17:04:12 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-at
17:04:17 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/10/23-aria-at-irc
17:04:17 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:04:18 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike
17:04:39 <jugglinmike> meeting: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group Weekly Teleconference
17:04:45 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
17:04:47 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
17:04:54 <ChrisCuellar> ChrisCuellar has joined #aria-at
17:04:55 <ChrisCuellar> present+
17:05:14 <jugglinmike> present+ ChrisCuellar
17:05:25 <jugglinmike> present+ Matt_King
17:05:36 <jugglinmike> present+ mmoss
17:05:48 <jugglinmike> present+ ChrisCuellar
17:06:01 <jugglinmike> Topic: Review agenda and next meeting dates
17:07:18 <jugglinmike> https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/wiki/October-23%2C-2024-Agenda
17:07:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Requests for changes to agenda?
17:08:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll stick with the agenda as scheduled
17:08:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next Community Group Meeting: Thursday October 31
17:08:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next AT Driver Subgroup meeting: Monday November 4 (Note: Matt not available due to travel)
17:10:12 <jugglinmike> Topic: Current status
17:10:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We'll skip this topic this week. Please see the agenda for the latest information
17:10:41 <jugglinmike> Topic: Testing action menu button with activeDescendant
17:10:59 <jugglinmike> subtopic: Issue 1144:  Priority of posinset and setsize assertions in test 5 "Open a menu to  the last item"
17:11:04 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/1144
17:11:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Apple does not think the assertion in question should be a "must" or a "should". They believe it should be fully optional
17:12:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I've been giving this a lot of thought, and I actually was just about to make a change to the test plan, but the community group needs to weigh in, first
17:13:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Do folks think screen readers "should" exhibit this behavior? Or just that they "may"?
17:13:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think the default would be toward consensus among vendors. In this case, the most straightforward path to consensus is "may"
17:15:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In the action menu button, we have a test that opens the menu. Once the menu is open and focus is on the first item, you press the "end" key or the "arrow" key to move to the final item. The question is, when you press one of those keys, should it say "action 4" or "action 4, 4 of 4"?
17:15:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Apple doesn't think that VoiceOver "should" convey the position ("4 of 4" in this case)
17:15:40 <jugglinmike> Michael_Fairchild: Did Apple share their rationale?
17:15:45 <jugglinmike> present+ Michael_Fairchild
17:16:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: They shared their rationale in a comment on the issue
17:16:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For context, VoiceOver does do this for tabs, radio buttons in a radio group, and items in a list (which they sometimes call a "table")
17:17:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: VoiceOver does not do this in folders or menus. Additionally, in their verbosity settings, they don't offer a way of changing this behavior
17:17:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: VoiceOver does allow users to toggle announcement of "name", "status", and "type"
17:17:51 <jugglinmike> present+ James_Scholes
17:18:14 <jugglinmike> Michael_Fairchild: My initial reaction is in line with Matt_King--that it makes more sense to convey it than to not convey it. But I'm still processing...
17:19:04 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: The implication that the information shouldn't be conveyed because it isn't onscreen makes me uncomfortable. I'm sure we can all imagine a huge number of cases where a screen reader conveys information that isn't immediately present in visual form
17:19:32 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: A sighted user certainly can see that a given collection has a large number or small number of items
17:19:49 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: There's also an argument to be made for consistency
17:20:13 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: And also weighing on my judgment is the fact that they don't let you opt in or opt out of receiving this information
17:21:02 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: To be honest, I disable this kind of information in my screen reader of choice. I'm partly speaking for the many screen readers who I know rely on this information as essential to their way-finding
17:21:31 <jugglinmike> Michael_Fairchild: the more I'm thinking through it, the more I agree. Visually, you have a sense of the size of a menu and your relative position within the menu
17:22:12 <jugglinmike> Michael_Fairchild: Also, whenever you loop around, there could be some ambiguity as to whether the looping occurred--especially with longer lists
17:22:24 <jugglinmike> Michael_Fairchild: I think it makes more sense to convey it than not
17:22:41 <jugglinmike> Michael_Fairchild: Would it be sufficient to say that there should be a mechanism to convey something like this?
17:23:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We don't have any testing related to what users could do by changing settings. That would be a level of complexity that I don't think we would want to add to the project
17:23:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Stepping back a bit, I've been observing lately some of the conversations we've been having with Vispero about "should" versus "may".
17:24:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It seems more and more common that leaning toward "may" for things that are... If you were to build a brand-new screen reader from the ground-up, and you had to prioritize functionality toward things that are going to enable people to work with your software. That's what "must" is about
17:25:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think Vispero is starting to regard "should" as a reasonably high bar, as well, because ATs get dinged for not satisfying those
17:25:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So we have to be fairly confident when we use "should" that failing to implement the behavior actually degrades the experience in a meaningful way
17:26:18 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I think many people would argue that the high bar is met by wayfinding information. Cena is one
17:26:36 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I don't believe Vispero has raised any concerns about this particular information
17:26:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: They have not
17:27:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: When you're moving through the menu, I think we're aligned on the information being a "should"
17:27:20 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Not getting this information remains the hardest thing for me as a VoiceOver user on a Mac
17:27:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: When I go to the desktop on the Mac, the fact that I have no idea how many icons are on the desktop (especially when there are many)--that's really hard!
17:28:02 <jugglinmike> q
17:28:42 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: You gave the hypothetical about if you were building a new screen reader. Well, PAC did build one, and we never even considered not including this information in menus
17:28:59 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: Maybe "should" could be conveyed as more of an interop nudge
17:29:44 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: If all other vendors agree that this is a "should" and we can capture sentiment that end-users find this really valuable, then that becomes part of advocacy for interoperability--about one implementation being a bit of an outlier
17:32:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I started drafting a comment to James Craig to request clarification on his words about what appears on the screen, what doesn't appear on the screen, and what ARIA has to say about this
17:33:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I could also ask about the data behind the design of conveying this information in some circumstances but not other circumstances
17:33:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This would also be a good topic to include in the agenda for my next meeting with Vispero
17:34:39 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: We've had many discussions of this sort over the years, and the CG has historically been willing to compromise. That doesn't appear to be the case for this issue
17:36:52 <jugglinmike> Subtopic: Conflicting results  for test 6 "Request information about a menu item"
17:36:58 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/1109
17:37:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This may have been resolved already (in fact, many of these may have been resolved already), but I want to verify
17:37:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: IsaDC raised this conflict in VoiceOver testing back in August
17:37:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The conflict is between Joe's results and IsaDC's results
17:38:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The assertion for "name of the menu"
17:39:10 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: We solved it because the test plan has been marked as final. We just need to document the reason. I'll review the minutes for that meeting and then close the issue
17:39:57 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: It says "'actions menu' is in the VoiceOver cursor" but for Joe, it says "'menu' is in the VoiceOver cursor"
17:40:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We finalized this report
17:40:22 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: That's right
17:40:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay. I'm going to say this is resolved and close it
17:40:37 <jugglinmike> Topic: Testing Disclosure Navigation Menu
17:41:15 <jugglinmike> present+ Dean
17:41:25 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: We decided to run the bot and start from scratch
17:41:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Not all these issues are equivalent. Several of them had to do with the "Fn" key issue
17:43:34 <jugglinmike> Dean: Apologies. I figured out the issue with my external keyboard.
17:45:46 <jugglinmike> Dean: I had intended to this prior to today's meeting, but I got side-tracked this week due to circumstances beyond my control. I will have it done by next meeting
17:46:18 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: The bot has reported some incorrect AT responses for some tests, so please watch out for that. It isn't much--just some small details
17:46:31 <jugglinmike> Dean: Yeah, otherwise, it looks like the bot is doing a pretty good job
17:46:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Should we add any of this information on external keyboard setup in the wiki?
17:47:33 <jugglinmike> Dean: My situation might not be too weird. I'm using an Apple keyboard, after all
17:47:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If the wiki page isn't discoverable, it might not be worth the effort
17:48:29 <jugglinmike> Dean: Ah, it's right at the top of the article on how to use VoiceOver
17:49:33 <jugglinmike> Dean: https://support.apple.com/guide/voiceover/general-commands-cpvokys01/10/mac/15.0
17:49:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Do you want to review these issues to determine if they are still valid, IsaDC?
17:49:53 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Sure
17:50:44 <jugglinmike> Topic: Testing navigation menu button
17:50:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The first is issue #1136
17:51:19 <jugglinmike> subtopic: Conflicting  VoiceOver results for test 3 "Request information about a menu button"
17:51:27 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/1136
17:52:25 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: On this one, Dean is 9 out of 10 tests complete
17:52:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Are we going to take the same approach for this one as we did for the disclosure navigation menu? After disclosure is done, do you want to do the same thing?
17:53:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I ask because there are 14 conflicts between IsaDC and Dean
17:53:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Basically just start over and run the bot
17:53:22 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Sure, if Dean agrees on restarting that test plan as well
17:54:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: How many tests is this across? Test 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9... There's conflicts in basically all but 1, 2, and 6, it seems like
17:54:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That is--more than half
17:55:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It might actually be faster to wipe out the results and start over with the bot
17:56:03 <jugglinmike> Dean: I think it will be the same amount of work for me, in the end, anyway.
17:57:00 <jugglinmike> Dean: Let's just leave this one as-is and I will correct my results without the assistance of the bot
17:57:02 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Okay!
17:58:23 <jugglinmike> Topic: Testing radio group
17:58:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Vispero and Apple gave us feedback on conveying the "not selected" state
17:58:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We made these changes to the test plan based on their feedback
17:59:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The system automatically copied the results for anything that didn't change from the previous test plan version
17:59:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For JAWS, everything is complete. You could publish that report, IsaDC
18:00:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For NVDA, I'm not sure why it says "13 of 15 tests". That needs some attention. It was originally assigned to Alyssa and IsaDC
18:00:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't remember adding extra commands to this
18:00:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For VoiceOver, everything is 100% complete, so that one can be published
18:00:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Something is going on with NVDA, I'm not sure what that is. It might be a bug
18:01:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is mostly how it ought to work. If we change a test plan, and it doesn't change anything about how results are collected, then the system should just take the prior results and copy them in. It's really cool because it saves us a bunch of time
18:02:05 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
18:02:05 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, ChrisCuellar, Matt_King, mmoss, Michael_Fairchild, James_Scholes, Dean
18:02:07 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:02:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/23-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
18:02:15 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:02:15 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-at
18:02:26 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
18:02:26 <RRSAgent> I see no action items