17:54:05 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 17:54:09 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/10/08-aria-apg-irc 17:54:09 RRSAgent, make logs Public 17:54:10 Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 17:59:35 jongund has joined #aria-apg 17:59:56 jugglinmike has joined #aria-apg 18:01:52 Zakim, start the meeting 18:01:52 RRSAgent, make logs Public 18:01:54 Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 18:02:06 present+ jugglinmike 18:02:09 scribe+ jugglinmike 18:02:22 present+ jongund 18:02:45 present+ Matt_King 18:03:26 present+ Daniel 18:09:04 CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg 18:10:13 Adam_Page has joined #aria-apg 18:10:21 present+ CurtBellew 18:10:23 present+ Adam_Page 18:10:24 present+ 18:10:28 Topic: Setup and Review Agenda 18:10:48 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/October-8%2C-2024-Agenda 18:10:49 howard-e has joined #aria-apg 18:10:54 present+ howard-e 18:10:54 present+ 18:11:15 Matt_King: Any requests for change to agenda? 18:11:24 Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll stick with the agenda as scheduled 18:11:30 Matt_King: Next meeting: October 15 18:11:54 Matt_King: Then we should be on a regular cadence until the American holiday of Thanksgiving 18:12:00 Topic: Publication planning 18:12:17 Daniel: No issues with the target date of October 29 18:12:35 Matt_King: Only one thing could end up being time-sensitive--the one about updating links to related issues 18:12:52 Matt_King: If GitHub stops doing redirects in November, we'll want to get this out to prevent those links from being broken 18:12:58 Matt_King: There are two things that are already done 18:13:15 Matt_King: Adam_Page's pull request is also on the agenda today. That's pretty lightweight, so it ought to make it in 18:13:42 Matt_King: Then there's jongund's patch for high-contrast. He had to leave this meeting early, so hopefully we can talk about it next week 18:13:59 Oliver_Habersetzer: I would like to give an update on the code guide changes 18:14:29 q+ 18:14:33 Matt_King: Sure. That's going into the repository content which doesn't get published, so it can be handled on its own timeline 18:15:11 Oliver_Habersetzer: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3060 18:15:42 Oliver_Habersetzer: There hasn't been much progress only because I've been sick. Rest assured that I'm working on it, now! 18:16:14 Daniel: Maybe we want to advance the publication of howard-e's pull request about the updated links. That way if the publication for the 29th slips, we aren't risking a state of broken links 18:16:44 Matt_King: Yeah. Or we could potentially move the whole milestone forward by a week 18:17:03 Matt_King: I think we could potentially publish that patch sooner to give ourselves some breathing room 18:17:26 Matt_King: That's next on the agenda, actually... 18:17:30 Topic: Where did our pattern-based GitHub projects go? 18:17:39 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3113 18:17:45 Matt_King: I want to celebrate 18:18:12 Matt_King: When we figured out what was going on here, we had a whole bunch of projects (over 20) that GitHub had essentially deprecated (or "sunset") 18:18:17 Matt_King: They were essentially gone 18:18:31 Matt_King: Everything for combobox, tree grid, tabs, and so on 18:18:56 Matt_King: Every page has a link to "related issues" and that is a specific project which contains all the issues that are related to that example and similar examples 18:19:01 Matt_King: That was quite a shocker 18:19:24 Matt_King: Those projects were supposed to be manually migrated by us if we wanted to keep them. I missed that, despite a prominent banner from GitHub 18:19:43 Matt_King: howard-e opened an issue with GitHub support and worked with them very diligently. They migrated all of those projects for us 18:19:49 Matt_King: The projects continue to remain public 18:20:24 Matt_King: For some reason, projects in the W3C GitHub organization are not public by default (that might be something that the W3C can and should change, by the way Daniel) 18:20:32 jongund has joined #aria-apg 18:20:36 Daniel: I can double check with our systems team 18:21:10 Matt_King: If its possible for us to make the default "public" on a repository-by-repository basis, it would be very helpful for the ARIA-APG and ARIA-AT repositories 18:21:19 OliverH has joined #aria-apg 18:21:27 Matt_King: Anyway, we got them all back, which is awesome! 18:21:53 I am back 18:22:02 Matt_King: It's just that the links we have on the website are old links. Those links automatically redirect to the new projects for now, but the redirection will end in November 18:22:13 Matt_King: I will take on reviewing that patch 18:22:28 Matt_King: I plan to get it merged as quickly as we can; hopefully before next week's meeting 18:22:46 jongund: I can help review, too 18:22:58 CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg 18:23:04 present+ 18:23:32 Matt_King: Sure. The patch is at https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3123 18:23:52 Matt_King: If you find any problems, please comment there 18:24:54 Topic: Tooltip pattern revision to clarify mouse out behavior 18:25:01 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3140 18:25:27 Adam_Page: An issue had been filed to point out that our language for the tooltip pattern (about when the content is automatically dismissed on mouseout or hover out) was vague 18:25:41 Adam_Page: It didn't account for a WCAG requirement 18:25:50 Adam_Page: I wrote a clarification on that topic 18:26:01 Adam_Page: preview here: https://deploy-preview-363--aria-practices.netlify.app/aria/apg/patterns/tooltip/#keyboardinteraction 18:26:07 Adam_Page: It's in the "keyboard" section 18:26:38 Adam_Page: I went ahead and split the details on "hover out" into its own list item and added the clarification there 18:26:47 Matt_King: That seems really clear to me 18:26:59 Matt_King: I'll paste the wording into the minutes... 18:27:05 3. If the tooltip is invoked when a pointing cursor moves over the trigger element, then it is dismissed when the cursor is neither over the trigger nor 18:27:06 the tooltip. 18:27:37 Matt_King: It is clear. I can see how there's a lot of different potential options here 18:28:04 Matt_King: Is a tool tip ever not invoked by hover? I'm wondering about the "if" part at the beginning... 18:28:18 Matt_King: The previous item says "if it's invoked on focus" so it's always been there 18:28:38 Matt_King: Now, when I read it, I'm wondering... Is it sometimes the case that you must click to open the tool tip? I guess that still counts as a tool tip 18:29:01 Adam_Page: Yeah. At least at Hilton, we definitely use it. We call it a "toggle tip" 18:29:07 Matt_King: I think Sarah popularized that term 18:29:19 jongund: Is there anything screen readers do with the role "tooltip"? 18:29:32 Matt_King: Not with the actual role, though there's a lot of discussion about that in the related issue. 18:29:48 Matt_King: That's a completely separate discussion from this mouse pull request, though 18:29:54 Matt_King: Okay, so I understand the "if" part 18:30:11 Matt_King: Sometimes when I see "neither [...] nor" I wonder if we can change it to an "either [...] or" 18:30:42 Matt_King: We're talking about when it's dismissed, so I guess it wouldn't make sense to say that it remains visible until until the mouse [...] 18:31:20 jongund: Maybe "remains open as long as the pointer is over the trigger or the tooltip" 18:31:50 Adam_Page: That sounds good. I used the "dismiss" language because I was trying to maintain parity with an earlier item. But jongund's suggestion sounds clearer to me, too 18:32:05 Adam_Page: I'll make that revision and push it up to the pull request 18:32:12 Matt_King: Cool. Thanks for this! 18:32:35 Topic: Live regions practice 18:32:58 Matt_King: We have had a pull request open for multiple years, originally drafted by Simon Pieters 18:33:03 Matt_King: I refactored it earlier this year 18:33:15 Matt_King: And jongund recently fixed a bunch of linting errors there 18:33:20 Matt_King: Thank you for that, jongund 18:33:43 Matt_King: We need someone to work on the editorial work of finishing up what this section should say, what it shouldn't say, and any potential revisions 18:33:59 Matt_King: I'm looking for a champion to take this on and get more "live region" information out to the world 18:34:20 Topic: ARIA 1.3 18:34:33 Matt_King: Along the same lines, we have a set of issues open related to ARIA 1.3 18:34:43 Matt_King: ARIA 1.3 wasn't even on the TPAC agenda at all 18:34:51 Matt_King: I don't know the status of ARIA 1.3 or the timeline 18:34:59 Daniel: It's still in first public working draft 18:35:10 Daniel: There is an issue which needs some attention before we can move forward 18:35:26 Daniel: Even though some people may consider the spec to be done, there's still some process work that needs to happen 18:35:53 jongund: There was once some discussion about deprecating some live region markup and just focusing on some roles. Has there been any discussion about that? 18:36:14 Matt_King: No action in that space. I proposed deprecating some of the roles, and Aaron proposed deprecating "aria relevant" 18:36:29 s/some process work/quite a bunch of W3C Process work/ 18:36:47 Matt_King: Some of the role deprecation proposals have definitely be rejected. They might have been one deprecation that people were willing to reconsider (I can't remember which) 18:36:59 Matt_King: But no one is working on making changes to that 18:37:19 jongund: I'm still working on the high contrast stuff, but if it's still active when I'm done, then I'd be willing to help 18:37:36 jongund: Otherwise, I've been working on skipTo stuff, and I think that's winding down 18:37:51 Topic: Potential WCAG failure in multi-thumb slider 18:37:59 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3118 18:39:05 Matt_King: The multi-thumb slider example, according to the reporter, doesn't meet the requirements of 2.5.7, "Dragging movements" 18:39:32 Matt_King: I haven't done any work to understand whether or not this is an accurate assessment, but I'd like to do that here in this meeting 18:39:50 jongund: I built this slider 18:40:15 Adam_Page: I see what the reporter is describing 18:40:37 Adam_Page: The new dragging behavior requires that any control which supports a "dragging" operation also supports a "single click" interaction to perform the same function 18:40:52 Adam_Page: Here, I can drag, but I cannot click on the empty track where I want it to move 18:41:18 Oliver_Habersetzer: but there are two sliders--isn't the intention ambiguous in that case? 18:41:26 Adam_Page: I believe it's the nearest slider that's suppose to move 18:42:14 Adam_Page: I'm playing around with Adobe's "double thumb" slider in their React library. For what it's worth, they seem to always choose the nearest thumb (whether you're on the interior of the two or outside of them) 18:42:23 Adam_Page: I'm not arguing that's the solution, but it is a solution 18:42:47 Matt_King: You have to do something, and I suppose that's the most obvious 18:43:22 jongund: The Adobe React example doesn't surprise me 18:43:40 Adam_Page: Yeah, it's definitely anecdotal, but it instinctively felt right 18:43:53 jongund: I think I could fix this pretty quick 18:44:09 jongund: I'd also like to update it to use some of our high-contrast support 18:44:46 Matt_King: jongund has a lot of his plate right now; is there anyone else that can help out? 18:45:07 Matt_King: Hearing no other volunteers, we'll take you up on your offer, jongund 18:46:06 jongund: I'd also like to change the graphic from using triangles to using circles. Would there be any objection to my doing that as well? 18:46:16 Adam_Page: Circles feel more conventional to me... 18:46:27 Oliver_Habersetzer: I have seen triangles in the wild, for what its worth 18:46:56 Adam_Page: For the double-thumb example in particular, I think the triangles reinforce the concept of "min" and "max 18:47:01 s/"max/"max"/ 18:47:08 Matt_King: Okay, then triangles it is! 18:47:15 Topic: Data grid keyboard interaction design 18:47:26 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3117 18:47:49 Matt_King: We received pretty straight-forward feedback 18:48:10 Matt_King: If you have a lot of rows, and you have sortable columns in the column headers where you can access "sort" functions 18:48:27 Matt_King: If you've navigated far down the grid, and you want to change something in the column... 18:48:45 Matt_King: ...though I'm not sure what you'd want to change anything besides "sort" 18:48:58 Matt_King: ...and if you changed "sort", then the row you were on will be in a different place 18:49:16 Matt_King: So I'm not sure if this is actually a problem, after all 18:50:09 CurtBellew: When you get into a huge grid, I'm not sure there's a good way to do this (beyond a new motion that could allow you to jump to a particular row) 18:50:22 Matt_King: Yeah, and that wouldn't be part of the pattern itself 18:50:30 Matt_King: Like, Microsoft Excel has such a command 18:51:06 Matt_King: That feels like an add-on feature for the application that you're building, and that it would probably be unique to that application (just like the similar functions are unique to Microsoft Excel and Google Sheets, and Visual Studio Code) 18:51:30 Oliver_Habersetzer: for what it's worth, I don't think NVDA has a command like that for navigation on tables on the web 18:51:56 CurtBellew: And for this scenario, it wouldn't be so helpful because the row number would be different 18:52:28 Matt_King: One suggestion (for the headers being a separate tab index) feels inconsistent with a composite pattern 18:52:50 Matt_King: I have seen where people put their headers in a separate element (either Schwab or Fidelity). It's really a problem! 18:53:01 CurtBellew: We did that at Oracle for some time, and it caused headaches 18:53:42 CurtBellew: Maybe the question is why home, control, end, "page up" and "page down" don't address this issue 18:54:10 Matt_King: If I sorted by "Name" and then read through a bit, and then resorted by "Date", I wouldn't have any expectation that I would be able to return to the same row 18:54:51 CurtBellew: One of the big issues we have (and which isn't necessarily related to the issue report itself) is discovering the availability of those keystrokes 18:55:16 s/Oliver_Habersetzer/OliverH/g 18:55:31 q+ 18:55:54 ack Daniel 18:56:53 Daniel: Maybe out of scope for this particular pattern: we have type-ahead now. It could be implemented there. If you're dealing with a great number of rows, then chances are that if you're sorting, you want to focus on a subset of the data. Sorting could be one way to do it, but then again, filtering could be another 18:57:20 Daniel: As I said, it's out-of-scope, but I do think it would improve the user experience for screen reader users and for other keyboard users 18:57:39 Matt_King: I think if we ever showed something like that in APG, it would be in the advance data grid, which we haven't gotten anybody to build, yet 18:58:06 Matt_King: It would probably be like Sheets or Excel. I suppose it could be done with the new "ARIA Actions" to open a menu to allow you to input a filter string 18:58:31 Matt_King: But it does feel like it would have to be the developer's responsibility to design and implement the UI in a way that's appropriate for their specific application 18:58:46 Daniel: Yeah, I like the developer being in charge of communicating this to their users 18:59:21 Matt_King: So, to summarize, it doesn't sound like we want to make a change to make a change to change the number of tab stops in the grid or to make the column headers separate from the grid body or anything like that. 18:59:45 CurtBellew: I'm not completely ambivalent. I lean toward them not being separate tab stops, but I can't make a concrete case 18:59:55 Matt_King: I can build a case for that based on the spec 19:00:38 Matt_King: As a screen reader user, it would be hard to understand if tabbing didn't take you in or out of the grid directly. That would be really surprising 19:02:14 Zakim, end the meeting 19:02:14 As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, jongund, Matt_King, Daniel, CurtBellew, Adam_Page, howard-e 19:02:17 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 19:02:18 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/08-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim 19:02:25 I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 19:02:25 Zakim has left #aria-apg 19:02:30 RRSAgent, leave 19:02:30 I see no action items