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13:00:06 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/10/30-matf-irc
13:00:06 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:00:07 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
13:00:10 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF 30 October 2024
13:00:10 <Zakim> got it, JJ
13:00:16 <JJ> Meeting: MATF 30 October 2024
13:00:21 <JJ> present+
13:00:33 <JJ> agenda+ 4.1.2 Name, Role, Value
13:00:38 <JJ> agenda+ 4.1.3 Status Messages
13:00:42 <JJ> agenda+ Definitions
13:02:07 <Carolina> Carolina has joined #MATF
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13:03:43 <Carolina> present +
13:03:44 <julianmka> present+
13:04:15 <Karla> Karla has joined #matf
13:04:44 <Karla> present+
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13:06:12 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:06:12 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- 4.1.2 Name, Role, Value -- taken up [from JJ]
13:06:30 <JJ> scribe: julianmka
13:06:53 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
13:09:58 <julianmka> JJ: Recapped discussion to date in the issue for 4.1.2: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/48
13:10:03 <julianmka> q+
13:10:09 <JJ> ack julianmka
13:10:11 <Jamie> present+
13:11:12 <JJ> Keyboard interface definition: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/66
13:11:45 <julianmka> julianmka: Can we split the keyboard question from this SC?
13:12:25 <julianmka> Jamie: We can return to keyboard as an AT after settling this and other SCs
13:13:16 <Jamie> q+
13:13:28 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:13:29 <julianmka> JJ: I see failures of this SC come up frequently in audits. List items not marked as buttons, buttons without names, etc.
13:13:30 <Karla> q+
13:14:58 <julianmka> Jamie: WCAG2ICT note 2 acknowledges that there are differences between ATs and accessibility support of different platforms. Do we need to clarify that this SC applies only to custom components, or to standard components as well? (Since many standard components require additional modifiers to be accessible.)
13:15:51 <julianmka> JJ: And what about platform quirks like lists in Android where interactive items are often not marked as buttons and only have the "double-tap to activate" hint
13:16:02 <JJ> ack Karla
13:16:11 <julianmka> Carolina: Since users often turn off hints, I recommend using the explicit role.
13:16:37 <julianmka> Karla: Want to return to Jamie's question on Github -- this SC is only about interactive elements?
13:17:55 <julianmka> JJ: Definition of UI element in WCAG lists interactive elements but there's also "not limited to" language.
13:18:07 <julianmka> Jamie: Would an image with alt text but not marked up as an image fail this SC?
13:19:23 <julianmka> JJ: It would be better for users if elements have roles that are supported by the OS.
13:20:02 <julianmka> JJ: There are platform limitations, but maybe we're making it too complex if we require certain roles.
13:20:54 <julianmka> Jamie: At work, I've run into questions about whether something would fail if it didn't have a programmatically determinable role, even for non-interactive components.
13:21:24 <julianmka> Jamie: We often conflate `interactive` and `UI` components, but there is a distinction.
13:21:58 <julianmka> Jamie: We need to deviate from the idea that standard UI components meet accessibility criteria.
13:22:00 <julianmka> +1 Jamie
13:22:08 <julianmka> q+
13:22:19 <Karla> + Jamie
13:22:28 <JJ> ack julianmka
13:23:23 <JJ> Julian: Developers should correctly use the available accessibility API's such as setting name, role, value in the right places
13:24:44 <julianmka> JJ: Back to the image with alt text but no role: Maybe that would fail under 1.3.1 because there's presentation information that isn't given to a non-sighted user.
13:25:47 <julianmka> JJ: Based on the +1s, it sounds like we should require developers to enhance standard components with the accessibility API if necessary.
13:26:28 <julianmka> Jamie: Perhaps we add a note to 1.3.1 about including images' role in info
13:26:43 <julianmka> Jamie: Maybe a larger convo with the AGWG since it could affect web
13:28:14 <julianmka> q+
13:28:24 <Jamie> q+
13:28:50 <JJ> ack julianmka
13:28:57 <julianmka> JJ: How would we approach this in our documentation? Would we edit Note 1?
13:30:06 <JJ> julianmka: Notes the importance of keeping name and value separate, especially for TalkBack users on Android because they can choose the order that accessibility properties are announced
13:31:31 <JJ> julianmka: Important to honor user preferences, this can be achieved by using correct semantcs
13:32:05 <Jamie> q+
13:32:14 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:32:53 <JJ> Available accessibility API's related to 4.1.2: https://appt.org/en/guidelines/wcag/success-criterion-4-1-2#solution
13:32:54 <julianmka> Jamie: Are there other programmatic things to consider in native apps that go beyond what's described in WCAG?
13:35:03 <JJ> iOS accessibility traits: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/uikit/uiaccessibilitytraits
13:35:18 <JJ> Jetpack Compose (Android) roles: https://developer.android.com/reference/kotlin/androidx/compose/ui/semantics/Role
13:36:32 <JJ> julianmka: Mentions the behavior of accessibility traits on iOS, and where they can go beyond the web
13:39:26 <julianmka> JJ: We can add a note or understanding page about traits/roles in native apps.
13:39:37 <Karla> +1 JJ
13:39:44 <julianmka> +1 JJ
13:40:27 <julianmka> Jamie: In looking at the normative text of 4.1.2, it doesn't seem like there's much difference for native mobile, but more in the Notes.
13:40:43 <julianmka> +1 Jamie
13:40:50 <JJ> +1
13:40:53 <Karla> +1
13:41:58 <julianmka> JJ: Don't need a note about name, but we should add a note about roles and states.
13:42:07 <julianmka> JJ: But what would go in a note vs an Understanding doc?
13:42:28 <julianmka> q+
13:42:35 <JJ> ack julianmka
13:42:36 <Jamie> q+
13:42:37 <JJ> q?
13:43:35 <julianmka> julianmka: General language clarifying that "role" includes traits in iOS and roles in Android; further info in the Understanding doc
13:43:45 <Carolina> +1
13:43:53 <Jamie> +1
13:43:56 <Karla> +1
13:44:08 <JJ> +1
13:44:48 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:44:48 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, JJ
13:44:49 <julianmka> ACTION: Draft proposed language for a note about roles and states for 4.1.2
13:45:00 <julianmka> ack Jamie
13:46:15 <julianmka> Jamie: Note 2 final sentence in WCAG2ICT mentions "list of available actions" which we might need to modify since custom actions are important in native apps.
13:46:27 <julianmka> Jamie: Custom actions are unique to native mobile.
13:46:32 <julianmka> +1
13:46:37 <Karla> +1
13:47:18 <JJ> +1
13:47:18 <Jamie> +1 to possibly adding custom actions
13:47:18 <julianmka> JJ: Our note about roles and states could also call out custom actions
13:47:19 <julianmka> q+
13:47:25 <JJ> julianmka
13:47:27 <JJ> ack julianmka
13:48:30 <julianmka> Julian: Would custom actions fall under 4.1.2 or 1.3.1? I tend to think of it under Info & relationships.
13:48:58 <julianmka> JJ: Both could make sense, but it's important for 4.1.2, thinking of how switch control displays actions differently than screen readers for example.
13:49:09 <JJ> ACTION: Add note about custom actions to 4.1.2 (and/or 1.3.1?)
13:50:32 <JJ> q?
13:50:35 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:50:35 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 4.1.3 Status Messages -- taken up [from JJ]
13:50:35 <julianmka> Jamie: Content of the custom action needs to make sense, what SC does that fall into?
13:51:45 <julianmka> JJ: Reviews SC original language and WCAG2ICT additions.
13:52:12 <julianmka> JJ: Same issue as for other SCs, apps are not written in markup languages.
13:52:49 <Jamie> q+
13:52:53 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:54:47 <julianmka> Jamie: Android can include a spinner inside of a button. When someone activates the button, a spinner displays and then the label might change -- e.g. "Download" becomes "Downloading." That change (and loading indicator) is important to let AT users know. Does this fall into this SC?
13:58:23 <julianmka> JJ: For interactive elements that can change state, developers can change the name, or even transform the button into something else.
13:59:01 <julianmka> julianmka: This could be a time to fall back on semantics and use `value` since SRs automatically announce changes to it unlike `label`
13:59:06 <Karla> I think is better to add a status message in that case, to announce "Downloading" for example
13:59:32 <JJ> close the queue
13:59:32 <JJ> Zakim, close the queue
13:59:32 <Zakim> ok, JJ, the speaker queue is closed
14:00:54 <julianmka> julianmka: We have to handle toast components, in this SC or another.
14:01:16 <julianmka> JJ: Also need to mention users' expectations for toast/snackbar components.
14:02:45 <JJ> JJ: Continue discussion on Github: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/61
14:02:53 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:02:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/30-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:03:38 <JJ> ACTION: Add note about Toast/Snackbar/etc in 4.1.3
14:03:40 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:03:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/30-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:03:52 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
14:03:52 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2024/10/30-matf-actions.rdf :
14:03:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Draft proposed language for a note about roles and states for 4.1.2 [1]
14:03:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/10/30-matf-irc#T13-44-49
14:03:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Add note about custom actions to 4.1.2 (and/or 1.3.1?) [2]
14:03:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/10/30-matf-irc#T13-49-09
14:03:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Add note about Toast/Snackbar/etc in 4.1.3 [3]
14:03:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/10/30-matf-irc#T14-03-38
14:03:59 <JJ> zakim, bye
14:03:59 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been JJ, julianmka, Karla, Jamie
14:03:59 <Zakim> Zakim has left #matf