12:53:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #coga
12:53:20 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/10/07-coga-irc
12:53:20 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:53:21 <Zakim> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
12:53:22 <lisa> q?
12:53:28 <lisa> agenda
12:53:30 <lisa> agenda?
12:53:47 <lisa> Scribe: EA
12:54:19 <lisa> Agenda+ please sign up to scribe https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Scribe_list
12:54:36 <lisa> agenda+
12:54:59 <lisa> agenda+ Update and clean up actions
12:54:59 <lisa> https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit#
12:55:28 <lisa> agenda+ Schedule next few weeks
12:55:48 <lisa> agenda+ improvements to action page?
12:56:14 <lisa> agenda+ This weeks meetings
12:56:42 <lisa> agenda+ Updates and next steps for COGA’s feedback on Collaboration Tools Accessibility User
12:56:42 <lisa> Requirements See https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CFJoA8DHst31mej6o2en49wXhoMMLVe15fUzQB-owk8/edit#heading=h.37zt14gox8e4
12:56:53 <lisa> agenda+ Reviewing COGA’s feedback on Collaboration Tools Accessibility User
12:56:53 <lisa> Requirements See https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CFJoA8DHst31mej6o2en49wXhoMMLVe15fUzQB-owk8/edit#heading=h.37zt14gox8e4
15:01:13 <Lisa> Lisa has joined #coga
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15:02:23 <Jennie_Delisi> present+
15:03:05 <Lisa> agenda+
15:03:11 <Lisa> agenda?
15:03:36 <Lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
15:03:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/07-coga-minutes.html Lisa
15:03:45 <Frankie> Frankie has joined #coga
15:03:45 <Jennie_Delisi> present+
15:03:45 <Frankie> present+
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15:03:45 <Jennie_Delisi> scribe+
15:03:45 <Justine> Justine has joined #coga
15:03:47 <janina> present+
15:04:14 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: Our main item is going over the collaboration document.
15:04:15 <tburtin> present+
15:04:17 <Lisa> next item
15:04:27 <Jennie_Delisi> ...The other item is making sure we are already on the same page
15:04:32 <Lisa> scribe+ jennie
15:04:49 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: please sign up to scribe
15:04:54 <Lisa> next item
15:04:56 <DavidSwallow> DavidSwallow has joined #coga
15:04:59 <Lisa> close item 1
15:05:02 <Lisa> next item
15:05:06 <DavidSwallow> present+
15:05:28 <Lisa> https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit
15:05:51 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: We have gone to the next deadline of Making Content Usable
15:05:56 <Jennie_Delisi> ...User testing has happened.
15:06:16 <Jennie_Delisi> ...I have added to the table what I think should happen for the next version (December some time)
15:06:23 <julierawe> julierawe has joined #coga
15:06:28 <julierawe> present+
15:07:03 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: (displaying action items page)
15:07:18 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Rain and team are working on the analysis of the user testing
15:07:25 <Jennie_Delisi> ...She spoke to those from the W3C at TPAC
15:07:31 <Jennie_Delisi> ....We have to get the mental health proposals in
15:07:39 <Jennie_Delisi> ...There are other proposals related to open issues.
15:07:57 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Rain will be closing what the template will look like for the new draft
15:08:06 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We will have placeholders for things like editors' notes
15:08:18 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We should also have editors' notes for images (which we don't have yet)
15:08:31 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We need the patterns finalized.
15:08:40 <Jennie_Delisi> ...In order to have the needed images.
15:08:56 <Jennie_Delisi> ...In the next month: discussion about what is missing, and feedback from the structure subgroup.
15:09:07 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We will check to see if findability has been addressed.
15:09:18 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We will also need to close issues - we will need Eric for that.
15:09:35 <Jennie_Delisi> ....There is another table for issues needing discussion, and suggestions for the next version.
15:10:34 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We may want to be more in line with RTQF for our issue papers.
15:10:46 <Jennie_Delisi> ...There is also a list of what needs to be done for issue papers.
15:11:08 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We still need to do supported decision making and triggers.
15:11:39 <Lisa> q?
15:11:49 <Jennie_Delisi> ...If you are not sure what to do, please put yourself in queue.
15:12:01 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We have task tables for other things, like the CTAUR review.
15:12:21 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Each subgroup has its own section. Is that too much?
15:12:53 <Jennie_Delisi> ...These sections are aging quickly. Are there any changes you would like?
15:13:25 <Jennie_Delisi> David S: works ok for me.
15:13:30 <Jennie_Delisi> Julie: I think it is ok as is.
15:13:42 <Lisa> q?
15:13:54 <Lisa> next item
15:14:12 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: I would like to do the schedule, but we will wait for Rain to be on the call.
15:14:27 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Next week: how we define harm - the accessibility guidelines working group request.
15:14:36 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We do not have a lot scheduled after that.
15:14:43 <Jennie_Delisi> ...I think that is when Rain will share the feedback.
15:14:57 <Jennie_Delisi> ...I will check that with her.
15:15:12 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Anyone else have anything for the schedule?
15:15:29 <Lisa> next item
15:15:43 <Lisa> close item 4
15:16:04 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: At the early time on Thursday - Mental Health subgroup
15:16:21 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We will have an editor's call (planned) at 9 EST
15:16:56 <Lisa> Q?
15:16:56 <Jennie_Delisi> ...WCAG coordination group is at the same time our current meeting is, on Thursday
15:17:34 <Lisa> next item
15:17:47 <Lisa> close item 5
15:17:52 <Lisa> next item
15:18:10 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: We are late in our feedback.
15:18:29 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Some members were getting lost in the document, and were not contributing comments.
15:18:37 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We had a meeting to talk through feedback.
15:18:48 <Jennie_Delisi> ...David S notified RTQF of the coming changes.
15:19:03 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Are they still open to changes?
15:19:11 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Then we finish the review?
15:19:15 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Then what?
15:19:38 <Jennie_Delisi> Janina: The general feeling across WAI is that this is a valuable document that should get published.
15:19:55 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Unless something severely wrong, we are moving to a 1.0 version
15:20:00 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Small things we can fix.
15:20:14 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We think we have benefitted immensely from COGA's comments during the Spring.
15:20:21 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We had wide review in July, which closed in September.
15:20:39 <Jennie_Delisi> ...It is not too late to get something in, but has to be more specific (we will discuss in a moment)
15:20:51 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Hard to read has resonated across WAI.
15:21:04 <Lisa> Q+
15:21:13 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Matthew (co-chair) agrees, and Shawn Henry discussed that this has the same format as other documents.
15:21:29 <Jennie_Delisi> ...The review and updating of all the documents is a big job.
15:21:39 <Jennie_Delisi> ...When it happens all AUR documents will happen at the same time.
15:21:52 <Jennie_Delisi> ...If this one is hard to read, it is probably hard to read for lots of people.
15:22:00 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: Is there a point continuing with our review?
15:22:08 <Jennie_Delisi> Janina: Yes if there are specific questions I can answer.
15:22:20 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We can talk about specifics.
15:22:49 <Jennie_Delisi> ...You (COGA) were heard. We didn't necessarily take all of the edits, but we did update based on the information.
15:23:08 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Whoever wants to be involved in the redesign, that would be good.
15:23:20 <Jennie_Delisi> ...In addition to CTAUR, there are about half a dozen "AUR"s.
15:23:34 <Jennie_Delisi> ...For those who were on the review - John K is not today's call.
15:23:53 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: for some of the requirements - could make it more confusing.
15:24:02 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We had suggestions of additional user needs and requirements in 8
15:24:17 <Jennie_Delisi> ...It was hard to understand, and didn't address the problem from the different side.
15:24:30 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Perhaps 2 more user needs would solve it. Shall we discuss that?
15:24:39 <Jennie_Delisi> Janina: yes, especially if there is a specific suggestion.
15:24:40 <Lisa> q?
15:24:53 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: (displaying the version COGA was updating)
15:25:16 <Jan> Jan has joined #coga
15:25:18 <Jennie_Delisi> ...8 is probably to support COGA
15:25:23 <Jennie_Delisi> ...General guidance
15:25:28 <Jennie_Delisi> ...To learn a tool effectively
15:25:29 <Jan> present+
15:25:38 <Jennie_Delisi> ...User need: to be able to learn collaborative tools efficiently
15:25:48 <Jennie_Delisi> ...It took a while to determine this was for us.
15:26:44 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Recommend: say (reads recommendation from the document) specific example and the requirement.
15:27:03 <Jennie_Delisi> ....Familiar technology instead of conventional.
15:27:12 <Jennie_Delisi> Janina: we are unclear as to where the boundary of scope is here.
15:27:37 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We are trying to address what is unique to collaborative environments, and not addressed in good software design.
15:28:00 <Jennie_Delisi> ...If it is guidance that involves multiple environments it belongs somewhere, but not here.
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15:28:32 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: Live regions is an example of something that addresses things in this environment, but overlaps.
15:29:03 <Jennie_Delisi> ...In terms of other issues brought up here for screen reader users (like notifications, but not overwhelmed) is the basics of how to use live regions
15:29:09 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Which is true for many sites.
15:29:17 <julierawe> Need to step away from my desk—back in a minute, thanks...
15:29:30 <Jennie_Delisi> ...It is particularly a problem here, even though it is an issue across multiple environments.
15:29:41 <Jennie_Delisi> ....COGA's issues should get similar focus.
15:30:11 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Consistency across a variety of disability groups' user needs.
15:30:41 <Jennie_Delisi> ...This is why "use familiar word" (a well-known issue) should be a requirement
15:31:17 <Jennie_Delisi> ...The requirement for implement ...should add "familiar words" and design patterns.
15:31:39 <Jennie_Delisi> Janina: I think that would not be a problem. We should capture that in a Github issue.
15:31:42 <Jennie_Delisi> David S: yes.
15:32:39 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: Add a user need that (reads from the document) includes keep it simple, short critical paths, requirement b - not requiring opening multiple tabs and panels to complete a single task
15:32:50 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Reason: remembering and navigating can disorient a user.
15:33:17 <Jennie_Delisi> Janina: a good example - I would be interested in adding this
15:33:23 <Jennie_Delisi> ...a good example would be really powerful.
15:33:36 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: requirement C for that - enable a mode for inline changes
15:33:45 <Jennie_Delisi> ...here the example is the difs
15:33:58 <Jennie_Delisi> ...If you do not have a visual memory - comparing 2 different documents is impossible.
15:34:08 <Jennie_Delisi> ...And having a color identifier.
15:34:20 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Having the option for inline changes.
15:34:34 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Example: suggestions can be in a different color from the rest of the text.
15:34:57 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Right now in Github not everyone can understand the HTML changes, then use a diff to compare the current version and the previous
15:35:12 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We are copying out, moving the two versions combined in Google doc
15:35:21 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We use suggestion mode
15:35:31 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Then you can see strikethrough for things which have been changed
15:35:40 <Jennie_Delisi> ...This helps people understand what differences have been made.
15:36:01 <Jennie_Delisi> Janina: I think the requirement is for a user agent requirement which supports multiple ways for showing a diff
15:36:07 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Strikethrough vs green is still a diff
15:36:16 <Jennie_Delisi> ...It is displayed differently
15:36:19 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: inline
15:36:32 <tburtin> q+
15:36:34 <Jennie_Delisi> Janina: that might be a useful explanatory note. I think that is already supported in Github
15:36:48 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Someone in the collaborative document - we are trying to be generic
15:37:03 <Jennie_Delisi> ...It is possible to do it, so we need to point out it is important to do it.
15:37:15 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: we have said enable a mode for inline changes.
15:37:40 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Final requirement: when new processes are necessary keep them as familiar to the users as possible
15:37:43 <Jennie_Delisi> ...or added
15:37:48 <Jennie_Delisi> Janina: Like what?
15:37:51 <tburtin> Can we use screen reader friendly characters/symbols to help identify the color coding?
15:37:58 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: allow the user to roll back the interface
15:38:23 <Jennie_Delisi> ...As people age they can be successful, but cannot learn the new design patterns. That can be really difficult.
15:38:35 <Jennie_Delisi> ...When adding new processes or designs, allowing people to roll back.
15:38:48 <Jennie_Delisi> Janina: I think of new process is a new feature.
15:38:55 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: they will redesign.
15:39:30 <Jennie_Delisi> ...The 2nd user need: I sometimes need in-page instructions so I can do the correct task.
15:39:35 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We had 2 requirements.
15:39:46 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Instructions in a place easy to find - a place for putting notes.
15:40:00 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Github has this - a place for a pull request template, to follow your team's checklist.
15:40:04 <Jennie_Delisi> ...That is really useful.
15:40:18 <Jennie_Delisi> ...And context sensitive help being available for non-standard elements.
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15:40:37 <Jennie_Delisi> Janina: I am not sure the last one is specific to collaborative environments.
15:40:44 <Jennie_Delisi> ...They are good points, not arguing with that.
15:40:52 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: I am looking at requirement 15.
15:40:55 <Jennie_Delisi> ...For equity.
15:41:09 <kirkwood> present+
15:41:29 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Ensure that users can choose which types of notifications are delivered or suppressed.
15:41:38 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Is that true only for collaborative documents?
15:41:56 <Jennie_Delisi> Janina: you could make an argument that it is also in complex environments.
15:42:10 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: That's my point. But they are common problems in collaborative documents.
15:42:30 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Any application developer could read this and get ideas for user needs for work-based applications.
15:42:46 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Anything that gives lots of notifications.
15:43:03 <Jennie_Delisi> ...So I don't see them as only applying to collaborative documents, otherwise exclude the points.
15:43:20 <Jennie_Delisi> ...I feel the same considerations should be applied to the COGA suggestions.
15:43:35 <Jennie_Delisi> ...I think we need to apply the same approach evenly.
15:44:11 <Jennie_Delisi> ...There were other comments we made where we thought (note: small call) there were things which might not work.
15:44:20 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Example 5.2
15:44:32 <Jennie_Delisi> ..."that's appropriate to the type of content"
15:44:43 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Source code vs natural language.
15:44:56 <Jennie_Delisi> ...I do not understand how you can understand a word out of context.
15:45:12 <Jennie_Delisi> Janina: I think that is about diffs.
15:45:23 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: I'm not sure, I find it hard to understand.
15:45:34 <Jennie_Delisi> Janina: I think this might be a place to add the example we discussed before.
15:46:05 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: the AI summaries are also often incorrect. We need to know if the summary is made by AI.
15:46:15 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Another problem with AI - summarizing the changes.
15:46:34 <Jennie_Delisi> ...I didn't think AI could do this. When I do it in Github, or Wikipedia, a summary is not helpful
15:46:44 <Jennie_Delisi> ...What is helpful is "here are the changes from John's review"
15:47:12 <Jennie_Delisi> Janina: re leaving AI in there - is it more helpful to not have it at all, since you won't get it on a day by day or week by week
15:47:16 <Jennie_Delisi> ...if a human is doing it
15:47:26 <Jennie_Delisi> ...If an AI can provide this is it useful or damaging?
15:47:30 <Jennie_Delisi> ...It might be harmful?
15:47:40 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: I don't know. But at the very least it needs to be marked as AI.
15:47:46 <Jennie_Delisi> Janina: that's easy. I have no problem with that.
15:48:09 <Jennie_Delisi> ...I kept having difficulty with the Google doc this morning - I can't tell what is still open or still done.
15:48:23 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: what are the next steps?
15:48:31 <Jennie_Delisi> Janina: a list of some of this that we discussed this morning.
15:48:38 <Jennie_Delisi> ...The colorized diff - that is an easy tweak
15:48:43 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Any kind of summations
15:48:50 <Jennie_Delisi> ...AI should be provided and labeled
15:49:00 <Jennie_Delisi> ...That's an easy fix even for 1.0
15:49:12 <Jennie_Delisi> ....Some of what we discussed today is not hard, but we need a very specific, actionable list.
15:49:29 <Jennie_Delisi> ...I will take up notification filtering - is this is scope or not - that is a legitimate question.
15:49:40 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Are we being consistent is also a legitimate question.
15:49:56 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: we have a half hour after this call if some are available.
15:49:59 <Jennie_Delisi> Janina: I can stay.
15:50:09 <Jennie_Delisi> David S: Shall we boil this down to the main feedback.
15:50:17 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: if someone can turn it into a list, that is one task.
15:50:29 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Another task: having more people review the document. John K and I did.
15:50:37 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Any we only looked at the user need part.
15:50:44 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Do we want to carry on with the review?
15:51:07 <Jennie_Delisi> Janina: we should really think about making the list today or tomorrow.
15:51:22 <Jennie_Delisi> ...There is a desire to publish. There is also the agreement we need to redesign.
15:51:30 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: does anyone want to do more review of the document?
15:51:50 <Lisa> q?
15:51:53 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Anyone else have comments?
15:52:04 <Lisa> ack next
15:52:09 <Lisa> ack t
15:52:38 <Jennie_Delisi> Tiffany: I was going to recommend in the Google docs, in addition to color alone, we should have a consistent way to identify for those using a screen reader to identify changes.
15:52:40 <Jennie_Delisi> q+
15:53:23 <Jennie_Delisi> q-
15:53:51 <Jennie_Delisi> Janina: I have no particular experience regarding Google docs - we would need review from some power users of Google docs with screen readers.
15:53:59 <Jennie_Delisi> ...I have no knowledge personally.
15:54:24 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: we should make sure that the information is easily accessed by all users.
15:54:33 <Jennie_Delisi> q+
15:54:41 <Lisa> ack next
15:55:10 <kirkwood> https://support.google.com/docs/answer/1632201?hl=en
15:55:19 <tburtin> q+
15:55:25 <kirkwood> support info for google doc screen reader capabilities
15:56:38 <Jennie_Delisi> Jennie: the things I see needing review are future updates related to how people can view/use different types of presentations (both visually and programmatically) once other updates are made to the document.
15:56:51 <Jennie_Delisi> Lisa: I am adding John's comment in the chat to the document.
15:56:52 <Lisa> ack next
15:57:07 <Jennie_Delisi> Tiffany: for me the screen reader commands within Google docs are complex.
15:57:14 <Jennie_Delisi> ...I use it with vision.
15:57:29 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Dark mode can also change the expression of the colors.
15:57:43 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Having a tag would help for those using dark mode + screen reader.
15:58:04 <Jennie_Delisi> Jennie: +1 and multiple users would benefit including those with color deficiencies.
15:58:13 <Jennie_Delisi> Janina: we are talking about a span of content.
15:58:50 <Jennie_Delisi> ...If we talk about something like a magazine article. Some could be expressed through strikeout, or from color. Getting a tag to indicate where to look for this to start or stop - would that be helpful?
15:59:22 <Jennie_Delisi> Tiffany: It is challenging. Some using limited vision would reserve this for this type of task.
15:59:35 <Jennie_Delisi> ...The tag would get someone with vision to the right spot.
15:59:43 <julierawe> Have to leave for next meeting. Thanks, everyone!
15:59:49 <Jennie_Delisi> ...In dark mode someone would know that there is a differentiation.
16:00:01 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Having the tags for start and end point would be helpful.
16:00:03 <Jennie_Delisi> q+
16:00:32 <Jennie_Delisi> Jennie: this might be covered somewhat in PDF/UA
16:00:35 <Lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
16:00:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/07-coga-minutes.html Lisa