IRC log of pointerevents on 2024-10-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:54:51 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #pointerevents
14:54:55 [RRSAgent]: logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/10/09-pointerevents-irc
14:55:35 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Meeting: PEWG
14:55:48 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Chair: Patrick H. Lauke
14:55:56 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/66591f6b-6694-4f90-b23d-bf8f1b9dda8a/20241009T110000/
14:56:00 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Scribe: Patrick H. Lauke
14:56:07 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: ScribeNick: Patrick_H_Lauke
14:56:11 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: present+
15:00:48 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: present+ Olga
15:01:49 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: present+ mustaq
15:01:54 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: present+ smaug
15:02:33 [adettenb]: adettenb has joined #pointerevents
15:02:43 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: present+ adettenb
15:05:07 [flackr]: present+
15:06:45 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: [quick round of introductions for the benefit of Olga and Adam, new WG members joining us from Microsoft]
15:08:32 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: TOPIC: Limit the precision of floating point event fields https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/517
15:10:27 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Rob: meant to write something up, but as mentioned in previous meeting: location should be at least pixel level; and we need to be careful about potential banding if we artificially limited precision that would then lead to jumps (e.g. pressure)
15:11:48 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: ACTION: continue iterating, Rob to write up a few thoughts on the issue
15:12:06 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: TOPIC: Ensure predicted events only use input from the current partition https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/518
15:14:28 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Patrick: i promised that i'd monkey-patch this to at least make it clear what we mean by "past" (i.e. the preceding points of the current gesture/interaction, not "when the user last visited this a few days ago"). suggest i'll do this for next meeting, then we have something to expand further
15:14:53 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Rob: also limit it specifically to "current webpage" or similar, be very specific, to make it clear devs won't have more access to things than they should
15:15:03 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: ACTION: Patrick to make first pass PR to clarify
15:15:20 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: TOPIC: [PointerEvent algorithms] Order of boundary events https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/519
15:16:45 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: mustaq: UI events spec wants to become more algorithmic, and that showed up a few discrepancies with our own handling. this was before TPAC. but at TPAC it was decided that UI events will handle mouse events (?)
15:17:09 [mustaq]: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/wmpUV7lT/
15:18:05 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: https://www.w3.org/2024/09/WebAppsWG-TPAC2024-Meetings-Minutes.pdf
15:18:27 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: mustaq: there are four of these algorithm issues altogether. they're more longer-term. not for Level 3
15:18:45 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Olli: agree this is more for Level 4, Next ... post Level 3
15:19:00 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Rob: we have clear direction, we just need to make sure it's all handled consistently
15:19:19 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Adam: is it that mouse events currently are getting turned into pointer events, for enter/leave...
15:19:45 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: mustaq: not a problem of event per se, but which spec specifies the behavior
15:20:08 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Rob: developers won't see any difference. it's just which order, which timing, events are being fired
15:20:53 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: TOPIC: [touch actions] handwriting manipulation type to distinguish panning https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/516
15:21:28 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Adam: in short, we need a way to separate handwriting from scrolling behavior
15:21:53 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Adam: e.g. an app adds a toggle to explicitly switch between handwriting and regular pointing device for their stylus
15:22:23 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Adam: one proposal was to do this as an attribute in HTML. another idea was to piggy-back on touch-action as a new value to differentiate between handwriting and panning
15:23:08 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Adam: no way currently to allow granular control
15:23:44 [mustaq]: https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/203
15:23:58 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Rob: the way we built stylus on android is that handwriting is equivalent to scrolling (?)
15:24:34 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Rob: not sure if 203 is same issue. when you put stylus down, you CAN pan, you CAN write, nothing for author to stop one or the other
15:25:03 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Adam: you can only limit pan to one direction, but not completely suppress pan AND allow handwriting
15:25:45 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Rob: pan and manipulation might disable handwriting
15:26:50 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Rob: problem is that touch action is applied as a bitmask down the tree ... if the parent limits to just panning, for instance, it would then disable handwriting further down
15:27:29 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Olga: so we won't be able to enable handwriting on a child if parent has limited to just pan
15:27:46 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Rob: if we don't include handwriting as a concept as part of pan
15:28:16 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Olga: as Adam pointed out, this might be more a problem for older pages, but not for new ones
15:28:42 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Adam: yes, new ones may already take that into account. so adding a new value for handwriting to touch-action sounds like the way to go
15:29:17 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Rob: might be worth also thinking about other actions like text selection
15:29:45 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Adam: should it be included in the manipulation set?
15:29:56 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: mustaq: in Chrome manipulation is pan and zoom
15:30:05 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Rob: i think it should probably be in manipulation
15:31:02 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Rob: we should have some other property to determine whether you want ... how you want to treat these devices, but maybe touch-action is sufficient. in other issue (512) i talk about how we might want to allow mice to pan. that's more a "how to treat this device"
15:31:49 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Olga: in future it could allow handwriting with mouse (in ref to 512)
15:33:03 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: mustaq: in reference to 203, that was a wider idea of moving away from touch-action to a few more specific properties
15:33:41 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Olli: is there a situation where you'd also want different pointers/styli to behave differently?
15:34:48 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Adam: some styluses support things like a toggle/switch to trigger different behaviors, stylus with eraser. not sure what that would look like
15:39:01 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Olga: to be clear, we just want to allow author to specify that they want to allow handwriting with a pointer (stylus, finger) rather than interpreting it as a pan (?)
15:39:38 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: mustaq: what to do when a device doesn't support handwriting? should it fall back to then allowing pan?
15:41:32 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: mustaq: what i imagine is a page with lots of inputs, and you want to allow an author to say "for touch, just pan; for pen, make it do handwriting"
15:42:08 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Adam: would be good to allow both, but have handwriting take precedence. Would be useful to allow defining different behaviors for different pointer types too
15:42:12 [mustaq]: https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/203#issuecomment-299578767
15:42:46 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: mustaq: there's no consensus there, but the issue there mentions this idea of making it more granular / per pointer type
15:42:57 [mustaq]: pointer-action: touch(pan-y), pen(none);
15:48:17 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: ACTION: iterate further on the issue https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/516 - Adam to flesh out further thoughts/ideas (also in light of 203)
15:48:35 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: TOPIC: Coalesced and predicted event attributes within an untrusted event https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/514
15:50:18 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: mustaq: my concern was that authors may trust the trusted bit too much, even though the list comes from an untrusted event...
15:50:35 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: ACTION: mustaq to propose a PR with clarification, Olli to review
15:50:51 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: TOPIC: Ambiguity of the value of the button property for the click event https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/513
15:51:37 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Olli: ...in this case click needs to follow UI events
15:51:57 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: mustaq: the special case i proposed will be breaking...
15:52:08 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: Olli: we can't change behaviour, just need to clarify it
15:52:44 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: ACTION: Patrick to attempt first PR to clarify/document this
15:52:51 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: TOPIC: Triage unlabelled issues https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues
15:54:42 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: TOPIC: Meta-issue: update WPT to cover Pointer Events Level 3 #445 https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/445
15:55:27 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: mustaq: think we only have one left at this point. Rob landed it, but it was reverted.
15:55:52 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/pull/300
15:56:20 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: ACTION: Rob to review his WPT (and why it might have been reverted)
15:59:09 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
15:59:15 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: RRSAgent, generate minutes
15:59:16 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/09-pointerevents-minutes.html Patrick_H_Lauke
16:09:20 [Patrick_H_Lauke]: RRSAgent, bye
16:09:20 [RRSAgent]: I see 6 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2024/10/09-pointerevents-actions.rdf :
16:09:20 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: continue iterating, Rob to write up a few thoughts on the issue [1]
16:09:20 [RRSAgent]: recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/10/09-pointerevents-irc#T15-11-48
16:09:20 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Patrick to make first pass PR to clarify [2]
16:09:20 [RRSAgent]: recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/10/09-pointerevents-irc#T15-15-03
16:09:20 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: iterate further on the issue https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/516 - Adam to flesh out further thoughts/ideas (also in light of 203) [3]
16:09:20 [RRSAgent]: recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/10/09-pointerevents-irc#T15-48-17
16:09:20 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: mustaq to propose a PR with clarification, Olli to review [4]
16:09:20 [RRSAgent]: recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/10/09-pointerevents-irc#T15-50-35
16:09:20 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Patrick to attempt first PR to clarify/document this [5]
16:09:20 [RRSAgent]: recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/10/09-pointerevents-irc#T15-52-44
16:09:20 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Rob to review his WPT (and why it might have been reverted) [6]
16:09:20 [RRSAgent]: recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/10/09-pointerevents-irc#T15-56-20