16:51:53 RRSAgent has joined #aria 16:51:57 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/10/17-aria-irc 16:51:57 RRSAgent, make logs Public 16:51:58 Meeting: ARIA WG 16:52:05 agendabot, find agenda 16:52:05 jamesn, OK. This may take a minute... 16:52:05 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b57854a-65cb-421e-b9e0-f9a8da31f160/20241017T130000/ 16:52:05 clear agenda 16:52:05 agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/ymt6twbt 16:52:06 agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/ysnmfmuc 16:52:08 agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y 16:52:11 agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates 16:52:13 agenda+ -> Draft Charter for ARIA Working Group https://w3c.github.io/charter-drafts/2024/aria-charter.html 16:52:16 agenda+ -> Feature: Braille only regions for student testing https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2352 16:52:19 agenda+ -> Evaluate whether use case needs a new ARIA feature — a way to define page-wide keyboard shortcuts https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2351 16:52:23 agenda+ -> 9.3 Presentational Roles Conflict Resolution does not consider custom element use cases https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2303 16:52:26 agenda+ -> Inconsistent author/ua restrictions for columnheader / rowheader https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2348 16:52:29 agenda+ -> Inconsistency in allowed uses of placeholder and aria-placeholder https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2347 16:52:32 agenda+ -> Addition: selectedoption element https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2344 16:52:35 agenda+ -> add mapping for html focusgroup attribute https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/565 16:52:38 agenda+ -> Stop automatically exposing details relation for figure -> figcaption https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/564 16:58:34 spectranaut_ has joined #aria 16:59:07 filippo-zorzi has joined #aria 16:59:28 agenda? 17:00:24 present+ 17:01:32 scott has joined #aria 17:01:32 scribenick: hdv 17:01:36 Adam_Page has joined #aria 17:02:00 ZakK has joined #aria 17:02:12 giacomo-petri has joined #aria 17:02:16 present+ 17:02:16 present+ 17:02:26 Brett-Lewis has joined #aria 17:02:35 Zakim, take up next] 17:02:35 I don't understand 'take up next]', hdv 17:02:37 Zakim, take up next 17:02:37 agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/ymt6twbt -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:02:41 present+ 17:02:41 present+ 17:02:48 present+ 17:02:48 katez has joined #aria 17:02:50 present+ 17:03:03 alisonmaher has joined #aria 17:03:06 jamesn: the first item is about #2365, is Aaron on the call? 17:03:10 present+ 17:03:37 keithamus: did we discuss this last week? 17:03:48 jamesn: this one's 2 days old but maybe something related? 17:03:49 sarah has joined #aria 17:03:57 present+ 17:04:07 spectranaut_: is it re a math role? 17:04:25 Brett-Lewis: currently only way for us to get mathml out of the web page is using innerHTML 17:04:28 BGaraventa has joined #aria 17:05:16 present+ BGaraventa 17:05:22 aaron: I think there's nothing controversial about this… it's about making this available more easily 17:05:27 jamesn: does it need something in the AAM? 17:05:31 aaron: yes 17:05:37 jamesn: who wants to do that? 17:05:45 present+ Daniel 17:05:50 jamesn: probably not for the MathML-AAM? 17:06:02 aaron: probably not, probably in core AAM and HTML AAM 17:06:25 jamesn: did we concluse role=math was pointless, I think it wouldn't do anything useful? 17:06:30 aaron: should we deprecate it? 17:06:37 aaron: I don't know how the math of this gets to the AT 17:06:40 present+ 17:06:41 siri has joined #aria 17:06:50 jamesn: may be a separate convo from this issue 17:06:58 Present+ 17:07:03 jamesn: Aaron, could you check with this issue what needs to be done? 17:07:17 aaron: ok 17:07:23 present+ 17:07:35 aaron: can assign to me 17:07:44 Zakim, take up next please 17:07:44 agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/ysnmfmuc -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:08:02 keithamus: I have some context on this 17:08:03 StefanS has joined #aria 17:08:11 keithamus: we're looking for input type color to allow for P3 colour spacs 17:08:14 s/spacs/spaces 17:08:19 present+ 17:08:25 keithamus: not entirely sure if this has anything to do with ARIA? 17:08:35 jamesn: naive question, does anyone use input type=color ? 17:08:42 keithamus: not really but I guess enough?\ 17:09:24 scott: I think the question is…if HTML AAM gets more involved in this, outside of providing recommendations for accessible names for the pickers… unless changing away from using operating system picker and reimplementing everything, we could arguably provide recommendations on what the Shadow DOM of this control would be 17:09:34 scott: outside of that, not sure what is really necessary here 17:09:52 keithamus: there is a separate topic around the form styling topic, will probably happen but not for a long while 17:10:21 keithamus: this is a small change in terms of HTML, but still using the native pickers, as far as I understand. I just changes the colour space, which would change the picker too 17:10:35 keithamus: might be same kind of picker, but might look a bit different as it has different colours 17:10:53 jamesn: does anyone understand this enough to know what we need to do with it 17:11:23 sarah: it seems like there is nothing that is specified in the AAMs that would be affected 17:11:35 scott: if he is looking for additional stuff it is probably beyond the scope of what HTML AAM typically provides 17:11:44 jamesn: can one of you can write a comment back to Anne? 17:11:49 q+ 17:12:11 keithamus: probably a case of Anne saying… is there anything we need to add? And I guess our response is probably no? 17:12:33 Rahim: I think from what he shared internally… ultimate question was how the colours should be announced by AT? 17:12:43 Rahim: in which colour is the P3 colour spce 17:12:46 s/spce/space 17:13:04 keithamus: for most things it has a role description of colour picker, I think this doesnt change, it's the same colours, or maybe an alpha channel 17:13:18 scott: still not sure if it is the place for HTML AAM to show how native pickers work 17:13:24 jamesn: how they work or don't work 17:13:49 keithamus: most sophisticated seems to be IA 2 which has a role color chooser but nothing beyond that, nothing more specific 17:14:11 scott: if you start it off, keithamus, I'll chime in 17:14:14 Zaki, take up next please 17:14:15 ack Rahim 17:14:19 Zakim, take up next please 17:14:19 agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:14:56 jamesn: re 2354, do we need reviewers? 17:15:00 keithamus: yes please 17:15:13 aaron: I can do it 17:15:18 sarah: you can add me too if you want 17:15:29 keithamus: TLDR: it's pretty much popover, copy and pasted 17:16:18 Zakim, take up next please 17:16:18 agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:16:42 jamesn: there are three issues on the deep dive planning list, would anyone propose a deep dive on any of these in the next few weeks 17:17:00 jamesn: tables without table headers, dashboards with tandalone cards and whitespace from accessible name/description 17:17:15 StefanS: the cards one sounds interesting to us 17:17:25 jamesn: do you want to facilitate one? 17:17:40 StefanS: we have a lot of cards…  17:17:57 jamesn: we need a way/proposal forward in the spec too, then try and get agreement on that 17:18:15 sarah: I have some things to write up about interactive lists after TPAC… it's related but not ready for deep dive 17:18:26 jamesn: once it's ready can you add it? 17:18:37 Zakim, take up next please 17:18:37 agendum 5 -- -> Draft Charter for ARIA Working Group https://w3c.github.io/charter-drafts/2024/aria-charter.html -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:18:55 -> https://www.w3.org/2025/01/aria-charter.html -> Proposed ARIA Charter 17:18:55 -> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/aria-2025-charter-review/ AC Questionnaire for ARIA re-Charter 17:18:56 jamesn: can people please take a look over it? 17:19:18 dmontalvo: we're a step forward now, the charter was discussed in June, then it went through horizontal review and it's now available for AC review 17:19:40 dmontalvo: I would propose for everyone to talk to your AC reps so that they can support us 17:19:53 dmontalvo: the change is really just wording like we discussed in June, nothing significant has changed 17:20:15 dmontalvo: if AC reps could review this they can support it 17:20:21 jamesn: I didn't see the questionnaire yet 17:20:46 dmontalvo: its open as of this morning, I've just shared it in the minutes too 17:20:56 jamesn: thank you Daniel 17:21:12 q? 17:21:48 jcraig: in the ARIA section in the deliverables, I was surprised to see first public of ARIA, does that refer to the living recommendation? 17:21:55 dmontalvo: yes this is why it's listed there 17:22:06 jcraig: we'll take the versions of, when it becomes an approved evergreen 17:22:20 s/evergreen/evergreen, right? 17:22:43 dmontalvo: we probably won't see all specs go everygreen… but some will as it fits many of the specs, but we'll also submit specs for recommendation as well 17:23:22 mario: some of the sames of the living recommendations have a number in their name, I'm not sure why, feels like there shouldn't be one? 17:23:28 mario: for example 1.2 living recommendation? 17:23:32 mario: I think that's an error 17:23:43 jamescraig: not in the charter though 17:23:50 s/jamescraig/jcraig 17:24:13 jamesn: I agree we should probably remove the version numberes eventually, hesitate to do that now as some of the specs in there are in the process already 17:24:24 some of these having been living standards with version numbers for quite some time 17:24:45 Francis_Storr has joined #aria 17:24:51 present+ 17:25:00 dmontalvo: folks could also approve the charter but then make suggestions 17:25:32 jamesn: can the name change once it is a living standards? probably… I would say not worry about it now… because people might go back and think the one with the number must be the latest one 17:25:44 jamesn: if we have ARIA without version number and also 1.3 that would be confusing 17:26:04 dmontalvo: would also be an issue for the spec's shortname in the TR docs 17:26:50 jcraig: one more procedural question… in the graphics module and the graphics a11y mappings… they are the only ones that are not living, is there a reason or should they be? 17:27:17 jamesn: I expect it is unlikely for many changes to happen to them once they are ready 17:27:27 jcraig: it's possible they may get changes due to the testability stuff 17:27:39 jamesn: I think it's fine… they're recommendations now though? 17:27:48 jcraig: ok can leave them, don't need to change the charter 17:28:09 jamesn: we probably didn't think about them too much as they are IMO least important of the work in this charter 17:28:12 jcraig: would agree 17:28:18 Zakim, take up next item please 17:28:18 agendum 6 -- -> Feature: Braille only regions for student testing https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2352 -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:29:23 aaron: I invited Brett Lewis from JAWS to the meeting today… we realise we don't expose everything through Chrome in Windows… it comes at a cost because of the architecture, so we'd like to get rid of it and only expose as @@@ 17:29:51 aaron: to get rid of the iSimpleDOMNode we need to find a way to support that AT vendors opened as real use cases in their software 17:30:16 aaron: it's so that students can show they can the words, if the TTS would read it to students it would basically be cheating 17:30:29 aaron: so they'd put it in a large region for it to 'this should only be read in braille' 17:30:41 Brett-Lewis: some of the idea is… reading in braille is analagous to reading 17:30:49 Brett-Lewis: they needed the ability to only make it available in braille 17:30:57 q+ 17:31:08 Brett-Lewis: we've had thsi around for the last 8-9 years 17:31:12 s/thsi/this 17:31:31 aaron: I don't like adding new things to the ARIA spec, but would like JAWS and others to be fully standards compliant, and not add it as a backdoor 17:31:41 ack jc 17:31:41 aaron: because it sounds so specific, probably not much reason to abuse it 17:31:51 jcraig: was trying to think of ways to make it work with existing reasons 17:32:04 jcraig: there isn't a good way to translate from the braille in Unicode probably 17:32:09 q+ 17:32:28 jcraig: we wouldn't want that speech get in the way of them reading, but it does mask the value of what that braille is representing 17:32:51 jcraig: so… is there some variant of this… we have braille label and braille role description 17:32:52 ack me 17:33:12 jcraig: you're trying to render it on screen, because you want a sighted braille user to read it 17:33:27 Brett-Lewis: just that you have a text doc on screen and the braille reader to only access it as braille 17:33:36 Brett-Lewis: otherwise screenreader user would not be able to support different modes of braille 17:33:42 Brett-Lewis: eg grade 1 or grade 2 braille 17:33:54 jcraig: so you want the user's braille prefs to still work, but no speech 17:34:00 jamesn: why wouldn't label work for that? 17:34:27 aaron: this may have bold face or rich text… we're saying this whole region is braille 17:34:37 jcraig: almost like you need a braile contents kind of thing 17:34:57 Brett-Lewis: the real advantage of braille only reason is that you could see exactly what the braille user would get with their ability to have braille prefs respected 17:35:10 jcraig: a lot of braille readers aren't completely blind, doesn't this still allow the cheating? 17:35:34 Brett-Lewis: it's not about testing fluency in braille… it's testing the ability of reading, distinct from hearing audio, whether that's braille or text 17:35:45 aaron: it matters enough that four testing orgs agreed they needed it 17:36:00 jamesn: from my understanding if we want to add this new feature, we would need at least two AT say they need to support it 17:36:10 Brett-Lewis: I know JAWS would, not sure about NVDA 17:36:29 jamesn: ok so we need one other than JAWS and then commitment from at least two browsers that they want to support thsi 17:36:33 s/thsi/this 17:36:47 jcraig: should it say ETS? 17:36:48 Brett-Lewis: yes 17:37:00 s/it/the issue 17:37:07 s/ETS/ETS instead of ATS 17:37:32 jamesn: can we get any of the testing companies to put in a use case to make sure we're solving what they really want rather than what they think they need? 17:38:00 jcraig: doesn't have to be super long but a gist or wiki page that lists out the use cases and why the existing technologies don't solve the need 17:38:41 qv? 17:38:43 Zakim, take up next item please 17:38:43 agendum 7 -- -> Evaluate whether use case needs a new ARIA feature — a way to define page-wide keyboard shortcuts https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2351 -- taken up [from 17:38:46 ... agendabot] 17:39:09 jamesn: there's already been a bunch of discussion on that 17:39:24 StefanS: it's basically a discussion in disguise re what's the best way to do shortcuts for all users? 17:39:45 StefanS: there are best practices for that, like F1 17:40:05 StefanS: what's missing a bit… to clarify what is the best technique to make this work for all users, not just screenreader users? 17:40:13 aaron: also worth deciding whether we want to do something at all 17:40:26 aaron: might be good to have Brett describe how this is done in JAWS 17:40:48 Brett-Lewis: what we worked out… Facebook doesn't use it anymore, but Twitter does…  17:40:52 aaron: it's still on Facebook 17:41:23 Brett-Lewis: there's essentially this JSON object… the reason we as a screenreader wanted it, is because sites have these single letter shortcuts, that the screenreader uses for quick navigation on a web page quite often 17:41:35 Brett-Lewis: eg J and K let you move to next and previous tweet 17:41:45 Brett-Lewis: if in JAWS you don't let them pass through to the web page they are used for the application itself 17:42:14 Brett-Lewis: what we do when we see the page loads, we see this object is available and know that the web page wants to use these keys and let them pass through instead of the JAWS shortcuts 17:42:24 q+ 17:42:56 Brett-Lewis: it's not the same kind of use case as F1… we need a way to have the short cut keys that are in use of the page, as some kind of structure, like right now it is a JSON object 17:43:03 q? 17:43:07 q+ 17:43:09 Brett-Lewis: this also provides a nice way for us to give an overview of what the available shortcuts are 17:43:21 Brett-Lewis: could be done in another way too, completely agree 17:43:24 q? 17:43:29 ack me 17:43:30 ack james 17:43:38 q+ 17:43:46 jamesn: wanted to ask Brett… is there a way for the user to override that override? 17:43:47 aaronlev has joined #aria 17:43:53 q+ 17:43:53 Brett-Lewis: there is, don't remember the exact keystroke 17:44:03 jamesn: would the user be aware of the exact keystroke? 17:44:14 Brett-Lewis: if it's discoverable, that's a harder question,we try 17:44:26 q+ to suggest this should be a general web feature (OpenUI?) and mention this is more common a Windows SR problem. 17:44:27 ack jc 17:44:27 jcraig, you wanted to suggest this should be a general web feature (OpenUI?) and mention this is more common a Windows SR problem. 17:44:31 Brett-Lewis: there's a setting in JAWS that says I don't want to honour that website's reserved keystrokes 17:44:39 Brett-Lewis: eg I only want my own 17:44:54 jcraig: by default, VoiceOver doesn't intercept keystrokes 17:45:07 jcraig: this is coming from the need of the Windows specific screenreader 17:45:17 jcraig: but this feels like a feature that could benefit from broader adoption 17:45:34 jcraig: to have a registry of keyboard shortcuts that are used in the web page solved a lot of different problems, incl i18n 17:45:53 q? 17:45:54 jcraig: it's also in a lot of the Google Suite… it only works because Google localises the shortcuts 17:46:07 jcraig: eg on the French keyboard you have to hit Shift to type a number 17:46:12 q+ 17:46:15 jcraig: there's a lot of benefit beyond what we would shoehorn into ARIA 17:46:23 q+ to say that not everyone in a locale uses their local keyboard ;) 17:46:37 jcraig: maybe the existing shortcut feature could give us enough 17:46:44 ack StefanS 17:46:55 StefanS: I second you jcraig, but I want to have the format in a way that all users could benefit 17:47:24 ack aa 17:47:25 q- 17:47:27 StefanS: JSON could work but would need to be a standardised JSON object so that other tools can hook into it 17:47:32 scott has joined #aria 17:47:43 aaron: I asked NVAccess aboutit and they said they'd announce the shortcut, but they don't do the passing through 17:47:56 q+ 17:47:57 aaron: I know Matt King didn't really like the way that works 17:48:10 aaron: isn't the easiest way to do this is an aria description 17:48:22 aaron: if only JAWS is going to consume the object property it's not worth it 17:48:29 ack keithamus 17:48:33 aaron: I do hear there's potential for some kind of feature 17:48:49 Was this the problem accesskey was trying to solve? 17:48:55 ack jamesn 17:48:55 jamesn, you wanted to say that not everyone in a locale uses their local keyboard ;) 17:49:05 keithamus: was discussing this kind of feature with Anne… I do think it should be embedded in HTML, a lot of things to get right though… might want to pop to the WHATWG if we want this 17:49:16 jamesn: not everyone in a locale uses their local keyboard 17:49:59 jamesn: I do agree it can solve problems beyond screenreaders, eg if voice recognition that certain keys work in the web app they can make sure not to interfere with it 17:50:01 ack scott 17:50:21 scott: definitely seems like if this were to be an ARIA feature I would want it specifically carved out what this feature does for AT 17:50:25 q+ 17:50:43 scott: if it's just 'here's all the keyboard commands' that seems like a wider use case… what's the specific benefit for AT of that information 17:50:47 q+ 17:50:52 scott: eg special behaviour that certain keys have 17:51:02 q+ to mention SC and AK 17:51:09 agenda? 17:51:18 ack keithamus 17:51:36 keithamus: I strongly think this should be a feature that should exist in HTML, it goes beyond HTML 17:51:48 keithamus: and the fallout of that being in HTML should probably something that does something in ARIA 17:51:48 ack jcraig 17:51:48 jcraig, you wanted to mention SC and AK 17:52:40 jcraig: an example of how this could be used in another AT … not just what the commands are but also what they are tied to is a useful feature… eg we could have a button for posting mail or whatever you want to call it 17:53:07 jcraig: HTML has some functionality that Opera used to support, a meta rel , that would render a toolbar 17:53:11 q+ 17:53:21 ack me 17:53:21 q+ just to say an html feature would need a champion to get it through the process 17:53:21 jcraig: can definitely see this useful outside the screenreader use case 17:53:41 jamesn: could feed into the work that Lisa was doing? 17:53:48 jcraig: could also tie into aria actions 17:53:57 q- just 17:53:58 jamesn: who is going to take this to Open UI? 17:53:59 keithamus: I'll do that 17:54:18 q+ 17:54:33 agenda? 17:54:35 q+ 17:54:54 Rahim: would the accesskey be a way to do this? 17:55:10 keithamus: problem with accesskey is that modifiers are not just OS independent but also web browser indepedent 17:55:25 keithamus: there's no way sites can reason about that, and also no way to allow that, would be a finger printing issue 17:55:29 s/indepedent/independent 17:55:56 keithamus: OSes don't want to yield the modifier info to the browser… and even if that they did it is really hard to figure out the OS 17:56:24 q+ 17:56:26 jcraig: we once looked at are there any keys that are available that aren't used by some application somewhere? answer was no… some are even used by specific locale's keyboards 17:56:33 jcraig: it's a big localisation and locale mess 17:56:42 zakim, close the queue 17:56:42 ok, jamesn, the speaker queue is closed 17:57:18 keithamus: there's also a semiotic vs ergonomic … we use WASD in computer games because it's conveniently located… but for productivity apps the keys are often semiotic, eg p for print 17:57:20 ack keithamus 17:57:32 ack Rahim 17:58:29 Brett-Lewis: just wanted to say… I think this is becoming a much more important consideration… have seen so many applications that assign single letter shortcut keys, eg YouTube, Gmail… goes on and on… becomes a more cumbersome experience for a screenreader to use… I don't have a preference for how it gets handled, but the longer we wait the longer we need the workarounds we've used for the last 8 years 17:58:36 Brett-Lewis: in other words, it's an important feature, I hope we can move it forward 17:58:47 jamesn: I think the first step is to take it to Open UI and see where the progress goes from there 17:58:53 Brett-Lewis: makes sense 17:59:19 jcraig: most of the shortcuts aren't discoverable for sighted users either… took me years to find out c is for compose in Gmail 17:59:53 jcraig: can take years for standards to make, or undo previous mistakes 18:00:20 jamesn: I think we all agree this is important… don't think ARIA necessarily going to have all of this functionality, probably a subset of it 18:00:28 jamesn: thanks everyone! 18:00:48 present+ 18:00:54 Zakim, end meeting please 18:00:54 As of this point the attendees have been Rahim, giacomo-petri, ZakK, smockle, Adam_Page, keithamus, katez, alisonmaher, sarah, BGaraventa, Daniel, filippo-zorzi, siri, hdv, 18:00:57 ... StefanS, Francis_Storr 18:00:57 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 18:00:58 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/17-aria-minutes.html Zakim 18:01:05 I am happy to have been of service, hdv; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 18:01:05 Zakim has left #aria 18:36:26 Francis_Storr has joined #aria 19:10:51 ChrisCuellar has joined #aria 19:34:06 Francis_Storr has joined #aria 20:08:59 ChrisCuellar has joined #aria 21:19:09 Francis_Storr has joined #aria 23:49:08 Francis_Storr has joined #aria