IRC log of ag on 2024-10-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:30:02 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/10/01-ag-irc
14:30:07 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:30:08 [Zakim]
Meeting: AGWG Teleconference
14:30:10 [Chuck]
chair: Chuck
14:30:16 [Chuck]
meeting: AGWG-2024-09-30
14:30:23 [Chuck]
rrsagent, generate minutes
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/01-ag-minutes.html Chuck
14:31:31 [Chuck]
agenda+ TPAC Review
14:31:39 [Chuck]
agenda+ Review Conformance Model Options
14:31:47 [Chuck]
agenda+ Deciding on outcome formatting
14:31:53 [Chuck]
agenda+ Outcome Breakouts
14:32:01 [Chuck]
regrets: Bruce Bailey. Mary Jo Mueller, Makoto Ueki
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14:58:02 [Laura_Carlson]
present+ Laura_Carlson
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Scribe: Laura_Carlson
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15:00:19 [ChrisLoiselle]
present+
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present+
15:00:48 [GreggVan]
present+
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present+
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present+
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present+
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present+
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present+
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15:02:39 [alastairc]
present+
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present+
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15:02:51 [kevin]
present+
15:02:52 [mbgower]
present+
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present+
15:03:12 [Laura_Carlson]
Chuck: Welcome.
15:03:49 [Laura_Carlson]
Chuck: Any new members? None.
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present+
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present+
15:04:08 [Laura_Carlson]
Chuck: Announcements? None
15:04:13 [Laura_Carlson]
Chuck: Any new topics?
15:04:20 [Chuck]
zakim, take up item 1
15:04:20 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- TPAC Review -- taken up [from Chuck]
15:04:20 [Laura_Carlson]
... None.
15:04:41 [Laura_Carlson]
... will share screen.
15:04:52 [Chuck]
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/17VJvnm5UQW4WUzIoo9QNPVGfePgaZa8ifZWs-wtmv7E/edit#slide=id.g306477bedd2_0_0
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present+
15:05:20 [Laura_Carlson]
... Slide Deck from TPAC and Minutes.
15:05:43 [Laura_Carlson]
... next steps. Individual Activity: Participants try out testing WCAG 3
15:06:03 [Laura_Carlson]
... Chairs: Try flipping % passes and fails
15:06:30 [Laura_Carlson]
Group activity explained on slide.
15:06:39 [Chuck]
zakim, take up next item
15:06:39 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Review Conformance Model Options -- taken up [from Chuck]
15:06:43 [Laura_Carlson]
... questions?
15:06:53 [sarahhorton]
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15:07:00 [sarahhorton]
present+
15:07:03 [Laura_Carlson]
... Conformance models to explore
15:07:23 [Laura_Carlson]
... first one is Required plus %:
15:07:33 [Glenda]
present+
15:07:37 [Laura_Carlson]
... Level 1: Required outcomes;
15:07:40 [Detlev]
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15:07:42 [Graham]
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15:07:47 [Laura_Carlson]
...All levels above level 1 are based on %
15:07:50 [Graham]
present+
15:07:51 [Detlev]
present+
15:08:25 [Laura_Carlson]
... Second model is Levels: Each of 4-5 level is clearly defined; Each level has a required set of outcomes (preselected to balance functional needs)
15:08:30 [Jen_G]
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15:08:50 [Laura_Carlson]
... third model is Hybrid: Level 1: Required outcomes; All levels above level 1 include % AND a subset of required outcomes for that level
15:08:54 [Jen_G]
Present+
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15:09:15 [Kimberly]
present+
15:09:26 [Laura_Carlson]
... fourth model is Required plus functional need %: Level 1: Required outcomes; All levels above level 1 include % AND a minimum % requirement for each functional need
15:09:55 [GreggVan]
q+
15:10:00 [Rain]
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15:10:02 [Rain]
present+
15:10:10 [Laura_Carlson]
... AC put together doc with pros & cons.
15:10:22 [Laura_Carlson]
AC: work in progress.
15:10:56 [Laura_Carlson]
... https://docs.google.com/document/d/17J4lkSBGBlDDLTtqJ2YcI687uNuDn_-4aeDNdnOloP4/edit#heading=h.pzyudbi3bzk1
15:10:57 [Chuck]
ack Gregg
15:11:11 [alastairc]
q+ on NAs
15:11:24 [Chuck]
ack ala
15:11:24 [Zakim]
alastairc, you wanted to comment on NAs
15:11:26 [Laura_Carlson]
Gregg: id something is N/A does it pass
15:11:57 [kevin]
q+
15:12:07 [Laura_Carlson]
AC: N/A count as pass is
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15:12:17 [Chuck]
ack Kevin
15:12:58 [Laura_Carlson]
Kevin: with counting failures N/A don't count as much.
15:12:59 [GreggVan]
q+
15:13:12 [Chuck]
ack Gregg
15:13:24 [alastairc]
counting fails turns the numbers around, but it doesn't affect NAs as such. You either have to count them as part of the whole, or not.
15:13:24 [mbgower]
Is that occurrences of a fail, or number of requirements not met?
15:13:29 [Laura_Carlson]
Gregg: are failures non-passing of an outcome?
15:13:29 [Graham]
q+
15:13:32 [Rachael]
present+
15:13:34 [alastairc]
Not instances, outcomes
15:13:34 [Laura_Carlson]
Chuck: yes.
15:13:41 [Chuck]
ack Grah
15:14:02 [alastairc]
q+ on option 2
15:14:09 [Chuck]
ack ala
15:14:09 [Zakim]
alastairc, you wanted to comment on option 2
15:14:11 [Laura_Carlson]
Graham: How would counting failures work with number 2?
15:14:54 [Graham]
q+
15:14:55 [Laura_Carlson]
Ac: this isn't instances. It is whether an outcome is met or not.
15:14:59 [Chuck]
ack Grah
15:15:01 [ChrisLoiselle]
q+
15:15:37 [ChrisLoiselle]
question on this slide vs. https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/pull/112#issuecomment-2377452956 and my comment there.
15:15:38 [Kimberly]
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15:15:40 [Chuck]
ack Chris
15:16:54 [alastairc]
q+ on how it relates to A/AA etc and pre-req / baseline
15:16:56 [Laura_Carlson]
Chris: Slide 49. How does it relate to AA, AAA and A?
15:17:36 [Laura_Carlson]
... terminology mapping question.
15:17:39 [Chuck]
ack ala
15:17:39 [Zakim]
alastairc, you wanted to comment on how it relates to A/AA etc and pre-req / baseline
15:18:04 [Laura_Carlson]
AC: we are trying to settle terminology.
15:18:14 [Kimberly]
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15:18:57 [Laura_Carlson]
... Required is what we had like combo of pre requests and baseline.
15:19:14 [Laura_Carlson]
... Somewhat different than A. AA, AAA.
15:19:22 [Graham]
q+
15:19:26 [Chuck]
ack Graham
15:19:38 [Detlev]
has bronze / silver / gold been dumped for good?
15:19:58 [alastairc]
Detlev - no, we're just not naming that yet.
15:20:10 [Laura_Carlson]
Graham: #2 puts us back into the situation that we are in now.
15:20:20 [alastairc]
q+ on option 2
15:20:28 [Laura_Carlson]
... where people get discouraged.
15:20:33 [Chuck]
ack ala
15:20:33 [Zakim]
alastairc, you wanted to comment on option 2
15:20:47 [scott]
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15:20:48 [kirkwood]
present+
15:20:53 [scott]
present+
15:20:57 [Graham]
q+
15:20:59 [Laura_Carlson]
AC: it is an obvious con on option 2.
15:21:02 [Chuck]
ack Grah
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15:21:43 [Laura_Carlson]
Graham: could have a subset of things.
15:21:58 [Chuck]
q?
15:22:08 [Laura_Carlson]
... hybrid of 3&4.
15:22:11 [Chuck]
zakim, take up next item
15:22:11 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Deciding on outcome formatting -- taken up [from Chuck]
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15:22:45 [Laura_Carlson]
Chuck: GitHub Discussion
15:23:45 [Laura_Carlson]
AC: we went thru various options.
15:23:52 [Laura_Carlson]
... Revising existing structure
15:24:07 [Laura_Carlson]
...Finding a need to organize content by a higher grouping
15:24:20 [Laura_Carlson]
... We have been referring to those as outcomes but we suggest better aligning the language since the technical format we decided on isn’t an “outcome”
15:24:33 [Laura_Carlson]
... Suggested way forward:
15:24:43 [Laura_Carlson]
...Outcomes: Plain language, user-oriented statements of the desired outcome; grouping the guidelines
15:24:49 [Laura_Carlson]
...Guidelines: Technical statements to meet each outcome
15:25:11 [Laura_Carlson]
... example: Outcome: Users can see which element has keyboard focus.
15:25:11 [Laura_Carlson]
Guidelines:
15:25:26 [Laura_Carlson]
... Present
15:25:32 [Detlev]
q+
15:25:38 [Laura_Carlson]
...Not obscured: The focus indicator is not obscured or partially obscured (more than 50%, TBC)
15:25:45 [Laura_Carlson]
...Persistent: The focus indicator persists while the element has focus, but does not persist after the element loses focus.
15:25:47 [Graham]
q+
15:25:52 [Laura_Carlson]
... Distinctive: The keyboard focus indicator uses a style that is distinct from the style of other controls, so that the item in focus can be distinguished without reference to the non-focused state.
15:25:53 [julierawe]
q+
15:25:54 [Chuck]
ack Detlev
15:25:59 [Laura_Carlson]
... Sufficiently visible: According to the specific method (below), the indicator must be visually discernible whilst navigating.
15:26:12 [Graham]
q-
15:26:20 [dan_bjorge]
+1 to detlev
15:26:25 [Graham]
100% - that was my recommendatiuon - requirement!
15:26:38 [Laura_Carlson]
Detlev: don't understand why guideline is better that requirements.
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15:26:50 [Chuck]
ack julie
15:26:51 [Rachael]
Q+
15:26:54 [GreggVan]
q+
15:26:57 [Laura_Carlson]
AC: they are not phrased as outcomes.
15:27:02 [Frankie]
Present+
15:27:04 [sarahhorton]
Requirements that produce the outcome
15:27:11 [Rain]
+1 they are written as requirements, and requirements is nice and clear
15:27:17 [Laura_Carlson]
Julie: outcome is a little confusing.
15:27:22 [Chuck]
ack Rach
15:27:42 [julierawe]
"Guidelines" is confusing
15:27:46 [Chuck]
q?
15:27:48 [Chuck]
ack Gregg
15:27:53 [Laura_Carlson]
AC one concern with it,
15:28:25 [Laura_Carlson]
GreggVan: I'd like to speak for using guidelines.
15:29:22 [sarahhorton]
Silver had guidelines > outcomes > methods/requirements
15:29:27 [Chuck]
did we lose me?
15:29:30 [Laura_Carlson]
... guidelines allows some things to be required or and somethings that are not testable.
15:30:04 [Detlev]
q+
15:30:16 [alastairc]
q+ on examples not include assertions - so it's a good piont
15:30:32 [wendyreid]
present+
15:30:51 [Laura_Carlson]
... could have minimums are required and other are things that you can do.
15:30:59 [kevin]
+1 to minimum - I like this slightly better than "prerequisite" although I do get that "prerequisite" is trying to say something slightly different
15:31:01 [Chuck]
q+ to ask if we must stick with one "word" as a description?
15:31:06 [Graham]
Required, recommended - simple and straight forward language. Required are for a pass, recommended could (not necessarily) then be used for further scoring if we use one of those models.
15:31:12 [ljoakley]
present+
15:31:13 [Chuck]
ack Detlev
15:31:32 [kevin]
q+
15:32:02 [Graham]
Detlev is bang on with terms that work in my mind, literally just said the same!
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15:32:08 [dan_bjorge]
q+
15:32:10 [GreggVan]
q+
15:32:11 [Chuck]
ack ala
15:32:13 [Zakim]
alastairc, you wanted to comment on examples not include assertions - so it's a good piont
15:32:16 [Laura_Carlson]
Detlev: seems counter intuitive. Could use requirements, recommendations, and assertions.
15:32:20 [kevin]
q- later
15:32:50 [ljoakley]
q+
15:33:17 [Chuck]
ack Ch
15:33:17 [Zakim]
Chuck, you wanted to ask if we must stick with one "word" as a description?
15:33:21 [Laura_Carlson]
Ac: Somewhat baffled . guidelines has been used for many, many, years.
15:33:43 [Laura_Carlson]
Chuck: does it have to be a one word?
15:33:49 [Chuck]
ack dan
15:33:51 [Rachael]
Q+
15:33:54 [kevin]
-1 to multiple words
15:34:01 [Detlev]
@AC yes sure but for a higher level
15:34:20 [Chuck]
ack Gregg
15:34:24 [Laura_Carlson]
Dan :has different meaning in WCAG 2
15:35:10 [Rachael]
+1 to GreggVan
15:35:11 [Laura_Carlson]
Gregg: like outcomes, guidelines , requirements, recommendations, and assertions.
15:35:13 [alastairc]
In WCAG 2 the "guidelines" are the groupings for sets of SC.
15:35:45 [Chuck]
ack kevin
15:35:57 [Laura_Carlson]
... 3 kinds of guidelines: requirements, recommendations, and assertions.
15:35:57 [Chuck]
ack ljo
15:35:58 [alastairc]
q+ to suggest we don't title the list of things on the face of the spec.
15:36:40 [kevin]
qq+
15:37:00 [Chuck]
q+ to say if we name it for ourselves and just ourselves, I'm ok with any options mentioned, favorable to requirements
15:37:40 [Laura_Carlson]
LO: Guidelines may not be the best term. Some people don't think that they are definitive.
15:37:42 [Chuck]
ack Rach
15:37:50 [Jennie_Delisi]
I think this points to putting more than word, per Chuck's option, if possible.
15:38:11 [Chuck]
ack ala
15:38:11 [Zakim]
alastairc, you wanted to suggest we don't title the list of things on the face of the spec.
15:38:12 [Laura_Carlson]
RM: ice if we had a term for the differences. Liked Gregg's comment.
15:38:15 [Detlev]
+1 to ljoakley
15:38:38 [Rain]
q+
15:38:55 [Chuck]
ack kevin
15:38:55 [Zakim]
kevin, you wanted to react to ljoakley
15:38:55 [Laura_Carlson]
Ac: suggest not putting a name on the face of the spec for this.
15:39:36 [wendyreid]
q+
15:39:44 [Chuck]
ack Ch
15:39:44 [Zakim]
Chuck, you wanted to say if we name it for ourselves and just ourselves, I'm ok with any options mentioned, favorable to requirements
15:39:56 [wendyreid]
q-
15:40:18 [Laura_Carlson]
Kevin: we are aware that legislators will sue. Challenge against w3c rec. but recognition that they are standards.
15:40:44 [Laura_Carlson]
AC: maybe we can work on this without giving this a name.
15:40:52 [Chuck]
ack Rain
15:41:10 [Glenda]
another word to consider “Standard”
15:41:26 [Laura_Carlson]
Rain: Maybe use use a simple header.
15:42:39 [Graham]
q+
15:43:26 [Detlev]
+1 to Rain
15:43:35 [Laura_Carlson]
... experiences with people in the wild are direct experiences. Need to explain things on a basic level. General population perspective is valuable.
15:43:36 [Chuck]
+1 to proposed resolution, which I will test after queue
15:44:02 [Chuck]
ack Grah
15:44:03 [Laura_Carlson]
... put this on our list of topics.
15:44:35 [alastairc]
We do have a glossary in development.
15:44:38 [Laura_Carlson]
Graham: let's create a glossary for the time being.
15:45:12 [Laura_Carlson]
Chuck: need to have some level of consensus.
15:45:13 [Chuck]
q?
15:45:15 [julierawe]
q+
15:45:17 [Rachael]
Q+
15:45:19 [Chuck]
ack Julie
15:45:34 [Chuck]
ack Rach
15:46:04 [Rain]
+1 to structure of sentence and technical statement below it
15:46:09 [wendyreid]
+1
15:46:09 [ljoakley]
Rachael 1+
15:46:10 [Chuck]
+1
15:46:14 [Graham]
=1
15:46:14 [Laura_Carlson]
RM: what of you think of the structure of the sentence.
15:46:16 [Graham]
+1
15:46:17 [GreggVan]
q+
15:46:21 [Chuck]
ack Gregg
15:46:55 [Detlev]
the hundred plus outcomes so far collected are fairly fine-grained - so will they move up in granularity?
15:47:09 [Chuck]
draft RESOLUTION: For the next publication, we will use "Outcome" (user-focused outcomes) to group the requirements and assertions. We will explore terminology for the requirement/assertion level in future.
15:47:10 [Laura_Carlson]
Gregg: Guidelines is in the name of our document
15:47:41 [wendyreid]
+1
15:47:43 [Graham]
+1 (but we must link to a glossary of terms)
15:47:44 [julierawe]
+1
15:47:44 [Rain]
+1
15:47:45 [ljoakley]
+1
15:47:45 [Detlev]
+1
15:47:48 [Rachael]
+1
15:47:48 [alastairc]
+1
15:47:49 [ShawnT]
+1
15:47:50 [GreggVan]
+1!
15:47:51 [Jennie_Delisi]
0 only because outcome often equals results
15:47:52 [kevin]
+1
15:47:52 [Chuck]
+1 (and agree with Graham)
15:47:53 [sarahhorton]
+1
15:47:57 [MJ]
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15:47:59 [dan_bjorge]
+1
15:48:00 [Laura_Carlson]
Laura: +1
15:48:01 [filippo-zorzi]
+1
15:48:01 [Frankie]
Frankie has joined #ag
15:48:03 [Francis_Storr]
+1
15:48:08 [scott0]
0
15:48:09 [ChrisLoiselle]
0
15:48:15 [Jen_G]
+1
15:48:31 [Chuck]
RESOLUTION: For the next publication, we will use "Outcome" (user-focused outcomes) to group the requirements and assertions. We will explore terminology for the requirement/assertion level in future.
15:48:33 [kirkwood]
=1
15:48:48 [kirkwood]
+1
15:49:04 [kevin]
s/=1//
15:49:10 [kevin]
q+
15:49:11 [alastairc]
q+ on PR, we'll need to overhaul that
15:49:21 [kevin]
q- later
15:49:22 [Chuck]
ack Kevin
15:49:30 [Laura_Carlson]
Julie: pull request for outcomes.
15:49:39 [ChrisLoiselle]
+1 to that statement Julie made.
15:49:55 [Chuck]
ack ala
15:49:56 [Zakim]
alastairc, you wanted to comment on PR, we'll need to overhaul that
15:50:10 [Laura_Carlson]
Kevin: I'm looking at it now. We can make changes going forward.
15:50:23 [Chuck]
zakim, take up next item
15:50:23 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- Outcome Breakouts -- taken up [from Chuck]
15:51:24 [Laura_Carlson]
Chuck: 3 separate groups.
15:51:34 [MelanieP]
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15:51:34 [GreggVan]
q+
15:51:47 [Laura_Carlson]
.... Group 1: Refine outcome and guideline organization
15:51:59 [Laura_Carlson]
... Group 2: Refine outcomes statements to match agreed upon format
15:52:08 [Laura_Carlson]
... Group 3: Categorize as Required and Enhanced to help with testing conformance and forming subgroups
15:52:10 [MelanieP]
q+
15:52:19 [Laura_Carlson]
... We are still at exploratory for this exercise
15:52:27 [Laura_Carlson]
... We need clarity and consistency but not perfection
15:52:30 [Chuck]
ack Gregg
15:52:33 [Laura_Carlson]
... Editors will combine the results
15:52:53 [Laura_Carlson]
Gregg: Group 3 doesn't make any sense.
15:53:35 [Chuck]
ack Melanie
15:53:54 [Laura_Carlson]
Chuck: we are deciding at the if the "thingy" is required or not.
15:54:02 [alastairc]
q+ on bronze / pre-req / required
15:54:13 [Chuck]
ack ala
15:54:13 [Zakim]
alastairc, you wanted to comment on bronze / pre-req / required
15:54:40 [Laura_Carlson]
Melanie: How does this relate to bronze, silver, gold?
15:55:08 [Laura_Carlson]
... (explains history)
15:56:58 [Laura_Carlson]
... Kind of dropped them.. Not trying to recreate a, aa aaa.
15:56:59 [ChrisLoiselle]
bronze, silver, gold, a, aa, aaa , pre req, baseline, enhanced - is there a mapping reference that compare of all these? I know this is iterative.
15:57:40 [Laura_Carlson]
... we are so far away from WCAG 2.
15:57:51 [Rachael]
Q+
15:58:01 [ChrisLoiselle]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/pull/112#issuecomment-2377452956 has a list of questions that relate to Melanie's questions , I look forward to those answers to understand this more fully.
15:58:06 [Laura_Carlson]
... way more in baseline for WCAG 3
15:58:08 [Chuck]
ack Rach
15:58:42 [julierawe]
I have to drop for a work meeting. Have a good week, everybody!
15:58:45 [Laura_Carlson]
RM: A future activity would be a mapping.
15:59:42 [kevin]
scribe+
15:59:50 [kevin]
scribe-
16:00:14 [MJ]
I have to drop off for a meeting but will rejoin in 30 minutes.
16:00:23 [MJ]
MJ has left #ag
16:00:33 [alastairc]
q+ to answer Chris's questions, briefly.
16:00:40 [Laura_Carlson]
Chuck: 1 & 3 are self explanatory.
16:00:44 [Chuck]
q?
16:00:48 [Chuck]
ack ala
16:00:48 [Zakim]
alastairc, you wanted to answer Chris's questions, briefly.
16:01:03 [alastairc]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/pull/112
16:01:08 [Laura_Carlson]
... correction: 2 & 3 are self explanatory
16:01:55 [Laura_Carlson]
AC: we have grouped prerequisite an baseline together.
16:02:10 [Laura_Carlson]
... they are in required/
16:02:19 [ChrisLoiselle]
thanks.
16:03:04 [Laura_Carlson]
... any questions?
16:03:23 [alastairc]
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/17VJvnm5UQW4WUzIoo9QNPVGfePgaZa8ifZWs-wtmv7E/edit#slide=id.g306477bedd2_0_10
16:03:24 [Chuck]
Group 1: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZAC75CJPRXaplQh3ekxIYrfaZ2jkyTsDSJroxR5F5xM/edit
16:03:33 [Chuck]
Group 2: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JgjDonZEvJMc3_k_R6r3siNexeBjigQsqVxvQRhLEN8/edit?gid=0#gid=0
16:03:44 [Chuck]
Group 3: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QwSUxRm96Ez7RWbyqJEtiUa0j0ZbkfvvTpdK8x9Ww1c/edit?gid=0#gid=0
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present+
16:04:48 [Laura_Carlson]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:04:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/01-ag-minutes.html Laura_Carlson
16:05:23 [Laura_Carlson]
I need to leave, now. Bye all. Thanks.
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