q+
17:28:35 <alastairc> ack kevin
17:29:03 <bruce_bailey> Rachael:  We need to settle on quantifiable versu qualifiable
17:29:15 <bruce_bailey> .... I think it will settle out
17:29:33 <Laura_Carlson> s/exist briefings./exit briefings./
17:29:37 <alastairc> agenda?
17:29:39 <bruce_bailey> kevin:  Suggest chairs have off-line conversation
17:29:53 <ChrisLoiselle> q+
17:29:56 <alastairc> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_vWUteDqNAXDYrcwylOoPt0U2hOrbjo1DzsTEs-ScFs/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.e17kdnrg60xc
17:29:59 <alastairc> ack ChrisLoiselle
17:30:08 <bruce_bailey> [explainer google doc]
17:30:28 <Rachael> q+ to answer Chris
17:31:02 <alastairc> ack Rachael
17:31:02 <Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to answer Chris
17:31:18 <bruce_bailey> ChrisLoiselle:  Please see comments via a Word doc, levels is not at all intuitive
17:31:32 <alastairc> zakim, take up next item
17:31:32 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Existing subgroup Work -- taken up [from alastairc]
17:32:03 <bruce_bailey> Rachael:  We got the comment, and will do some wordsmithing, but more in next versions.
17:33:15 <julierawe> julierawe has joined #ag
17:33:18 <julierawe> present+
17:33:25 <julierawe> q+
17:33:36 <alastairc> ack julierawe
17:33:51 <bruce_bailey> alastairc:  We will not be reconvening.
17:34:47 <Chuck> rrsagent, make minutes
17:34:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/05-ag-minutes.html Chuck
17:35:05 <Laura_Carlson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:35:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/11/05-ag-minutes.html Laura_Carlson
17:43:33 <Kimberly> Kimberly has joined #ag
17:43:38 <Kimberly> present+
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