12:58:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
12:58:20 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/10/09-matf-irc
12:58:20 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:58:21 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
12:58:25 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF October 9, 2024
12:58:25 <Zakim> got it, JJ
12:58:32 <JJ> Meeting: MATF October 9, 2024
12:58:38 <JJ> present+
12:58:43 <JJ> agenda+ 2.5.8 Target Size (Minimum)
12:58:51 <JJ> agenda- 1
12:58:51 <Joe_Humbert> present+
12:59:00 <JJ> agenda+ View subgroup
12:59:06 <JJ> agenda+ 2.5.8 Target Size (Minimum)
12:59:18 <JJ> agenda+ 3.2.1 On Focus
12:59:22 <AlainVagner> AlainVagner has joined #matf
12:59:24 <JJ> agenda+ 3.2.2 On Input
12:59:26 <AlainVagner> present+
12:59:32 <JJ> zakim, agenda?
12:59:32 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
12:59:33 <Zakim> 2. View subgroup [from JJ]
12:59:33 <Zakim> 3. 2.5.8 Target Size (Minimum) [from JJ]
12:59:33 <Zakim> 4. 3.2.1 On Focus [from JJ]
12:59:33 <Zakim> 5. 3.2.2 On Input [from JJ]
13:01:25 <julianmka> julianmka has joined #MATF
13:01:41 <julianmka> present+
13:02:13 <GleidsonRamos> GleidsonRamos has joined #matf
13:02:16 <AlainVagner> q+
13:02:19 <Detlev> present+
13:02:42 <AlainVagner> q-
13:02:58 <AlainVagner> https://nldesignsystem.nl/events/design-systems-week-2024/en/program
13:03:33 <Detlev> I can scribe today
13:03:44 <Joe_Humbert> https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3674967
13:03:51 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:03:52 <Detlev> scribe: Detlev
13:04:02 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:04:18 <Carolina> Carolina has joined #MATF
13:04:23 <Carolina> present +
13:04:31 <Detlev> Joe: article on list: Apple does research on automated a11y report generation
13:04:31 <jeroen> present+
13:05:02 <Detlev> ...maybe the will improve the a11y of their own tool as well ;)
13:05:31 <Detlev> JJ: indicating extending checks to several screens
13:05:46 <Detlev> ... leverage AI Computer Vision
13:06:13 <Detlev> Joe: why do they use AI to identify objects rather than accessing the code?
13:06:26 <Detlev> ...code is more accurate
13:06:48 <Detlev> JJ: using private APIs, iphone sharing (mirror on Mac)
13:07:02 <Karla> Karla has joined #matf
13:07:10 <Detlev> ...not yet available in EU maybe due to privacy issues
13:07:25 <Karla> present+
13:07:53 <Detlev> EU with regulations may open up iOS a bit more
13:08:21 <JJ> q?
13:08:26 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:08:26 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- View subgroup -- taken up [from JJ]
13:08:41 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
13:08:52 <Jamie> present+
13:09:14 <Detlev> JJ: forwarded Email with invitation of AGWG for the View subgroup (result of talk at TPAC about definition of view)
13:09:36 <Detlev> ...what does it mean in context of web page, Apps, mobile apps
13:09:43 <Detlev> ...may be used in WCAG 3
13:10:01 <Detlev> ...if interested please fill in survey w available meeting times
13:10:14 <Jamie> q+
13:10:17 <Detlev> ...questions?
13:10:19 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:11:00 <Detlev> Jamie: How much commitment - what is the time line - how long is it going to take compare what we do here?
13:11:16 <Detlev> JJ: not sure - timeline will be defined in subgroup
13:11:54 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:11:54 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 2.5.8 Target Size (Minimum) -- taken up [from JJ]
13:13:35 <Detlev> JJ: first discussion was 1 May 2024
13:13:53 <Detlev> JJ shares Issue from GitHub
13:14:25 <Detlev> JJ: Apple and Android have requirement for larger touch targets
13:14:48 <Detlev> JJ: explaining spacing exception in 2.5.8
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13:15:35 <julianmka> present+
13:16:02 <Detlev> JJ: continue discussion?
13:16:09 <JJ> q?
13:16:32 <Detlev> q+
13:16:40 <JJ> ack Detlev
13:17:39 <Detlev> Detlev: go beyond WCAG (target size)?
13:18:00 <Detlev> JJ: stay in line with WCAG2ICT but some notes for best practices could be added
13:18:02 <julianmka> q+
13:18:35 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:18:39 <Detlev> JJ: such as recommending larger sizes, reference developer documentation
13:19:36 <JJ> ack julianmka
13:19:56 <Detlev> JJ: Question was whether we better align with WCAG or WCAG2ICT -- the latter was preferred
13:20:59 <Detlev> Julian: Tell people to choose whatever is the more accessible (eg. decide between WCAG requirement and Android/iOS recommendations).
13:21:29 <Jamie> q+
13:21:43 <Detlev> ...Android and iOS are closed platforms where WCAG has no clout - that'S why we could instruct user sdto chosse the better one
13:21:59 <Detlev> JJ: could be trouble to link directly to Apple and Google
13:22:35 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:23:06 <Detlev> Joe: we should not use could language to inform people what they *should* be doing
13:23:23 <Detlev> ...could is not used
13:24:03 <Detlev> ...we could say it is too small for touch and one could point to triple A guideline without spacing exception
13:24:50 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:25:30 <Detlev> Jamie: as to adding Apple and Google resources: WCAG resources do include references to these
13:25:52 <Detlev> ..."for information purposes only"
13:26:33 <Detlev> ...not endorsed, but available - we could do it as well
13:27:33 <Detlev> ...we are talking about AA 2.5.8 - we can point to AAA as best practice - should not linger longer, this is the AA standard
13:28:02 <Detlev> JJ: most people felt it can be applied 'as is'
13:28:52 <Detlev> JJ: comfortable with accepting as such and add a note to preferability of larger sizes?
13:29:24 <JJ> Add note to 2.5.8 to point people towards resources which recommend larger touch target sizes (such as WCAG 2.5.5, Apple, Google)?
13:29:34 <julianmka> +1
13:29:36 <Karla> +1
13:29:36 <Detlev> +1
13:29:39 <jeroen> +1
13:29:41 <Jamie> a+
13:29:42 <Joe_Humbert> +1
13:29:45 <Jamie> q+
13:30:01 <Jamie> +1
13:30:07 <AlainVagner> +1
13:30:11 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:30:12 <Carolina> +1
13:30:49 <Detlev> Jamie: We would not be using the term CSS-pixels - replace with something else
13:31:21 <Detlev> JJ: may be density pixels or other units that make sense
13:31:36 <JJ> ACTION: Add note to 2.5.8 to point people towards resources which recommend larger touch target sizes (such as WCAG 2.5.5, Apple, Google)
13:31:55 <JJ> ACTION: Replace CSS Pixel unit with appropriate unit on mobile such as Density Pixel
13:33:53 <JJ> q?
13:33:58 <Detlev> JJ: will set up draft version of what guidance would look like
13:34:04 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:34:04 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- 3.2.1 On Focus -- taken up [from JJ]
13:35:10 <Detlev> JJ: can we keep going through SCs (niot focus on medium variations as suggested by Jamie)?
13:35:32 <Detlev> JJ: (reads 3.2.1 On Focus and add. notes)
13:35:47 <Detlev> ...of WCAG2ICT
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13:37:08 <Detlev> JJ: (going through examples)
13:37:22 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:38:00 <JJ> q?
13:38:04 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:38:06 <Detlev> JJ: example that filling out second form field should not force focus to first. ANy comments?
13:38:45 <Detlev> Joe: WCAG2ICT did not change definition of "change of context" even things that explicitly mention "web page"
13:38:59 <Detlev> ...we should change the definition
13:39:36 <Detlev> <Joe_Humbert: we need to be able to change definitions
13:40:10 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: We need to look at user agent and viewport as well
13:41:37 <Detlev> JJ: Structure in WCAG2ICT can be a bit confusing - some wordign changed - but not when applied as written
13:41:44 <JJ> q?
13:42:18 <Detlev> JJ: Can't remember why this was marked as large variation...
13:42:26 <Detlev> ...seems straightforward
13:42:45 <JJ> q+ Jamie
13:42:47 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:44:26 <Detlev> Jamie: wondering what the idea of focus was - keyboard focus, SR focus - in the mobile space, voice control ans switch access - do we need to differ from the description in the WCAG context - what tools create focus... that may have been the reason what we were marking it as large variation
13:45:14 <Detlev> JJ: define perhaps what user interface components would be - a label?
13:45:44 <Detlev> JJ: most work would be on the definitions (UIE, change of context)
13:45:55 <JJ> ACTION: Create Github issue for User Interface Component
13:46:03 <JJ> ACTION: Create Github issue for Change of Context
13:46:28 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:46:28 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- 3.2.2 On Input -- taken up [from JJ]
13:47:09 <Detlev> JJ: (looking at WCAG2ICT text for 3.2.2 on input)
13:47:30 <Detlev> ...reading intent
13:48:16 <Detlev> ...looking at the MATF Github issue
13:48:23 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:48:41 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:49:18 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: We also need to look at the definition of user interface component, check if we need to modify that
13:49:20 <Jamie> q+
13:49:33 <Detlev> ...what is it we think a control is?
13:49:50 <Jamie> q-
13:50:08 <Detlev> JJ: same note about user interface element
13:50:56 <Detlev> JJ: agenda is finnished - any additional topics?
13:51:15 <Detlev> Jamie: what is the next SC?
13:51:45 <JJ> agenda+ 3.2.3 Consistent Navigation
13:51:46 <Detlev> JJ: (checking which is next - consistent navigation)
13:52:23 <Detlev> Joe: Should be staret a document for "proposed definitions" so we can work outside meetings?
13:52:42 <JJ> ACTION: Mark Github issues related to Definitions with 'definition' tag
13:52:55 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:52:55 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- 3.2.3 Consistent Navigation -- taken up [from JJ]
13:53:05 <Jamie> +1 to Joe_Humbert
13:54:00 <Detlev> JJ: WCAG2ICT added a note that while not required SC should be considered best practice
13:54:41 <Detlev> ...relates to the problematc definition to "set of software programs" (rather than "set of views")
13:55:15 <Jamie> q+
13:55:25 <Detlev> JJ: In the EN 301 549 it is also considered to change to sets within software
13:55:28 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:56:33 <Detlev> Jamie: If we have a note, the way it is written does not clearly stating the purpose
13:57:03 <Detlev> ...seems confusing right now - we should not use the same wording
13:57:18 <Detlev> JJ: if we can view or screen it will be clearer
13:58:02 <Detlev> JJ: We might need an exception because there may be valid reasons to deviate in terms of order
13:58:38 <JJ> q?
13:58:46 <Detlev> ...need ti figure out if exception is needed - may not be needed since note is not normative
13:59:29 <Detlev> JJ: we may also discuss consistent help - applies more to web sites
13:59:59 <Detlev> JJ: will send out minutes after the meeting
14:01:16 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:01:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/09-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:29:53 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
14:29:53 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2024/10/09-matf-actions.rdf :
14:29:53 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Add note to 2.5.8 to point people towards resources which recommend larger touch target sizes (such as WCAG 2.5.5, Apple, Google) [1]
14:29:53 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/10/09-matf-irc#T13-31-36
14:29:53 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Replace CSS Pixel unit with appropriate unit on mobile such as Density Pixel [2]
14:29:53 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/10/09-matf-irc#T13-31-55
14:29:53 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Create Github issue for User Interface Component [3]
14:29:53 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/10/09-matf-irc#T13-45-55
14:29:53 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Create Github issue for Change of Context [4]
14:29:53 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/10/09-matf-irc#T13-46-03
14:29:53 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark Github issues related to Definitions with 'definition' tag [5]
14:29:53 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/10/09-matf-irc#T13-52-42