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13:56:20 <AndyS> zakim, where am I
13:56:20 <Zakim> I don't understand 'where am I', AndyS
13:56:28 <AndyS> zakim, which meeting is this?
13:56:28 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, AndyS.
13:56:34 <AndyS> zakim, help
13:56:34 <Zakim> Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
13:56:36 <Zakim> Some of the commands I know are:
13:56:36 <Zakim>  xxx is yyy       - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
13:56:36 <Zakim>                     if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
13:56:36 <Zakim>  xxx may be yyy   - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
13:56:37 <Zakim>  I am xxx         - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
13:56:37 <Zakim>  xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
13:56:37 <Zakim>  xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
13:56:37 <Zakim>  who's here?      - lists the participants on the phone
13:56:37 <Zakim>  who's muted?     - lists the participants who are muted
13:56:38 <Zakim>  mute xxx         - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
13:56:38 <Zakim>  unmute xxx       - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
13:56:38 <Zakim>  is xxx here?     - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
13:56:38 <Zakim>  list conferences - reports the active conferences
13:56:39 <Zakim>  this is xxx      - associates this channel with conference xxx
13:56:39 <Zakim>  excuse us        - disconnects from the irc channel
13:56:39 <Zakim> I last learned something new on $Date: 2020/12/31 21:20:53 $
13:57:10 <AndyS> rrsagent, help
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14:06:07 <Souri> present+
14:06:15 <doerthe> present+
14:06:43 <niklasl> present+
14:08:04 <TallTed> RRSAgent, pointer?
14:08:04 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2024/10/25-rdf-star-irc#T14-08-04
14:08:18 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:08:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/25-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:08:40 <TallTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:08:56 <TallTed> present+
14:09:08 <TallTed> meeting: RDF-star Semantics TF
14:09:54 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/10/24-rdf-star-minutes.html
14:09:54 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/10/31-rdf-star-minutes.html
14:09:54 <TallTed> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d0cd306-0be8-4267-865a-6272cc8d9da4/
14:09:55 <agendabot> TallTed, sorry, could not get https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d0cd306-0be8-4267-865a-6272cc8d9da4/ (code 429).
14:10:04 <pfps> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22minimal-baseline%22
14:10:06 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:10:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/25-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:10:42 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22alternative-baseline%22
14:10:53 <TallTed> present+ AndyS
14:11:10 <TallTed> present+ pfps
14:12:50 <TallTed> scribe: ad-hoc
14:13:01 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:13:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/25-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:13:08 <doerthe> I'll be away for 5 minutes
14:13:55 <AndyS> scribe: AndyS
14:14:00 <niklasl> Is https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/127 relevant?
14:14:01 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/127 -> Issue 127 Material about `rdf:ReificationProperty` (by afs) [needs discussion]
14:14:15 <AndyS> pfps: We have two baselines - "minimal" and "alternative"
14:15:35 <Souri> q+
14:15:35 <AndyS> Issue and wiki page https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/Notes-from-the-Semantic-Task-Force-meeting-2024%E2%80%9009%E2%80%9013
14:16:12 <AndyS> pfps: we can take that issue to proceed with the alt semantics
14:17:22 <AndyS> ack Souri
14:17:41 <AndyS> souri issue 127 is the main issue to decide
14:17:48 <doerthe> back
14:18:02 <AndyS> ... rdf:refies vs rdf:reifies and other properties
14:18:38 <AndyS> s/rdf:refies/rdf:reifies/
14:19:20 <AndyS> ... I have come back to either (1) rdf:refies or (2) a class of properties
14:20:29 <AndyS> pfps: I agree and I agree with the conclusions.
14:20:46 <AndyS> ... I will add comment(s) to issue 127
14:21:57 <niklasl> +1
14:22:31 <AndyS> ... unlock concepts and semantics documents
14:23:24 <AndyS> niklals: vocabulary descriptions, maybe not just yet
14:23:35 <AndyS> ... there is un-star-ing
14:24:35 <Souri> Choice spectrum: 1) rdf:reifies only; 2) rdf:reifies + rdf:asserts (I do not advocate this any more because it causes discussion about inclusion of s-p-o in the graph, as a side-effect); 3) rdf:reifies + rdfs:states (Thomas); 4) [rdf:reifies and] rdf:reificationProperty class -- any property may be used.
14:24:45 <Souri> My choice is either #1 or #4.
14:24:46 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/4 -> CLOSED Action 4 decide on the short names of the specifications (on pchampin) due 22 Dec 2022
14:24:46 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/1 -> CLOSED Issue 1 No activity (nor even README) since WG approval in August (by TallTed)
14:25:39 <AndyS> ... also need the range of rdf:refies ; the type of triple terms
14:28:10 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
14:28:15 <Souri> present+
14:29:09 <AndyS> AndyS: Would need text for rdf:reifies in RDF concepts - different from namespace description text
14:30:53 <AndyS> AndyS: Text for RDF primer?
14:32:03 <AndyS> ... we have discussed describing some usage patterns
14:33:43 <AndyS> ... primer not normative (can it be later than other docs?)
14:34:06 <AndyS> niklasl: I have material such as the TCAP'24 slides
14:36:57 <AndyS> Andy: We have discussed in depth LPG.
14:37:08 <AndyS> s/Andy:/AndyS:/
14:39:06 <Souri> q+
14:39:15 <AndyS> ack SourI
14:40:40 <AndyS> Souri: for the choices - no 4 choice, any property to connect a reifier
14:40:57 <AndyS> s/no 4/number 4/
14:42:19 <AndyS> ... may have non-default properties for my data
14:42:48 <AndyS> ... implications of rdf:reificationProperty on Turtle
14:43:39 <Souri> << :r | :s :p :o >> in Turtle ==> :r rdf:reifies <<( :s :p :o )>> .
14:43:58 <niklasl> AndyS: You can use specific types on the reifier to define particular kinds of reification.
14:44:16 <Souri> << :r :claims | :s :p :o >> in Turtle ==> :r :claims <<( :s :p :o )>> .
14:44:29 <niklasl> q+
14:46:12 <AndyS> niklasl: One form of the class rdf:reificationProperty is "all properties in the data with object rdf:tripleType"
14:47:11 <Souri> I see :r rdf:reifies <<( :s :p :o )>> ; a :Claim . being shortened by the #4 choice to => :r :claims <<( :s :p :o )>> .
14:47:12 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/4 -> CLOSED Action 4 decide on the short names of the specifications (on pchampin) due 22 Dec 2022
14:47:20 <AndyS> ... owl:sameAs ends up as a member of rdf:reificationProperty class
14:47:31 <doerthe> q+
14:49:46 <TallTed> q+
14:49:50 <AndyS> Souri: shorter path when using with a custom property
14:51:13 <AndyS> ack niklasl
14:51:23 <AndyS> ack doerthe
14:51:36 <AndyS> doerthe: I favour option number 4.
14:52:20 <Souri> q+
14:52:26 <AndyS> ... the reification property class removes the need for "well-formedness" syntax restriction
14:54:02 <AndyS> ... we are unclear about what we want from the reification property class
14:54:32 <Souri> IMO, to avoid complexity, we should avoid creating a subproperty relationship between custom properties such as :claims and rdf:reifies.
14:54:38 <AndyS> ... also - what is the relationship of rdf:reifies to the reification property class
14:54:58 <niklasl> +1
14:55:27 <AndyS> q?
14:55:30 <doerthe> scribe: doerthe
14:55:36 <AndyS> ack TallTed
14:55:36 <Souri> q-
14:56:09 <doerthe> doerthe: what do we need the ReificationPropertyClass for?
14:56:19 <doerthe> scribe -
14:56:22 <doerthe> scribe-
14:57:08 <Souri> q+
14:57:43 <AndyS> TallTed: Multiple forms may require the user to have to choose between different choices and they have to understand both.
14:57:52 <AndyS> ack Souri
14:59:08 <AndyS> Souri: User can already do complex things (e.g. subproperty rdf:type) - we can avoid putting in more of those points in.
14:59:20 <AndyS> q?
15:00:22 <niklasl> q+
15:00:35 <AndyS> ack niklasl
15:01:06 <AndyS> niklasl:  ReificationPropertyClass avoids the need to hardcode rdf:reifies.
15:02:00 <AndyS> ... additional members may be only ones defined by the app
15:07:16 <niklasl> q+
15:07:16 <Souri> I have the same feeling about minimality
15:07:30 <doerthe> currently reading again, therefore the silence
15:07:42 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:07:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/25-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:09:20 <AndyS> pfps: We can explain good (and bad) usage of a very general mechanism.
15:10:02 <TallTed> s|https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/4 ||g
15:10:02 <TallTed> s|https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/1 ||g
15:10:12 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:10:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/25-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:10:54 <doerthe> I have an opinion now: I am against well-formedness, fine with the rest of the baselines
15:12:05 <Souri> I like minimality + well-formed (requiring tripleTerm to be present only in the object position) but without requiring that rdf:reifies should be the only predicate that can have tripleTerm as object
15:12:47 <doerthe> of course I am still against the object position only, but yu know that ;)
15:13:34 <AndyS> niklasl: Pierre-Antoine has suggested call it "triple term property" and I now favour that.
15:14:19 <Souri> +1 to using the term "tripleTerm property" (instead of "reification property")
15:14:30 <AndyS> s/property"/property class"/
15:15:24 <AndyS> q?
15:15:29 <AndyS> ack niklasl
15:16:14 <Souri> What would be the replacement for rdf:reifies property then (that allows us to avoid the term "reification")?
15:16:36 <doerthe> q+
15:16:39 <Souri> q+
15:17:12 <AndyS> niklasl: If the range of rdf:reifies is "triple term" , and call rdf:reifies " "tripleTerm property""
15:17:48 <AndyS> ack doerthe
15:18:03 <niklasl0> niklasl0 has joined #rdf-star
15:18:08 <niklasl0> present+
15:18:27 <Souri> q-
15:18:49 <AndyS> doerthe; Would your triple term class be disjoint from owl:datatypeProperty?
15:19:49 <AndyS> s/doerther;/doerther:/
15:21:29 <AndyS> ... in RDF - can a triple term property also be used with an IRI object?
15:21:41 <AndyS> q+
15:24:53 <AndyS> q-
15:27:48 <AndyS> Souri: want triple terms restricted to the object position.
15:28:53 <niklasl0> I agree. (Since I think of generlaized RDF as the "entailment space" where that object restriction does not apply.)
15:29:23 <Souri> Thanks. Bye.
15:30:49 <niklasl0> ex:claims owl:propertyChainAxiom ( ex:rolifiedClaimClass rdf:reifies ).
15:31:10 <niklasl0> ex:Claim owl:equivalentClass [ owl:onProperty ex:rolifiedClaimClass ; owl:hasSelf true ] .
15:31:40 <niklasl0> <a> a ex:Claim ; rdf:reifies <<( :s :p :o )>> .
15:31:52 <niklasl0> # Entails  => <a> ex:claims <<( :s :p :o )>> .
15:35:05 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-star
15:36:17 <AndyS> topic: RDF Star WG : Semantics TF -- https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d0cd306-0be8-4267-865a-6272cc8d9da4/20241025T100000/
15:36:27 <AndyS> AndyS has changed the topic to: RDF Star WG : Semantics TF -- https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d0cd306-0be8-4267-865a-6272cc8d9da4/20241025T100000/
15:38:03 <AndyS> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:38:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/25-rdf-star-minutes.html AndyS
15:38:49 <TallTed> s|topic: RDF Star WG : Semantics TF -- https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d0cd306-0be8-4267-865a-6272cc8d9da4/20241025T100000/||
15:39:02 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:39:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/25-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:39:09 <AndyS> zakim, end the meeting
15:39:09 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been TallTed, tl, eBremer, pchampin, Dominik_T, gtw, ora, fsasaki, AZ, AndyS, gkellogg, james, pfps, draggett, niklasl, doerthe, again, ktk,
15:39:12 <Zakim> ... Souri
15:39:12 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:39:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/25-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
15:39:19 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, AndyS; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:39:19 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
15:39:22 <doerthe> by TallTed :)
15:39:30 <doerthe> bye
15:39:34 <doerthe> I meant
15:39:51 <AndyS> rrsagent, please excuse us
15:39:51 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2024/10/24-rdf-star-actions.rdf :
15:39:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: pchampin to check on standard practices for media  type registrations. [1]
15:39:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/10/24-rdf-star-irc#T16-44-15
15:39:54 <gb> Created -> action #134 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/134