12:40:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #apa
12:40:54 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/10/23-apa-irc
12:40:54 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:40:55 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), janina
12:41:04 <janina> Meeting: APA Weekly Teleconference
12:41:13 <janina> Date: 23 Oct 2024
12:43:16 <janina> Chair: Janina
12:43:19 <janina> agenda+ Agenda Review & Announcements
12:43:19 <janina> agenda+ TPAC 2024 Followup https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2024
12:43:19 <janina> agenda+ Task Force & Deliverables Updates
12:43:19 <janina> agenda+ [New Charters Review](https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested%22)
12:43:22 <janina> agenda+ [HR A11y Review Comment Tracker](https://w3c.github.io/horizontal-issue-tracker/?repo=w3c/a11y-review)
12:43:25 <janina> agenda+ [Issue Review Requests](https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues)
12:43:28 <janina> agenda+ [New on TR](http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html)
12:43:30 <janina> agenda+ [CSS Update (Paul)](https://github.com/w3c/css-a11y/issues)
12:43:33 <janina> agenda+ Actions check-in
12:43:35 <janina> agenda+ Other business
12:43:38 <janina> agenda+ Be done
12:56:10 <janina> Chair: Janina
13:55:01 <Fazio> Fazio has joined #apa
13:56:49 <janina> agenda?
13:57:36 <PaulG> PaulG has joined #apa
14:01:01 <PaulG> present+
14:01:07 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #apa
14:01:50 <Fazio> present+
14:01:53 <janina> regrets: Gottfried, Niklaus
14:02:01 <gautierchomel> present+
14:02:17 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino has joined #apa
14:02:24 <gpellegrino> present+
14:02:35 <gpellegrino> present+
14:02:50 <janina> regrets+ Dr_Keith
14:02:59 <matatk> matatk has joined #apa
14:03:02 <janina> regrets+ Irfan
14:03:05 <janina> present+
14:03:06 <matatk> present+
14:03:22 <Roy_Ruoxi> present+
14:03:23 <mike_beganyi> mike_beganyi has joined #apa
14:03:43 <janina> regrets+ Angela_Young
14:04:10 <janina> regrets+ Mark_Miller
14:04:13 <Roy_Ruoxi> zakim, drop item 5
14:04:13 <Zakim> agendum 5, [HR A11y Review Comment Tracker](https://w3c.github.io/horizontal-issue-tracker/?repo=w3c/a11y-review), dropped
14:04:25 <Roy_Ruoxi> zakim, drop item 7
14:04:25 <Zakim> agendum 7, [New on TR](http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html), dropped
14:04:34 <Roy_Ruoxi> agenda?
14:04:59 <mike_beganyi> scribe+
14:05:15 <Demelza> Demelza has joined #apa
14:05:42 <janina> zakim, who's here?
14:05:42 <Zakim> Present: PaulG, Fazio, gautierchomel, gpellegrino, janina, matatk, Roy_Ruoxi
14:05:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see Demelza, mike_beganyi, matatk, gpellegrino, gautierchomel, PaulG, Fazio, RRSAgent, Zakim, gb, janina, kirkwood, dmontalvo, hdv, ada, chrishtr, slightlyoff, vmpstr,
14:05:45 <Zakim> ... jyasskin, Rachael, tink, Roy_Ruoxi, jcraig, tzviya8
14:05:59 <Demelza> +present
14:06:09 <mike_beganyi> [Introductions]
14:07:31 <Fredrik> Fredrik has joined #apa
14:07:55 <Fredrik> present+
14:09:59 <NehaJ> NehaJ has joined #apa
14:10:09 <NehaJ> Present+
14:11:15 <mike_beganyi> zakim, take up item 1
14:11:15 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Announcements -- taken up [from janina]
14:12:05 <NehaJ> NehaJ has joined #apa
14:12:29 <JonCohn> JonCohn has joined #apa
14:12:39 <JonCohn> present+
14:18:04 <mike_beganyi> janina: Transition to TPAC follow-up shortly. TPAC 2025 announced. In Japan next year in November.
14:18:08 <Roy_Ruoxi> q+
14:19:05 <Roy_Ruoxi> subtopic: APA WG Recharter 2025
14:19:05 <Roy_Ruoxi> - github: https://github.com/w3c/apa/tree/charter-2025
14:19:05 <Roy_Ruoxi> - draft: https://raw.githack.com/w3c/apa/charter-2025/charter.html
14:19:12 <mike_beganyi> Roy_Ruoxi: General announcement regarding follow-up APA new charter
14:19:24 <SteveF> SteveF has joined #apa
14:19:36 <SteveF> present +
14:19:38 <mike_beganyi> ...see previous links. New drafts
14:19:49 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
14:19:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/23-apa-minutes.html matatk
14:19:59 <mike_beganyi> Roy_Ruoxi: if any issues, please submit in GitHub APA repository
14:20:29 <Fazio> Maturity Model TPAC Follow Up Note: WCAG 3 is using a lot of references to Maturity that have nothing to do with Maturity Model - I see issues with this
14:20:43 <mike_beganyi> janina: Hope to proceed with new charter in place when current one expires next year
14:21:01 <NehaJ> NehaJ has joined #apa
14:21:24 <Fazio> Maturity Model TPAC Follow Up Note: Next charter I would like to explore possible normative specifications for the Maturity Model. This could lead to incorporation with WCAG 3
14:21:36 <mike_beganyi> janina: Need to project what and when we plan to deliver before July 2027. Good for task forces to look at their own deliverables before bringing them up in this group
14:22:41 <mike_beganyi> Fazio: Will just reiterate my concerns about WCAG 3 referencing maturity which does not mean maturity model
14:23:03 <mike_beganyi> janina: Acknowledged and will work on that in future.
14:24:45 <mike_beganyi> janina: All TFs have very solid actionable next steps, which is promising. The minutes reflect that
14:24:53 <NehaJ> NehaJ has joined #apa
14:25:09 <matatk> TPAC 2024 wiki page: https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2024
14:25:19 <mike_beganyi> zakim, take up next item
14:25:19 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, mike_beganyi
14:25:24 <mike_beganyi> q?
14:25:30 <mike_beganyi> ack Roy_Ruoxi
14:25:42 <matatk> agenda?
14:25:49 <matatk> zakim, drop item 2
14:25:49 <Zakim> agendum 2, TPAC 2024 Followup https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2024, dropped
14:25:56 <mike_beganyi> zakim, take up next item
14:25:56 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Task Force & Deliverables Updates -- taken up [from janina]
14:26:31 <mike_beganyi> janina: David Fazio is almost done with Maturity Model and hopes to move into 1.0 note by end of year
14:26:50 <mike_beganyi> janina: Notes from RQTF that won't be ready until November.
14:27:13 <mike_beganyi> zakim, take up next item
14:27:13 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- [New Charters Review](https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested%22) -- taken up [from janina]
14:27:18 <Roy_Ruoxi> subtopic: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Recharter
14:27:18 <Roy_Ruoxi> - charter: https://w3c.github.io/publ-maintenance-wg-charter/
14:27:18 <Roy_Ruoxi> - issue: https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues/481
14:27:31 <mike_beganyi> Roy_Ruoxi: 1 new charter this week. See previous links
14:28:07 <mike_beganyi> Roy_Ruoxi: Noticed there are a lot of deliverables that mention European Accessibility Act and specifically EPUB
14:28:16 <NehaJ> NehaJ has joined #apa
14:28:43 <mike_beganyi> Roy_Ruoxi: They list us as liaison working group to collaborate on accessibility issues. They noticed we had a presentation on HTML work.
14:28:56 <mike_beganyi> Roy_Ruoxi: Charter looks good to me from a11y perspective
14:28:58 <matatk> +1 LGTM
14:30:15 <mike_beganyi> janina: I spoke yesterday with Charles LaPerriere about structuring a11y provisions
14:30:19 <gpellegrino> q+
14:30:34 <janina>   ~q?
14:30:41 <janina> q?
14:30:46 <janina> ack gp
14:31:09 <mike_beganyi> gpellegrino: Still discussion around it, not quite finalized. Might be worth to wait a week or two to have more stable version before deciding
14:31:58 <mike_beganyi> janina: Want to extend thanks to Gregorio and Gautier regarding fixed layout and the work that was done during TPAC. Our oversight responsibility is being conducted nicely and big thanks to you.
14:32:06 <mike_beganyi> zakim, take up next item
14:32:06 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- [Issue Review Requests](https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues) -- taken up [from janina]
14:32:21 <Roy_Ruoxi> subtopic: EPUB 3.3
14:32:21 <Roy_Ruoxi> - issue: https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues/92
14:32:21 <Roy_Ruoxi> - spec: https://www.w3.org/TR/2024/REC-epub-33-20241017/
14:33:30 <Roy_Ruoxi> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/EPUB_3.3
14:33:57 <gpellegrino> q+
14:34:03 <mike_beganyi> Roy_Ruoxi: Also from the same WG. EPUB 3.3 wants to go to CR due to changes in the document. There are four changes in their document. They asked for review from a11y perspective. Last time the document was reviewed by Janina and Fredrik.
14:34:10 <PaulG> q+
14:34:15 <janina> q?
14:34:15 <matatk> This looks like the change log: https://www.w3.org/TR/2024/REC-epub-33-20241017/#change-log
14:34:22 <janina> ack gp
14:34:39 <mike_beganyi> gpellegrino: Only changes are minor changes, errata, etc.
14:34:52 <Roy_Ruoxi> The candidate changes, with a reference to the relevant issue discussions, are:
14:34:52 <Roy_Ruoxi> https://www.w3.org/TR/2024/REC-epub-33-20241017/#change_1
14:34:52 <Roy_Ruoxi> https://www.w3.org/TR/2024/REC-epub-33-20241017/#change_2
14:34:52 <Roy_Ruoxi> https://www.w3.org/TR/2024/REC-epub-33-20241017/#change_3
14:34:52 <Roy_Ruoxi> https://www.w3.org/TR/2024/REC-epub-33-20241017/#change_4
14:35:19 <mike_beganyi> PaulG: I know we've discussed fixed layout and that is addressed in this document. Is that something that needs future revision or not likely to be reviewed?
14:35:47 <mike_beganyi> janina: During TPAC, we agreed to be clearer of the limits of what is achievable vs not with fixed layout. A more informative title would be helpful.
14:36:07 <gpellegrino> q+
14:36:17 <gautierchomel> q+
14:36:17 <mike_beganyi> PaulG: Just to be clear, EPUB community is still not amenable to addressing a programmatic way to address reading order in fixed layouts
14:37:08 <mike_beganyi> gpellegrino: I think that the new charter will be the continuation of that topic. Since these are minor tweaks to an already published document we can't introduce anything major at this point. Hoping this will be part of the new charter.
14:37:12 <gautierchomel> q-
14:37:17 <mike_beganyi> janina: Suggesting we sign off on this
14:37:21 <matatk> q+
14:37:22 <gpellegrino> q-
14:37:25 <mike_beganyi> ack PaulG
14:37:28 <mike_beganyi> ack gpellegrino
14:37:37 <matatk> ack me
14:37:41 <janina> q?
14:38:12 <mike_beganyi> matatk: Couple of things. Firstly, I'm confused why we're being asked to review if we're expecting further changes. Are we definitely expecting these? It seems that it's been labelled in such a way that it's ready for review.
14:38:36 <mike_beganyi> gpellegrino: Can't say for sure as I'm not the chair, but there is some discussion on GitHub
14:39:01 <mike_beganyi> gautierchomel: Labelled as "advanced notice sent" which indicates it's still a draft and can be quickly assessed
14:39:05 <janina> q?
14:39:24 <mike_beganyi> Roy_Ruoxi: Normally when a charter comes to us it means it's ready for horizontal review
14:39:38 <mike_beganyi> matatk: Good idea to verify the process and ensure this charter is following correct protocol.
14:40:35 <gautierchomel> q+
14:40:56 <mike_beganyi> matatk: Other concern: There are 4 issues listed here for the EPUB 3.3 spec. Shouldn't we look over them or are we saying that they're been looked at by Gautier and Gregorio and they very minor?
14:41:26 <NehaJ> NehaJ has joined #apa
14:41:35 <mike_beganyi> gpellegrino: I think it's best for someone to review. I was just mentioning that they are small changes and shouldn't take much time.
14:42:29 <mike_beganyi> mike_beganyi: Will take on action to review four issues listed above
14:42:40 <mike_beganyi> zakim, take up next item
14:42:40 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, mike_beganyi
14:42:44 <mike_beganyi> q?
14:42:44 <janina> q?
14:42:49 <gautierchomel> q-
14:42:52 <janina> ack gau
14:43:02 <mike_beganyi> zakim, take up next item
14:43:02 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- [CSS Update (Paul)](https://github.com/w3c/css-a11y/issues) -- taken up [from janina]
14:43:29 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
14:43:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/23-apa-minutes.html matatk
14:43:39 <matatk> agenda?
14:43:59 <mike_beganyi> PaulG: I reviewed the agenda from TPAC and will do my best to provide a more thorough update next week
14:44:14 <mike_beganyi> zakim, close this item
14:44:14 <Zakim> agendum 8 closed
14:44:15 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:44:15 <Zakim> 9. Actions check-in [from janina]
14:44:18 <mike_beganyi> zakim, take up next item
14:44:18 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- Actions check-in -- taken up [from janina]
14:45:16 <NehaJ> NehaJ has joined #apa
14:45:30 <mike_beganyi> matatk: First action is that the Accessibility Conformance Testing Rules format 1.1. The subgroup responsible will be meeting soon
14:46:16 <mike_beganyi> matatk: Other one we were looking at is Vibration API.
14:46:18 <matatk> subtopic: Vibration API
14:46:34 <matatk> Previous APA comment: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-apa/2016Sep/0029.html
14:47:08 <matatk> Tracking issue: https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues/87
14:48:02 <mike_beganyi> matatk: Decided last week that we would follow the new process inspired by i18n. Bring it up on the call, close it if we can, if not, make an issue that could be seen by responsible group
14:48:24 <mike_beganyi> matatk: The thing we are concerned about is ensuring that vibration can be disabled i.e. Vibration MUST be able to be disabled
14:48:30 <NehaJ> NehaJ has joined #apa
14:48:52 <PaulG> q+
14:49:04 <mike_beganyi> matatk: Initially in 2016 indicated that a user SHOULD be able to disable it but now MUST is recommended
14:50:14 <Fazio> Is should ever a relevant request? It has no weight
14:51:11 <matatk> q+
14:51:17 <SteveF> +1 tp PaulG
14:51:17 <matatk> ack PaulG
14:51:24 <mike_beganyi> PaulG: I was the one fighting for MUST last time we talked about it. However, the ability to customize vibration should be within the user's control. If the device can provide variation in that haptic feedback, then it can be a softer must. If the device does not offer customization on haptics, then a stronger MUST must be used
14:52:40 <Fazio> I feel like we should never make requests through terms like should, because they're non-committal
14:52:50 <mike_beganyi> matatk: My understanding of your concern Paul is for the user to be able to determine which app the haptics is coming from. My personal concern is that we're getting some views that some users with motor control issues or sensitivities, they may just not be able to cope with that type of haptic feedback.
14:53:12 <mike_beganyi> matatk: The action for me from last week still stands with some information as to why we've changed our view
14:53:37 <mike_beganyi> PaulG: Can we add a SHOULD? Ability to map haptic patterns SHOULD be implemented?
14:53:59 <mike_beganyi> matatk: I think it comes under Devices and Sensors. It could be brought to their attention as a separate issue
14:54:00 <Fazio> Fazio has joined #apa
14:54:17 <mike_beganyi> matatk: Sounds like two issues for me to propose.
14:54:33 <mike_beganyi> PaulG: You can tag me on it Matthew.
14:55:14 <mike_beganyi> matatk: Want to acknowledge that David Fazio spoke to SHOULD and it's indefinite implication.
14:55:28 <SteveF> https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt
14:55:52 <janina> q+
14:56:03 <matatk> ack me
14:56:06 <mike_beganyi> matatk: We have specific definitions and it's fair to say that we can move to a change in language given the nature of device changes in recent years
14:56:27 <mike_beganyi> janina: I think we can tell them that we are inclined to ask for MUST whereas 8 years ago we were happy with SHOULD and ask if that creates a problem for them.
14:56:36 <mike_beganyi> ack janina
14:57:10 <mike_beganyi> zakim, close this item
14:57:10 <Zakim> agendum 9 closed
14:57:11 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:57:11 <Zakim> 10. Other business [from janina]
14:57:32 <mike_beganyi> rrsagent, make minutes
14:57:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/23-apa-minutes.html mike_beganyi
14:57:48 <mike_beganyi> zakim, end meeting
14:57:48 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been PaulG, Fazio, gautierchomel, gpellegrino, janina, matatk, Roy_Ruoxi, present, Fredrik, NehaJ, JonCohn
14:57:50 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:57:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/23-apa-minutes.html Zakim
14:57:58 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, mike_beganyi; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
14:57:58 <Zakim> Zakim has left #APA
15:07:24 <janina> rrsagent, bye
15:07:24 <RRSAgent> I see no action items