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14:30:08 <Zakim> Meeting: AGWG Teleconference
14:30:10 <Chuck> chair:  Chuck
14:30:16 <Chuck> meeting:  AGWG-2024-09-30
14:30:23 <Chuck> rrsagent, generate minutes
14:30:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/01-ag-minutes.html Chuck
14:31:31 <Chuck> agenda+ TPAC Review
14:31:39 <Chuck> agenda+ Review Conformance Model Options
14:31:47 <Chuck> agenda+ Deciding on outcome formatting
14:31:53 <Chuck> agenda+ Outcome Breakouts
14:32:01 <Chuck> regrets: Bruce Bailey. Mary Jo Mueller, Makoto Ueki
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14:58:02 <Laura_Carlson> present+ Laura_Carlson
14:58:14 <Laura_Carlson> Scribe: Laura_Carlson
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15:03:12 <Laura_Carlson> Chuck: Welcome.
15:03:49 <Laura_Carlson> Chuck: Any new members? None.
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15:04:08 <Laura_Carlson> Chuck: Announcements? None
15:04:13 <Laura_Carlson> Chuck: Any new topics?
15:04:20 <Chuck> zakim, take up item 1
15:04:20 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- TPAC Review -- taken up [from Chuck]
15:04:20 <Laura_Carlson> ... None.
15:04:41 <Laura_Carlson> ... will share screen.
15:04:52 <Chuck> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/17VJvnm5UQW4WUzIoo9QNPVGfePgaZa8ifZWs-wtmv7E/edit#slide=id.g306477bedd2_0_0
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15:05:12 <ShawnT> present+
15:05:20 <Laura_Carlson> ... Slide Deck from TPAC and Minutes.
15:05:43 <Laura_Carlson> ... next steps. Individual Activity: Participants try out testing WCAG 3
15:06:03 <Laura_Carlson> ... Chairs: Try flipping % passes and fails
15:06:30 <Laura_Carlson> Group activity explained on slide.
15:06:39 <Chuck> zakim, take up next item
15:06:39 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Review Conformance Model Options -- taken up [from Chuck]
15:06:43 <Laura_Carlson> ... questions?
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15:07:00 <sarahhorton> present+
15:07:03 <Laura_Carlson> ... Conformance models to explore
15:07:23 <Laura_Carlson> ... first one is Required plus %:
15:07:33 <Glenda> present+
15:07:37 <Laura_Carlson> ... Level 1: Required outcomes;
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15:07:47 <Laura_Carlson> ...All levels above level 1 are based on %
15:07:50 <Graham> present+
15:07:51 <Detlev> present+
15:08:25 <Laura_Carlson> ... Second model is Levels: Each of 4-5 level is clearly defined; Each level has a required set of outcomes (preselected to balance functional needs)
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15:08:50 <Laura_Carlson> ... third model is Hybrid: Level 1: Required outcomes; All levels above level 1 include % AND a subset of required outcomes for that level
15:08:54 <Jen_G> Present+
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15:09:26 <Laura_Carlson> ... fourth model is Required plus functional need %: Level 1: Required outcomes; All levels above level 1 include % AND a minimum % requirement for each functional need
15:09:55 <GreggVan> q+
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15:10:10 <Laura_Carlson> ... AC put together doc with pros & cons.
15:10:22 <Laura_Carlson> AC: work in progress.
15:10:56 <Laura_Carlson> ... https://docs.google.com/document/d/17J4lkSBGBlDDLTtqJ2YcI687uNuDn_-4aeDNdnOloP4/edit#heading=h.pzyudbi3bzk1
15:10:57 <Chuck> ack Gregg
15:11:11 <alastairc> q+ on NAs
15:11:24 <Chuck> ack ala
15:11:24 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on NAs
15:11:26 <Laura_Carlson> Gregg: id something is N/A does it pass
15:11:57 <kevin> q+
15:12:07 <Laura_Carlson> AC: N/A count as pass is
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15:12:17 <Chuck> ack Kevin
15:12:58 <Laura_Carlson> Kevin: with counting failures N/A don't count as much.
15:12:59 <GreggVan> q+
15:13:12 <Chuck> ack Gregg
15:13:24 <alastairc> counting fails turns the numbers around, but it doesn't affect NAs as such. You either have to count them as part of the whole, or not.
15:13:24 <mbgower> Is that occurrences of a fail, or number of requirements not met?
15:13:29 <Laura_Carlson> Gregg: are failures non-passing of an outcome?
15:13:29 <Graham> q+
15:13:32 <Rachael> present+
15:13:34 <alastairc> Not instances, outcomes
15:13:34 <Laura_Carlson> Chuck: yes.
15:13:41 <Chuck> ack Grah
15:14:02 <alastairc> q+ on option 2
15:14:09 <Chuck> ack ala
15:14:09 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on option 2
15:14:11 <Laura_Carlson> Graham: How would counting failures work with number 2?
15:14:54 <Graham> q+
15:14:55 <Laura_Carlson> Ac: this isn't instances. It is whether an outcome is met or not.
15:14:59 <Chuck> ack Grah
15:15:01 <ChrisLoiselle> q+
15:15:37 <ChrisLoiselle> question on this slide vs. https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/pull/112#issuecomment-2377452956 and my comment there.
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15:15:40 <Chuck> ack Chris
15:16:54 <alastairc> q+ on how it relates to A/AA etc and pre-req / baseline
15:16:56 <Laura_Carlson> Chris: Slide 49. How does it relate to AA, AAA and A?
15:17:36 <Laura_Carlson> ... terminology mapping question.
15:17:39 <Chuck> ack ala
15:17:39 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on how it relates to A/AA etc and pre-req / baseline
15:18:04 <Laura_Carlson> AC: we are trying to settle terminology.
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15:18:57 <Laura_Carlson> ... Required is what we had like combo of pre requests and baseline.
15:19:14 <Laura_Carlson> ... Somewhat different than A. AA, AAA.
15:19:22 <Graham> q+
15:19:26 <Chuck> ack Graham
15:19:38 <Detlev> has bronze / silver / gold been dumped for good?
15:19:58 <alastairc> Detlev - no, we're just not naming that yet.
15:20:10 <Laura_Carlson> Graham: #2 puts us back into the situation that we are in now.
15:20:20 <alastairc> q+ on option 2
15:20:28 <Laura_Carlson> ... where people get discouraged.
15:20:33 <Chuck> ack ala
15:20:33 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on option 2
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15:20:53 <scott> present+
15:20:57 <Graham> q+
15:20:59 <Laura_Carlson> AC: it is an obvious con on option 2.
15:21:02 <Chuck> ack Grah
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15:21:43 <Laura_Carlson> Graham: could have a subset of things.
15:21:58 <Chuck> q?
15:22:08 <Laura_Carlson> ... hybrid of 3&4.
15:22:11 <Chuck> zakim, take up next item
15:22:11 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Deciding on outcome formatting -- taken up [from Chuck]
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15:22:45 <Laura_Carlson> Chuck: GitHub Discussion
15:23:45 <Laura_Carlson> AC: we went thru various options.
15:23:52 <Laura_Carlson> ... Revising existing structure
15:24:07 <Laura_Carlson> ...Finding a need to organize content by a higher grouping
15:24:20 <Laura_Carlson> ... We have been referring to those as outcomes but we suggest better aligning the language since the technical format we decided on isn’t an “outcome”
15:24:33 <Laura_Carlson> ... Suggested way forward:
15:24:43 <Laura_Carlson> ...Outcomes: Plain language, user-oriented statements of the desired outcome; grouping the guidelines
15:24:49 <Laura_Carlson> ...Guidelines: Technical statements to meet each outcome
15:25:11 <Laura_Carlson> ... example: Outcome: Users can see which element has keyboard focus.
15:25:11 <Laura_Carlson> Guidelines:
15:25:26 <Laura_Carlson> ... Present
15:25:32 <Detlev> q+
15:25:38 <Laura_Carlson> ...Not obscured: The focus indicator is not obscured or partially obscured (more than 50%, TBC)
15:25:45 <Laura_Carlson> ...Persistent: The focus indicator persists while the element has focus, but does not persist after the element loses focus.
15:25:47 <Graham> q+
15:25:52 <Laura_Carlson> ... Distinctive: The keyboard focus indicator uses a style that is distinct from the style of other controls, so that the item in focus can be distinguished without reference to the non-focused state.
15:25:53 <julierawe> q+
15:25:54 <Chuck> ack Detlev
15:25:59 <Laura_Carlson> ... Sufficiently visible: According to the specific method (below), the indicator must be visually discernible whilst navigating.
15:26:12 <Graham> q-
15:26:20 <dan_bjorge> +1 to detlev
15:26:25 <Graham> 100% - that was my recommendatiuon - requirement!
15:26:38 <Laura_Carlson> Detlev: don't understand why guideline is better that requirements.
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15:26:50 <Chuck> ack julie
15:26:51 <Rachael> Q+
15:26:54 <GreggVan> q+
15:26:57 <Laura_Carlson> AC: they are not phrased as outcomes.
15:27:02 <Frankie> Present+
15:27:04 <sarahhorton> Requirements that produce the outcome
15:27:11 <Rain> +1 they are written as requirements, and requirements is nice and clear
15:27:17 <Laura_Carlson> Julie: outcome is a little confusing.
15:27:22 <Chuck> ack Rach
15:27:42 <julierawe> "Guidelines" is confusing
15:27:46 <Chuck> q?
15:27:48 <Chuck> ack Gregg
15:27:53 <Laura_Carlson> AC one concern with it,
15:28:25 <Laura_Carlson> GreggVan: I'd like to speak for using guidelines.
15:29:22 <sarahhorton> Silver had guidelines > outcomes > methods/requirements
15:29:27 <Chuck> did we lose me?
15:29:30 <Laura_Carlson> ... guidelines allows some things to be  required or and somethings that are not testable.
15:30:04 <Detlev> q+
15:30:16 <alastairc> q+ on examples not include assertions - so it's a good piont
15:30:32 <wendyreid> present+
15:30:51 <Laura_Carlson> ... could have minimums are required and other are things that you can do.
15:30:59 <kevin> +1 to minimum - I like this slightly better than "prerequisite" although I do get that "prerequisite" is trying to say something slightly different
15:31:01 <Chuck> q+ to ask if we must stick with one "word" as a description?
15:31:06 <Graham> Required, recommended - simple and straight forward language. Required are for a pass, recommended could (not necessarily) then be used for further scoring if we use one of those models.
15:31:12 <ljoakley> present+
15:31:13 <Chuck> ack Detlev
15:31:32 <kevin> q+
15:32:02 <Graham> Detlev is bang on with terms that work in my mind, literally just said the same!
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15:32:08 <dan_bjorge> q+
15:32:10 <GreggVan> q+
15:32:11 <Chuck> ack ala
15:32:13 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on examples not include assertions - so it's a good piont
15:32:16 <Laura_Carlson> Detlev: seems counter intuitive. Could use requirements, recommendations, and assertions.
15:32:20 <kevin> q- later
15:32:50 <ljoakley> q+
15:33:17 <Chuck> ack Ch
15:33:17 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to ask if we must stick with one "word" as a description?
15:33:21 <Laura_Carlson> Ac:  Somewhat baffled . guidelines has been used for many, many, years.
15:33:43 <Laura_Carlson> Chuck: does it have to be a one word?
15:33:49 <Chuck> ack dan
15:33:51 <Rachael> Q+
15:33:54 <kevin> -1 to multiple words
15:34:01 <Detlev> @AC yes sure but for a higher level
15:34:20 <Chuck> ack Gregg
15:34:24 <Laura_Carlson> Dan :has different meaning in WCAG 2
15:35:10 <Rachael> +1 to GreggVan
15:35:11 <Laura_Carlson> Gregg: like outcomes, guidelines , requirements, recommendations, and assertions.
15:35:13 <alastairc> In WCAG 2 the "guidelines" are the groupings for sets of SC.
15:35:45 <Chuck> ack kevin
15:35:57 <Laura_Carlson> ... 3 kinds of guidelines: requirements, recommendations, and assertions.
15:35:57 <Chuck> ack ljo
15:35:58 <alastairc> q+ to suggest we don't title the list of things on the face of the spec.
15:36:40 <kevin> qq+
15:37:00 <Chuck> q+ to say if we name it for ourselves and just ourselves, I'm ok with any options mentioned, favorable to requirements
15:37:40 <Laura_Carlson> LO: Guidelines may not be the best term. Some people don't think that they are definitive.
15:37:42 <Chuck> ack Rach
15:37:50 <Jennie_Delisi> I think this points to putting more than word, per Chuck's option, if possible.
15:38:11 <Chuck> ack ala
15:38:11 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to suggest we don't title the list of things on the face of the spec.
15:38:12 <Laura_Carlson> RM: ice if we had a term for the differences. Liked Gregg's comment.
15:38:15 <Detlev> +1 to ljoakley
15:38:38 <Rain> q+
15:38:55 <Chuck> ack kevin
15:38:55 <Zakim> kevin, you wanted to react to ljoakley
15:38:55 <Laura_Carlson> Ac: suggest not putting a name on the face of the spec for this.
15:39:36 <wendyreid> q+
15:39:44 <Chuck> ack Ch
15:39:44 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to say if we name it for ourselves and just ourselves, I'm ok with any options mentioned, favorable to requirements
15:39:56 <wendyreid> q-
15:40:18 <Laura_Carlson> Kevin: we are aware that legislators will sue. Challenge against w3c rec. but recognition that they are standards.
15:40:44 <Laura_Carlson> AC: maybe we can work on this without giving this a name.
15:40:52 <Chuck> ack Rain
15:41:10 <Glenda> another word to consider “Standard”
15:41:26 <Laura_Carlson> Rain: Maybe use use a simple header.
15:42:39 <Graham> q+
15:43:26 <Detlev> +1 to Rain
15:43:35 <Laura_Carlson> ... experiences with people in the wild are direct experiences. Need to explain things on a basic level. General population perspective is valuable.
15:43:36 <Chuck> +1 to proposed resolution, which I will test after queue
15:44:02 <Chuck> ack Grah
15:44:03 <Laura_Carlson> ... put this on our list of topics.
15:44:35 <alastairc> We do have a glossary in development.
15:44:38 <Laura_Carlson> Graham: let's create a glossary for the time being.
15:45:12 <Laura_Carlson> Chuck: need to have some level of consensus.
15:45:13 <Chuck> q?
15:45:15 <julierawe> q+
15:45:17 <Rachael> Q+
15:45:19 <Chuck> ack Julie
15:45:34 <Chuck> ack Rach
15:46:04 <Rain> +1 to structure of sentence and technical statement below it
15:46:09 <wendyreid> +1
15:46:09 <ljoakley> Rachael 1+
15:46:10 <Chuck> +1
15:46:14 <Graham> =1
15:46:14 <Laura_Carlson> RM: what of you think of the structure of the sentence.
15:46:16 <Graham> +1
15:46:17 <GreggVan> q+
15:46:21 <Chuck> ack Gregg
15:46:55 <Detlev> the hundred plus outcomes so far collected are fairly fine-grained - so will they move up in granularity?
15:47:09 <Chuck> draft RESOLUTION: For the next publication, we will use "Outcome" (user-focused outcomes) to group the requirements and assertions. We will explore terminology for the requirement/assertion level in future.
15:47:10 <Laura_Carlson> Gregg: Guidelines is in the name of our document
15:47:41 <wendyreid> +1
15:47:43 <Graham> +1 (but we must link to a glossary of terms)
15:47:44 <julierawe> +1
15:47:44 <Rain> +1
15:47:45 <ljoakley> +1
15:47:45 <Detlev> +1
15:47:48 <Rachael> +1
15:47:48 <alastairc> +1
15:47:49 <ShawnT> +1
15:47:50 <GreggVan> +1!
15:47:51 <Jennie_Delisi> 0 only because outcome often equals results
15:47:52 <kevin> +1
15:47:52 <Chuck> +1 (and agree with Graham)
15:47:53 <sarahhorton> +1
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15:47:59 <dan_bjorge> +1
15:48:00 <Laura_Carlson> Laura: +1
15:48:01 <filippo-zorzi> +1
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15:48:03 <Francis_Storr> +1
15:48:08 <scott0> 0
15:48:09 <ChrisLoiselle> 0
15:48:15 <Jen_G> +1
15:48:31 <Chuck> RESOLUTION: For the next publication, we will use "Outcome" (user-focused outcomes) to group the requirements and assertions. We will explore terminology for the requirement/assertion level in future.
15:48:33 <kirkwood> =1
15:48:48 <kirkwood> +1
15:49:04 <kevin> s/=1//
15:49:10 <kevin> q+
15:49:11 <alastairc> q+ on PR, we'll need to overhaul that
15:49:21 <kevin> q- later
15:49:22 <Chuck> ack Kevin
15:49:30 <Laura_Carlson> Julie: pull request for outcomes.
15:49:39 <ChrisLoiselle> +1 to that statement Julie made.
15:49:55 <Chuck> ack ala
15:49:56 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on PR, we'll need to overhaul that
15:50:10 <Laura_Carlson> Kevin: I'm looking at it now. We can make changes going forward.
15:50:23 <Chuck> zakim, take up next item
15:50:23 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Outcome Breakouts -- taken up [from Chuck]
15:51:24 <Laura_Carlson> Chuck: 3 separate groups.
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15:51:34 <GreggVan> q+
15:51:47 <Laura_Carlson> .... Group 1: Refine outcome and guideline organization
15:51:59 <Laura_Carlson> ... Group 2: Refine outcomes statements to match agreed upon format
15:52:08 <Laura_Carlson> ... Group 3: Categorize as Required and Enhanced to help with testing conformance and forming subgroups
15:52:10 <MelanieP> q+
15:52:19 <Laura_Carlson> ... We are still at exploratory for this exercise
15:52:27 <Laura_Carlson> ... We need clarity and consistency but not perfection
15:52:30 <Chuck> ack Gregg
15:52:33 <Laura_Carlson> ... Editors will combine the results
15:52:53 <Laura_Carlson> Gregg: Group 3 doesn't make any sense.
15:53:35 <Chuck> ack Melanie
15:53:54 <Laura_Carlson> Chuck: we are deciding at the if the "thingy" is required or not.
15:54:02 <alastairc> q+ on bronze / pre-req / required
15:54:13 <Chuck> ack ala
15:54:13 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on bronze / pre-req / required
15:54:40 <Laura_Carlson> Melanie: How does this relate to bronze, silver, gold?
15:55:08 <Laura_Carlson> ... (explains history)
15:56:58 <Laura_Carlson> ... Kind of dropped them.. Not trying to recreate a, aa aaa.
15:56:59 <ChrisLoiselle> bronze, silver, gold, a, aa, aaa , pre req, baseline, enhanced - is there a mapping reference that compare of all these? I know this is iterative.
15:57:40 <Laura_Carlson> ... we are so far away from WCAG 2.
15:57:51 <Rachael> Q+
15:58:01 <ChrisLoiselle> https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/pull/112#issuecomment-2377452956 has a list of questions that relate to Melanie's questions , I look forward to those answers to understand this more fully.
15:58:06 <Laura_Carlson> ... way more in baseline for WCAG 3
15:58:08 <Chuck> ack Rach
15:58:42 <julierawe> I have to drop for a work meeting. Have a good week, everybody!
15:58:45 <Laura_Carlson> RM: A future activity would be a mapping.
15:59:42 <kevin> scribe+
15:59:50 <kevin> scribe-
16:00:14 <MJ> I have to drop off for a meeting but will rejoin in 30 minutes.
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16:00:33 <alastairc> q+ to answer Chris's questions, briefly.
16:00:40 <Laura_Carlson> Chuck:  1 & 3 are self explanatory.
16:00:44 <Chuck> q?
16:00:48 <Chuck> ack ala
16:00:48 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to answer Chris's questions, briefly.
16:01:03 <alastairc> https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/pull/112
16:01:08 <Laura_Carlson> ... correction: 2 & 3 are self explanatory
16:01:55 <Laura_Carlson> AC: we have grouped prerequisite an baseline together.
16:02:10 <Laura_Carlson> ... they are in required/
16:02:19 <ChrisLoiselle> thanks.
16:03:04 <Laura_Carlson> ... any questions?
16:03:23 <alastairc> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/17VJvnm5UQW4WUzIoo9QNPVGfePgaZa8ifZWs-wtmv7E/edit#slide=id.g306477bedd2_0_10
16:03:24 <Chuck> Group 1:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZAC75CJPRXaplQh3ekxIYrfaZ2jkyTsDSJroxR5F5xM/edit
16:03:33 <Chuck> Group 2:  https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JgjDonZEvJMc3_k_R6r3siNexeBjigQsqVxvQRhLEN8/edit?gid=0#gid=0
16:03:44 <Chuck> Group 3:  https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QwSUxRm96Ez7RWbyqJEtiUa0j0ZbkfvvTpdK8x9Ww1c/edit?gid=0#gid=0
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16:04:48 <Laura_Carlson> rrsagent, make minutes
16:04:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/10/01-ag-minutes.html Laura_Carlson
16:05:23 <Laura_Carlson> I need to leave, now. Bye all. Thanks.
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