12:02:12 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #coga
12:02:17 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/30-coga-irc
12:02:17 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:02:18 <Zakim> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
12:04:24 <lisa> agenda+ scribe. see:  https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Scribe_list
12:04:54 <lisa> agenda+ Ctaur  : can we meet today?
12:05:08 <lisa> agenda+ Ctaur  : When can we rap up the feedback
12:05:30 <lisa> agenda+ Structure summary
12:05:48 <lisa> agenda+ What are we missing and what can we add (audit from studies)
12:05:48 <lisa> .
12:06:09 <lisa> agenda+ What are we missing - review ideas for next week
12:06:09 <lisa> .
12:07:21 <lisa> Agenda+ Tpac take aways
12:08:26 <lisa> agenda order is 7 1 2 3 4 5 6
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14:51:18 <lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
14:51:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/30-coga-minutes.html lisa
14:51:39 <lisa> agenda?
14:53:09 <lisa> agenda order is 1 2 3 7 4 5 6
14:54:57 <lisa> q?
15:00:40 <Rain> Rain has joined #coga
15:00:56 <Jennie> Jennie has joined #coga
15:02:07 <lisa> take up item 1
15:02:14 <Jennie> present+
15:02:27 <lisa> scribe+ jennie, lisa
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15:02:33 <lisa> present+
15:02:35 <julierawe> present+
15:02:43 <lisa> next item
15:02:48 <lisa> close item 1
15:02:51 <Rain> present+
15:02:53 <lisa> next item
15:02:58 <Jennie> Lisa: People can sign up to scribe on the list, then it doesn't need to be an agenda item
15:03:19 <lisa> take up item 4
15:04:09 <Jennie> Lisa:  question 1 - do we want to meet today?
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15:04:14 <lisa> take up item 2
15:04:19 <Jennie> ...that is in reference to the CTAUR
15:04:20 <DavidSwallow> present+
15:04:26 <Jennie> ...after this call
15:04:52 <Jennie> ...or is there a better time. We need to tell them when we will get back to them.
15:04:59 <Jennie> John K: I can meet
15:05:07 <Jennie> David: I can meet for a half an hour
15:05:14 <Jennie> Lisa: let's meet for a half hour, get next steps
15:05:53 <Jennie> ...Can Jennie review asynchronously?
15:05:57 <Jennie> Jennie: not until Friday
15:06:10 <Jennie> Lisa: OK, that's helpful information.
15:06:29 <Jennie> ...What about next Monday after the call to wrap things up?
15:07:38 <Jennie> ...then we could have a meeting for anyone who can meet for a half hour
15:07:40 <tiffanyburtin> tiffanyburtin has joined #coga
15:07:44 <tiffanyburtin> present+
15:07:47 <rashmi> rashmi has joined #coga
15:07:48 <Jennie> ...And I can give a half hour during the call
15:07:51 <Jennie> David: works for me
15:07:57 <Jennie> Lisa: any objections?
15:08:00 <rashmi> Present+
15:08:09 <lisa> next item
15:08:36 <Jennie> Lisa: I think we can wrap up feedback by end of next week
15:08:41 <Jennie> David: I think that will work.
15:08:47 <Jennie> ...mid to end of next week
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15:09:14 <Frankie> present+
15:09:15 <lisa> next item
15:10:07 <Jennie> Julie: a couple of highlights
15:10:19 <Jennie> ...#1 - Monday looked back at the past 6 months of decisions
15:10:37 <Jennie> ...some discussion about the way accessibility guidelines working group is putting summaries into Github threads
15:11:01 <Jennie> ...I shared it can be daunting to participate in the meetings, even with these summaries.
15:11:13 <Jennie> ...It was a thoughtful discussion
15:11:26 <Jennie> ...#2 - Monday afternoon and most of Tuesday - conformance
15:11:36 <Jennie> ...We went through a "broken" website
15:11:49 <Jennie> ...We thought about - if there is a webpage with a video with no captions
15:11:56 <Jennie> ...This helped us discuss conformance levels.
15:12:27 <Jennie> ...We discussed: should we separate a conformance model
15:12:45 <Jennie> ...#3 I went to the joint meeting with accessibility guidelines working group and internationalization
15:12:54 <lisa> agenda+ is our agenda page good? should we request something similar to ag. how can we support it?
15:12:56 <Jennie> ...topic focused on when do they want to get involved in drafts
15:13:03 <Jennie> ...Answer: early, but not too early
15:13:13 <Jennie> ...for WCAG 3 they want it after exploratory
15:13:22 <Jennie> ...Moving into the 3rd phase
15:13:48 <Jennie> ...We also introduced attendees to the new subgroups, and the community group, and encouraged people to join
15:14:01 <Jennie> John K: I joined that as well
15:14:35 <Jennie> ....I commend Julie on how we can connect with them, and the timelines
15:14:43 <Rain> q+
15:14:44 <Jennie> ...We should work with them more
15:14:57 <lisa> ack next
15:15:05 <Jennie> Rain: the summaries were good.
15:15:20 <Jennie> ...Re internationalization: there was emphasis from them that they want everything in Github
15:15:33 <Jennie> ...Well supported by Chuck as the accessibility guidelines working group chair
15:15:43 <Jennie> ...we explained that Github is not accessible for our group.
15:16:18 <rashmi> q+
15:16:22 <Jennie> ...We got to agreement (as well as with ARIA) - maybe we could have more of a structure for inviting them to meetings strategically
15:16:33 <julierawe> ?+
15:16:36 <julierawe> q+
15:16:40 <Jennie> ...then they can take the task of getting items added into Github. No formal agreement, but discussion
15:16:47 <Jennie> ...A good desire by all groups to work together.
15:17:11 <Jennie> ...The other take-away I had is the challenge of conformance
15:17:20 <Jennie> ...How does the COGA task force define harm?
15:17:43 <Jennie> ...During the exercise Julie mentioned - the group I was in was heavy on those very impacted by barriers
15:18:19 <Jennie> ...Our scores indicated the severity of the failures the most compared to other groups, possibly because of the focus on harm.
15:18:22 <lisa> q+ to ask for link to summaries /scedule and time table it
15:18:24 <tiffanyburtin> q+ tpac exercise
15:19:00 <Jennie> ...Currently: everything is marked "the worst" which means that nothing becomes highlighted as "the worst."
15:19:08 <Jennie> ...Then, no progress can be made.
15:19:24 <Jennie> ...I think the COGA task force understands harm differently than other groups.
15:19:36 <Jennie> ....Maybe we should try to define harm to help conformance discussions move forward.
15:19:46 <Jennie> Lisa: Julie - do you think there is a time limit for this?
15:19:53 <Jennie> ...Would October 14th work?
15:19:55 <kirkwood> +1 to Rain
15:20:10 <Jennie> Julie: The conformance conversation is part of the accessibility guidelines call tomorrow.
15:20:30 <Jennie> ...I agree with Rain - this is in early conversations. There are conversations around safety, like flashing.
15:20:46 <Jennie> ...There was 1 conversation about usability vs accessibility
15:21:06 <Jennie> ...But I think that somehow expressing confusing navigation for the most important piece of information on a page.
15:21:23 <Jennie> ...I think Gregg was supporting the idea that having information that is easy to understand and find being essential.
15:21:40 <Jennie> Lisa: as a date, provisionally, to have that discussion on the agenda.
15:22:00 <Rain> q+
15:22:19 <Jennie> Julie: re internationalization - Rain had mentioned the desire to do everything through Github.
15:22:40 <Jennie> ...The internationalization group would like us to use a "short checklist" - which is not short, but links to other checklists.
15:22:54 <Jennie> ...They want us to go through this before we submit anything, which feels like a lot
15:22:57 <Frankie> Frankie has joined #coga
15:23:05 <Jennie> ...They see this as a solution, I see it as a lot of work.
15:23:11 <Jennie> John K: I second what Julie is saying
15:23:33 <Jennie> Lisa: Julie - can you put links for the schedules
15:23:34 <Justine> Justine has joined #coga
15:23:44 <Jennie> ...for internationalization
15:23:48 <Jennie> ...and the checklist
15:23:57 <Jennie> ...I will put it on the things to go onto future agendas
15:24:10 <Jennie> Julie: I can.
15:24:14 <kirkwood> we should really look at those
15:24:39 <Jennie> Lisa: I would like Jan to be on the call at the same time.
15:25:19 <Jennie> ...If anything else people want to discuss we can put on a future agenda.
15:25:41 <lisa> ack next
15:25:50 <Rain> ack Rain
15:25:58 <Jennie> Rashmi: I attended for a short period
15:25:59 <julierawe> Internationalization has requested we do a self-review before submitting any drafts to them: https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/issues/new?assignees=&labels=REVIEW+REQUESTED%2CSR%2Cpending&projects=&template=request-a-self-review-check.yml&title=Spec_name+2023-mm-dd
15:26:04 <Jennie> ...There was a conversation about diagnoses
15:26:14 <Jennie> ...There are some parallel functional needs
15:26:23 <Jennie> ...We should take care of that in our group, I think
15:26:29 <Jennie> Lisa: Yes.
15:26:29 <julierawe> Internationalization also shared its "short checklist" that includes links to longer checklists: https://www.w3.org/International/i18n-drafts/techniques/shortchecklist
15:26:36 <Jennie> ...Do you feel we should discuss it more?
15:26:46 <Jennie> Rashmi: I think it is important. You put useful points
15:27:03 <Jennie> Lisa: We should on the pending agendas functional needs vs diagnosis
15:27:15 <Jennie> ...and maybe memorialize it in our language section.
15:27:28 <Jennie> Rashmi: yes.
15:27:39 <lisa> ack next
15:27:40 <Jennie> Lisa: I will also follow up what is happening with the functional needs task force
15:27:48 <lisa> ack next
15:27:49 <Zakim> lisa, you wanted to ask for link to summaries /scedule and time table it
15:28:04 <lisa> q-
15:28:13 <lisa> ack next
15:28:21 <lisa> (tiffiany)
15:28:32 <Jennie> Tiffany: in the future when these types of exercises happen, there needs to be short, simple, clear expectations for the test we will do
15:28:51 <Jennie> ...My group: it seemed like we didn't have consensus on what we should be doing
15:29:03 <Jennie> ...We defaulted to WCAG 2.2 style, then applied it to how hard it would be
15:29:11 <Jennie> ...Some of us scored it harder than others
15:29:25 <kirkwood> +1
15:29:26 <Jennie> ...I think we need to get across how difficult navigating the web is when you have lived experience
15:29:42 <lisa> +1
15:30:08 <Jennie> John K: I find it difficult to navigate around the rooms - it would good to have COGA people around in all the different rooms
15:30:19 <Jennie> ...Finding Zoom links was often difficult in the ecosystem
15:30:35 <Jennie> ...In the past we have had a side chat for COGA people to help find Zoom links
15:30:44 <Jennie> ...It would be helpful for the future
15:31:02 <Rain> q+
15:31:07 <lisa> ack next
15:31:09 <Jennie> Lisa:  I will copy that to my to-do list
15:31:21 <Jennie> Rain: To add to what John shared
15:31:39 <Jennie> q+
15:32:22 <Jennie> Rain: it might be good for future TPACs to have the COGA task force look at or participate in the layout of the scheduling
15:32:28 <Jennie> ...to try to make it more navigable
15:32:34 <kirkwood> +1
15:32:37 <lisa> ack next
15:32:45 <Rain> ack Rain
15:33:28 <lisa> ack next
15:33:45 <Jennie> Jennie: I added difficulties I had with the calendar time zones into my feedback in the surveys. I encourage members to share as appropriate in those as well.
15:34:05 <Jennie> Lisa: Sounds like the conformance and harm conversation is the highest priority
15:34:17 <Jennie> ....Might be worth making a proposal.
15:34:40 <lisa> next item
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15:35:09 <Jennie> Rain: We have significantly more qualitative information that came out of the studies than we anticipated.
15:35:22 <Jennie> ...We need to adjust our timing to understand it all.
15:35:35 <Jennie> ...I will share high level findings - from skimming through everything
15:35:41 <lisa> Q+ to ask if th enalisis of all the papers?
15:35:41 <Jennie> ...Thank you to those who jumped  in
15:35:51 <kirkwood> present+
15:35:51 <Jennie> ...Eric has been very helpful getting the group going
15:35:58 <Jennie> ...Alastair jumped in as well
15:36:23 <Jennie> ...A lot of the data will help more than just COGA
15:36:31 <Jennie> ...It could benefit all W3C publications.
15:36:48 <Jennie> ...I also had excellent conversations with Kevin White and Tamsin
15:36:55 <Jennie> ...to talk about the goals of the study.
15:36:58 <lisa> Q+ to still requesting access
15:37:06 <Jennie> ...Tamsin will work with Shawn to figure out what to do
15:37:27 <Jennie> ...After the discussion with Kevin - there are complexities with making changes to the design style
15:37:42 <Jennie> ...This week: I will explore some design iterations that address the high level feedback
15:38:00 <Jennie> ...Then I will meet with Kevin and Tamsin to understand what the complexities are within the W3C design system
15:38:07 <Jennie> ...To help understand potential blocks.
15:38:21 <Jennie> ...Then we can bring it back to this task force for analysis
15:38:59 <lisa> ack next
15:39:00 <Zakim> lisa, you wanted to ask if th enalisis of all the papers? and to still requesting access
15:39:18 <Jennie> Lisa: do you still need people to do the analysis for the user feedback?
15:39:22 <Jennie> Rain: yes. We have a lot.
15:39:28 <Jennie> Lisa: I still don't have access
15:39:40 <Jennie> ...I have sent another request.
15:39:58 <Jennie> Rain: I will make sure you have access right now.
15:40:18 <lisa> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1488tG8loN-lmJ9vJT9nAlIVnbyyLVd27VeIkFferrQs/edit
15:40:37 <Jennie> Rain: Eric did a nice write up in a table form of the steps
15:40:38 <Rain> Triage spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ivrG_nl0Ox90hoMv9yHj1yt5-pbw-pmKXmdZ_epCwz4/edit?usp=sharing
15:41:19 <Jennie> Lisa: I should have time next week if anyone wants a working meeting where we work at the same time.
15:41:25 <Jennie> ...Sometimes helpful
15:41:51 <Jennie> John K: I would find it helpful.
15:42:34 <Jennie> Rain: the spreadsheet shows who is taking on each section to triage.
15:42:46 <Jennie> ...Please add your name next to any you are working on.
15:42:56 <Jennie> ...This is up to date in real time.
15:43:33 <Jennie> ...There is a section in the meeting minutes which starts with "The Ask:"
15:43:43 <lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
15:43:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/30-coga-minutes.html lisa
15:43:51 <Jennie> ...This describes the steps to triaging
15:44:08 <lisa> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1488tG8loN-lmJ9vJT9nAlIVnbyyLVd27VeIkFferrQs/edit  -link to the ask from stucture
15:44:38 <Rain> q?
15:44:40 <Jennie> Rain: any other questions?
15:45:07 <Jennie> Rain: again, only high level overview
15:45:16 <Jennie> ...Themes I was able to see quickly from reviewing data
15:45:38 <Jennie> ...Participants: 18 which is a lot for hour long sessions
15:46:00 <Jennie> ...Self proclaimed role: personal interest = 15
15:46:16 <Jennie> ...(Rain continued reviewing the list)
15:46:39 <Jennie> ...Only 1 identified as care provider,  however, I think that will go up because of information shared during the sessions.
15:46:49 <Jennie> ...This may impact other numbers as well
15:46:49 <lisa> agenda?
15:47:08 <Jennie> John K: was the terminology of "care provider" the issue?
15:47:20 <Jennie> Rain: that was the short name - it was whatever we put in the survey
15:47:43 <Jennie> ...11 said 4 plus years in familiarity with cognitive accessibility as a concept
15:47:52 <lisa> Q?
15:47:58 <Jennie> ...Some people dropped out which may have impacted our ability to get newer people
15:48:30 <Jennie> ...Familiarity with Making Content Usable: 7 very, 5some, new 6
15:48:38 <Jennie> ...9 text to speech users
15:48:56 <Jennie> ...8 each for visual reading aids or high contrast mode
15:49:17 <Jennie> ...There are question marks next to diagnoses disclosed during the interviews
15:49:49 <Jennie> ...good spread of these given this type of work.
15:50:39 <Jennie> ...All familiar with W3C materials shared that the improvements they were noticing would be helpful for all of the TR formatting, not just the COGA ones
15:50:56 <Jennie> ...High level themes:
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15:51:11 <Jennie> ...1: Need both TOC and the "small buckets"
15:51:24 <Jennie> ...that can be brought forward by the individual and put away at will
15:51:35 <Jennie> ...Also need the "small buckets" model - more multi-page
15:52:59 <Jennie> ...1 version of the small buckets: big buttons at the bottom
15:53:14 <Jennie> ...Having it above the fold for the majority of users would be helpful
15:53:42 <Jennie> ...We also had an introduction model.
15:53:50 <Jennie> ....This was followed by a list that was clickable.
15:53:55 <Jennie> ...This was helpful for people.
15:54:33 <Jennie> *@Lisa - ready to take over scribing?
15:55:03 <lisa> thanks jennie
15:55:14 <lisa> finding: people loved the roles
15:55:53 <lisa> but... they didnt like the terms on the roles becuse people cant find themselves
15:56:18 <lisa> so changed to stages in process, but that was worse
15:56:49 <lisa> need to work on names of the roles, less jargon
15:57:15 <lisa> people liked the chucking buckets
15:57:38 <lisa> but scafolding as a term failed as only education know what we ment
15:57:49 <lisa> navigation was also confucing rather then table of content
15:58:03 <lisa> icons good, but need work
15:58:29 <lisa> clarity between section helped.
15:58:47 <lisa> colaping sections were good so lomg and contol f works
15:59:11 <lisa> we can impove linked to sections
15:59:21 <lisa> more in the doc
15:59:34 <lisa> and then need to find out what is realistic
15:59:47 <lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
15:59:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/30-coga-minutes.html lisa
16:00:46 <lisa> also think of what is missing in the conent
16:00:54 <lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
16:00:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/30-coga-minutes.html lisa
16:01:39 <lisa> topic: CTaur
16:01:45 <lisa> our feedback is https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dFjMfobPdWUz0a-wm6NQKN_nRXVjSLvJlHcgFF0SnHc/edit