16:57:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:57:10 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/10/24-aria-irc
16:57:10 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:57:11 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
16:57:15 <spectranaut_> chair: ValerieYoung
16:57:23 <spectranaut_> agendabot, find agenda
16:57:23 <agendabot> spectranaut_, OK. This may take a minute...
16:58:02 <agendabot> Sorry, I did not find an agenda.
16:58:21 <katez> katez has joined #aria
16:58:38 <katez> present+
16:59:00 <spectranaut_> agendabot, find agenda
16:59:00 <agendabot> spectranaut_, OK. This may take a minute...
16:59:01 <agendabot> Sorry, I did not find an agenda.
16:59:17 <spectranaut_> agendabot, find agenda
16:59:17 <agendabot> spectranaut_, OK. This may take a minute...
16:59:17 <agendabot> Sorry, I did not find an agenda.
17:00:42 <scott> scott has joined #aria
17:00:47 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #aria
17:01:40 <melsumner> melsumner has joined #aria
17:02:04 <zakk> zakk has joined #aria
17:02:27 <zakk> present+
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17:03:05 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
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17:03:18 <hdv> present+
17:03:21 <ChrisCuellar> present+
17:03:25 <pkra> present+
17:03:37 <filippo-zorzi> present+
17:03:41 <giacomo-petri> present+
17:03:56 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:03:56 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:03:57 <agendabot> Sorry, I did not find an agenda.
17:04:01 <aaronlev> aaronlev has joined #aria
17:04:27 <jamesn> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2024Oct/0015.html
17:04:27 <agendabot> jamesn, sorry, could not get https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2024Oct/0015.html (code 429).
17:05:06 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
17:05:12 <pkra> scribe+
17:05:15 <StefanS> present+
17:05:19 <jamesn> agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://tinyurl.com/32y3ka5r)
17:05:19 <jamesn> agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://tinyurl.com/4yw4zvhu)
17:05:19 <jamesn> agenda+ [WPT Open PRs](https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y)
17:05:19 <jamesn> agenda+ [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates)
17:05:19 <jamesn> agenda+ [9.3 Presentational Roles Conflict Resolution does not consider custom element use cases](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2303)
17:05:20 <jamesn> agenda+ [\[AriaNotify\] Is NotificationId the right name?](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2329)
17:05:20 <jamesn> agenda+ [Inconsistent author/ua restrictions for columnheader / rowheader](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2348)
17:05:20 <jamesn> agenda+ [Inconsistency in allowed uses of placeholder and aria-placeholder](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2347)
17:05:21 <jamesn> agenda+ [Addition: selectedoption element](https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2344)
17:05:21 <jamesn> agenda+ [add mapping for html focusgroup attribute](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/565)
17:05:21 <jamesn> agenda+ [Stop automatically exposing details relation for figure -&gt; figcaption](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/564)
17:05:25 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:05:25 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://tinyurl.com/32y3ka5r) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:06:08 <pkra> spectranaut_: core-aam#238
17:06:08 <smockle> present+
17:06:09 <StefanS> q+
17:06:17 <scott> present+
17:06:27 <pkra> ... listing downstream AT support for AAMs.
17:06:33 <Brett-Lewis> Brett-Lewis has joined #aria
17:06:45 <pkra> ... sounds interesting. would be good to get input.
17:07:10 <pkra> jcraig: connects to the other issue
17:07:19 <pkra> spectranaut_: ok, let's move to aria#2361
17:07:43 <pkra> ... about shipping features with incomplete API mappings & AT support
17:07:50 <pkra> jamesn: can we agenda this?
17:07:53 <pkra> jcraig: sounds good.
17:07:55 <StefanS> q-
17:08:33 <pkra> spectranaut_: to recap, this was triggered by colIndexText etc on Mac.
17:08:50 <pkra> aaronlev: it has windows support.
17:09:13 <nina> nina has joined #aria
17:09:25 <pkra> jcraig: we don't plan VO support. There's no webkit implementation right now for lack of OS API.
17:09:56 <pkra> aaronlev: NVDA and JAWS support it. I think Firefox also has support.
17:10:15 <pkra> jcraig: part of the concern came from WPT tests passing for chrome & firefox on Mac but it doesn't do anything.
17:10:22 <jamesn> q+
17:10:39 <pkra> ... that's somewhat of a limitation of the testing setup since it doesn't do anything.
17:10:54 <jamesn> q-
17:11:03 <pkra> ... then there are notes on Apple specific in the issue.
17:11:15 <pkra> spectranaut_: let's continue  next week.
17:11:27 <pkra> ... aria#2359 clarifying tables, grid, treegrid
17:11:45 <StefanS> q+
17:11:49 <jcraig> scribe+ jcraig
17:11:53 <pkra> ... from melsumner and scott conversation, let's agenda.
17:12:09 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2359
17:12:19 <StefanS> q-
17:12:22 <jcraig> StefanS: grid allows for more.
17:12:37 <jcraig> spectranaut_: please add to the issue for discussion next week
17:12:42 <pkra> scribe-
17:12:54 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2357
17:13:00 <jcraig> spectranaut_: assign to daniel
17:13:10 <jcraig> Topic: Neew PRs
17:13:22 <jcraig> zakim, next itemnext
17:13:22 <Zakim> I don't understand 'next itemnext', jcraig
17:13:26 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:13:26 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://tinyurl.com/4yw4zvhu) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:13:30 <sarah> sarah has joined #aria
17:13:36 <sarah> present+
17:13:41 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2360
17:13:58 <jcraig> spectranaut_: scott filed update legend to provide name to optgroup
17:14:33 <jcraig> scott: legend element allowed as customizable select in HTML
17:14:42 <jcraig> open question in the PR
17:15:46 <jcraig> scott: what takes precedence... happy for reviews, but draft PR still pending the HTML discussion
17:16:38 <jcraig> keithamus: will review in the meantime
17:16:56 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2358
17:17:26 <jcraig> jamesn: yes editorial. will merge after speaking with daniel
17:17:30 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:17:30 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- [WPT Open PRs](https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:18:29 <jcraig> draft pr https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/48797
17:19:41 <jcraig> jcraig: Snuck in through DOM reflection tests mid-Interop 2024
17:19:48 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:19:48 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:21:17 <jcraig> spectranaut_: remove deepfdive tag from complex dashboard issue https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2162
17:21:59 <jcraig> aaronlev: need james teh for deep dive re: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2162#issuecomment-2412328325
17:22:22 <katez> katez has joined #aria
17:23:08 <jcraig> no good time to deep dive with all: Australia, US, and EU
17:23:45 <jcraig> spectranaut_: discuss with Jamie... maybe have a two-part deep dive?
17:24:00 <jcraig> giacomo-petri: okay by me
17:24:23 <jcraig> spectranaut_: will coord with jamie and suggest a time
17:24:30 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:24:30 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- [9.3 Presentational Roles Conflict Resolution does not consider custom element use cases](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2303) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:24:57 <jcraig> zakim, open item 4
17:24:57 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:25:32 <jcraig> aaronlev: melsumner suggested deep dive on https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/95
17:26:06 <jcraig> will discuss to consider a time at next week's meeting
17:26:15 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:26:15 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- [9.3 Presentational Roles Conflict Resolution does not consider custom element use cases](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2303) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:26:58 <jcraig> jamesn: i'm assigned... it's on me in any case. aaronlev is there anything left to clarify from Chrome issues?
17:27:31 <jcraig> happy for others to take this work on too?
17:27:45 <jcraig> sarah: are there custom elements defined in AAMs?
17:27:59 <jcraig> scott: identified as generic
17:28:10 <jcraig> need a change if moving them to none
17:28:33 <jcraig> jamesn: need a way to account for conflict resolution
17:28:41 <jcraig> keithamus: where is that defined
17:28:54 <jcraig> jamesn: hopefully linkable to html def
17:29:17 <jcraig> scott: make them "silly `role=none`s"
17:29:21 <DougG> DougG has joined #aria
17:29:27 <jcraig> wrapper is none or generic
17:29:45 <sarah> q+
17:29:52 <jcraig> they can either be something or contain other things
17:30:42 <jcraig> keithamus: can be confusing. is it an autonomous element with functionality, or just a silly div
17:31:00 <spectranaut_> q?
17:31:30 <jcraig> scott: you're spot on... in some cases, if you want attrs to the internals, whether light dom or shadow dom...
17:32:42 <jcraig> some attributes are ignored, but some are not... e.g. "gerrymandered" attrs
17:33:06 <spectranaut_> ack sarah
17:33:20 <sarah> q-
17:33:35 <jcraig> sarah: i volunteer to make the AAM PR... and help jamesn with presentational roles conflict PR
17:34:19 <jcraig> aaronlev: write the way you think it should work (not necessarily based on chrome implementation) and implementors will review
17:34:34 <jcraig> zakim, next issue
17:34:34 <Zakim> I don't understand 'next issue', jcraig
17:34:40 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:34:40 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- [\[AriaNotify\] Is NotificationId the right name?](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2329) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:35:28 <jcraig> DougG: keithamus, clay, and doug are here
17:35:52 <sarah> q+
17:35:52 <spectranaut_> q?
17:35:54 <jcraig> keithamus: name "notificationID in contention... proposing type
17:35:59 <spectranaut_> ack sarah
17:36:00 <jcraig> q+
17:36:24 <jcraig> sarah: did we resolve whether this would be part of the initial v1?
17:37:08 <jcraig> keithamus: wanted enumeration of category names, and what would validation look like? unsure, so motivated to not ship it immediately.
17:37:28 <jcraig> happy with a "fast follow" (1.01 release)
17:37:35 <sarah> ack me
17:38:05 <pkra> scribe+
17:38:38 <pkra> keithamus: I think the functionality is pretty well defined in that we know what we're presenting to AT - a stable identifier so they can reason on the type of message.
17:38:51 <pkra> ... open question is: how useful is that? We're discussing this with AT and others.
17:39:12 <smockle> q?
17:39:15 <pkra> ... semantics around the value are in the air but that I think that doesn't preclude discussing the name. Letter vs spirit of law.
17:39:28 <jcraig> q+ to bikeshed notificationClassName which does not imply enumerated value list
17:39:30 <spectranaut_> ack jcraig
17:39:30 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to bikeshed notificationClassName which does not imply enumerated value list
17:39:30 <pkra> ... a fixed identifier that's sent to provide AT
17:39:30 <jcraig> ack me
17:39:38 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria
17:39:58 <pkra> jcraig: I wasn't aware that this identifier was considered for something like an enumerated list of category names.
17:40:10 <pkra> ... sounds like you want it to be an enumerated list.
17:40:30 <Adam_Page> present+
17:40:42 <pkra> ... what if we use notification class name
17:40:56 <keithamus> q+
17:41:06 <smockle> q+ to see if we can get consensus about whether the option needs a “notification” prefix
17:41:06 <pkra> ... it seemed an open-ended thing that authors would define. ID would seem to be a unique thing.
17:41:12 <pkra> ... but it sounds like it's somewhere in between.
17:41:37 <pkra> keithamus: that sounds about right. It's supposed to be heavily re-usable.
17:42:05 <pkra> ... we're currently categorizing apps to figure out if they fit into a category for which we could prescribe.
17:42:34 <pkra> ... it might not be too prescriptive. But we're hoping to get some level of collaboration between authors and AT to work out.
17:42:46 <pkra> ... so class name seems like a reasonable suggestion.
17:42:50 <jcraig> q+ to discuss the instagram an zoom notifications list
17:43:14 <pkra> ... to be clear it's a scalar.
17:43:17 <spectranaut_> ack keithamus
17:43:17 <keithamus> ack keithamus
17:43:52 <pkra> clay: do we need notification to be in there?
17:44:05 <pkra> ... could it be notification priority / interrupt / etc
17:44:17 <spectranaut_> ack smockle
17:44:17 <Zakim> smockle, you wanted to see if we can get consensus about whether the option needs a “notification” prefix
17:44:20 <pkra> ... is there some other use of "type" that people are concerned about?
17:44:34 <spectranaut_> ack jcraig
17:44:34 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to discuss the instagram an zoom notifications list
17:44:35 <pkra> jcraig: I don't have a problem nixing that.
17:44:44 <sarah> sarah has joined #aria
17:44:47 <sarah> +1 to "type"
17:44:51 <pkra> ... but I wanted to talk about instagram and zoom notification use cases.
17:45:00 <pkra> ... in the f2f there were different goals from different stakeholdesr.
17:45:22 <pkra> ... whether we want AT or platform APIs do the notification management while apps send as much as they want.
17:45:36 <pkra> ... or if we want the apps to manage.
17:46:09 <pkra> ... in the draft doc we had a section on this. zoom is short (now?) instagram still quite long.
17:46:22 <sarah> q+
17:46:34 <pkra> ... I don't think that level of granularity has a place in the API. But others in the room had differing opinions.
17:46:49 <spectranaut_> ack sarah
17:46:53 <pkra> ... if the latter remains a goal, then I think it needs to be broader.
17:47:07 <jamesn> qv?
17:47:15 <pkra> sarah: it would help to understand what screenreaders might do here.
17:47:38 <pkra> ... at tpac, things like earcons came up. jaws customizations per app came up.
17:47:48 <pkra> ... I would appreciate this kind of a list if we have it.
17:47:50 <aaronlev> q+
17:48:12 <spectranaut_> ack aaronlev
17:48:38 <pkra> aaronlev: radical idea: instead of making it very wide and then having to control a potential mess, what if we create a group to brainstorm as many different class names as we can, e.g., in a wiki.
17:48:51 <pkra> ... then give us a couple of months to discuss those.
17:48:53 <keithamus> q+
17:49:24 <jcraig> q+ to use "incoming chat" as the straw man example
17:49:30 <pkra> ... we'll know it won't be everything but we'll know we support those in v1. Then if people come with additional use cases, we can open it up widely.
17:49:42 <pkra> ... that's easier than boiling it down later.
17:49:54 <spectranaut_> ack keithamus
17:50:04 <pkra> keithamus: that's something we're after right now.
17:50:40 <pkra> ... starting with our own at github. Spent hours to just start with our, asked other teams.
17:51:11 <pkra> ... to recap sarah, some kind of list so we know what we're talking about before naming this. That's a good takeaway.
17:51:40 <pkra> jcraig: was using "incoming chat" as as strawman. If we take chat applications, there'll be hundreds.
17:51:57 <pkra> ... but if github has over 800 types, how much of a chance do we have to come up with a taxonomy.
17:52:09 <pkra> aaronlev: but would you agree it's useful to do the exercise?
17:52:28 <pkra> jcraig: yes. just the github list would be valuable in say a gist.
17:52:37 <pkra> keithamus: right. I can give a few now if that helps.
17:52:52 <jamesn> qv?
17:53:15 <jamesn> ack jcraig
17:53:15 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to use "incoming chat" as the straw man example
17:53:31 <pkra> ... 4 come to mind immediately.
17:53:33 <pkra> ... dynamic forms, e.g., search. 15 search results. could be aria-live but we have reasons not to.
17:53:40 <pkra> ... for soft navigations we announce the title
17:53:56 <scott> scott has joined #aria
17:54:04 <pkra> ... select range of checkbox, e.g., issue list. top checkbox selecting 25, announces that.
17:54:27 <spectranaut_> q?
17:54:32 <pkra> ... we don't announce receiving notification but if you focus it, the computed label is the number of notification.
17:54:42 <pkra> jcraig: that's github notifications?
17:54:51 <pkra> keithamus: yes. that's our intenal.
17:55:09 <pkra> jcraig: seems like those might boil down? I heard something like status change, count change.
17:55:25 <sarah> q+
17:55:27 <pkra> aaronlev: yes that's what I had in mind.
17:55:35 <pkra> ... maybe it's 20 instead of 800.
17:55:44 <jcraig> q+
17:55:55 <pkra> keithamus: Right. majority is status or count. Some others might fall out of this.
17:56:09 <pkra> ... then there's live updates, e.g., when a comment comes in.
17:56:20 <pkra> ... might be we want something more specific there.
17:56:36 <pkra> ... that's something we've discussed quite a bit, figuring out the direction.
17:57:14 <jcraig> q+ to compare to system notifications levels of control.... per app/domain allow/deny and where/how/persistence.... all "types" or "classes" are left up to the apps' settings.
17:57:14 <pkra> aaronlev: I could imagine some might feed back into other aria discussions, e.g., characters left for input of post.
17:57:41 <spectranaut_> zakim, close the queue
17:57:41 <Zakim> ok, spectranaut_, the speaker queue is closed
17:58:12 <pkra> sarah: one other piece of information I'd welcome is now just how authors are using notifications but also how AT users, incl. speech and braille, would want to receive them, e.g., mute some.
17:58:30 <pkra> ... would that be served by the type string or, as I think it's right now, by the text string.
17:59:05 <pkra> keithamus: one of problems is that the strings change, counts or "message from X".
17:59:09 <jcraig> ack me
17:59:09 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to compare to system notifications levels of control.... per app/domain allow/deny and where/how/persistence.... all "types" or "classes" are left up to the
17:59:12 <Zakim> ... apps' settings.
17:59:21 <pkra> sarah: right, it's regexping right now
17:59:37 <pkra> jcraig: I think this work will touch on what went wrong with aria-live.
18:00:05 <pkra> ... comparing that to system notifications: users can block entire app, some, does it go away, persist.
18:00:13 <pkra> ... beyond that it's business logic of the app.
18:00:23 <pkra> ... instagram has 30/40 types you can shut off individually.
18:00:41 <pkra> ... so I agree we should talk to AT users.
18:00:52 <pkra> ... anecdata is "let me turn them off"
18:01:08 <pkra> ... but having granular control seems like key here.
18:01:30 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
18:01:34 <pkra> zakim, end meeting
18:01:34 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been katez, zakk, hdv, ChrisCuellar, pkra, filippo-zorzi, giacomo-petri, StefanS, smockle, scott, sarah, Adam_Page
18:01:36 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
18:01:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/24-aria-minutes.html Zakim
18:01:44 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, pkra; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:01:44 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
18:01:56 <jcraig> s/having granular control /having granular control in the website's settings (not the screen reader settings) /
18:10:53 <jcraig> present+
18:11:06 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:11:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/24-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:11:57 <jcraig> s/Topic: Neew PRs//
18:12:09 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:12:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/24-aria-minutes.html jcraig
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