00:00:12 mm: my understanding is that we would have to register all the contexts to be used with a registry maintained by the JSON-LD group 00:00:43 ... most compressed would be hand-rolled 00:00:43 ... but can't support change over time 00:01:04 seb: but also means a generic CBOR decoder would not work 00:01:49 ben: however it does operate in a constrained environment, for example it can work in barcode readers, and CBOR is small enough to be encoded in QR codes, etc. 00:01:54 q+ 00:02:56 mm: having a set of contexts in the registry has other benefits, eg. we can specify prefixes 00:03:04 gk: they also need to be immutable 00:03:13 mm: imo they should be anyway 00:03:28 q+ 00:04:12 -> https://json-ld.github.io/cbor-ld-spec/#registry CBOR-LD 00:04:13 gk: can still use context that are not in the registry, just not as compressed 00:04:50 mm: are there any limits in the number of things in the registry? 00:05:09 gk: terms are in the map, which is constructed dynamically 00:05:28 ... only contexts need to be registered, numbers are assigned to terms dynamically 00:06:31 mm: any gotchas in mapping to CBOR, e.g. internationalization strings? 00:06:48 gk: not that I'm aware of, although there are things in CBOR that don't map to JSON 00:07:04 seb: what is the process, an email? 00:07:17 ben: we plan to set up a registry with its own process to add things 00:07:30 ... will include statement of immutability, and a hash 00:07:56 mm: but we can still version, right? 00:08:04 gk: yes, using versioned urls is fine 00:08:06 q? 00:09:16 ben: there is also YAML-LD, which should also be equivalent 00:10:01 ... and actually JSON is a subset of YAML syntax... technically 00:10:47 mm: I also assume the new syntax for JSON-LD-Star with work with CBOR-LD, etc? 00:10:57 ben: yes, can use some reserved keyword slots 00:12:02 EgeKorkan has joined #wot 00:12:16 mm: for WoT, techically we define an information model with serialization as JSON-LD, so we could just add additional serializations 00:12:58 seb: comments? 00:13:23 q+ 00:13:33 ben: comments don't go into the graph by default, but are allowed in YAML, but ignored in conversion to other formats 00:13:37 ack m 00:14:43 ben: some future work for language tags, etc. but are very YAML-specific, would not be able to paste in JSON 00:15:19 ack k 00:15:49 seb: so you will recharter in 1-2 years, right? 00:16:10 gk: yes, but gated behind RDF-Star, and at least 3mo after that 00:17:11 mm: we *could* publish an appendix that just adds a serialization, rather than re-opening the TD spec. 00:17:20 RRSAgent, draft minutes 00:17:21 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-wot-minutes.html TallTed 00:17:37 subtopic: Canonicalization 00:18:04 seb: need to trust that the TD is correct, would like signed TDs... 00:18:18 gk: sounds like you would want a VC 00:18:19 q+ 00:18:30 gk: and yes, that uses RDF canonicalization 00:18:44 q+ 00:20:22 q- 00:20:22 mm: issue is that we would like to work on constrained devices 00:20:32 i|starting joint meeting|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-09-tpac/2024-09-26-WoT-TPAC-JSON-LD-Sebastian.pdf Slides| 00:21:00 ben: JWT could be used... 00:21:17 mm: what we were thinking, but would specify prefixes 00:21:29 q+ to talk about limitation when creating value chains from sensors 00:21:33 ben: uses JCS... 00:21:49 present+ Denken_Chen 00:22:32 mm: we did look but realized we needed to do a bit more work e.g. for default values 00:22:44 denkeni has joined #wot 00:22:50 gk: might be able to use selective disclosure 00:23:47 q+ 00:23:49 mm: was thinking that we could sign just the template slots as a key-value map plus a link to the TM 00:24:16 ben: in VC we talk about envelop proofs and embedded proofs 00:24:41 ... data integrity would include a proof, can be read as JSON 00:24:57 ... wheras an envelope takes work to unpack 00:25:28 sebastian8 has joined #wot 00:25:31 q? 00:25:42 ack M 00:26:33 ack r 00:26:34 rigo: when you say we want to confirm signatures on constrained devices, you want to look at the use cases 00:26:54 ack r 00:26:54 rigo, you wanted to talk about limitation when creating value chains from sensors 00:27:05 q+ Rob-OGC 00:27:08 ... instead may be better to do on controller 00:27:57 EgeKorkan has joined #wot 00:28:12 q+ 00:28:45 rrsagent, draft minutes 00:28:46 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-wot-minutes.html kaz 00:29:34 mm: it's also possible we can avoid the issues that cause RDF processing to blow up 00:30:17 certainly wanted to insist that at the borderline to the further value chains, there should be a a gate for semantification so all metadata is disambiguated and can be used down the pipe 00:30:22 q+ 00:30:24 ... although... we would also have to constrain all extensions also 00:30:44 ra: in the context of registering context 00:30:45 ack Ro 00:31:04 ... we are exploring building a number of contexts 00:31:08 ... which are combined 00:31:27 rrsagent, draft minutes 00:31:28 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-wot-minutes.html kaz 00:31:34 ... is it possible to have a "federation" or registries? 00:31:34 q+ 00:32:01 mm: are you thinking about a hierarchy of registries? 00:32:23 ra: maybe, but also need a way to do testing, etc. 00:32:47 ack ka 00:33:21 kaz: probably wot needs to thinks about use cases and requirements for this 00:33:21 ack k 00:33:27 ack pc 00:33:34 q+ 00:34:04 kk: want to think about constraints, ad-hoc might be ok, but it would be good to see how well the current algorithm works on current input even with no changes 00:34:18 ... suspect it would work ok on TD and follow the fast path 00:34:51 ... as long as you are not using funny extensions 00:35:02 ack m 00:35:07 ack b 00:35:24 ben: a lot of that second level is to prevent things like graph poisoning 00:36:37 mm: generally the cases that cause problems are very hard to express in JSON 00:37:08 ... in summary, probably a non-problem 00:37:20 subtopic: Special Topics 00:37:33 seb: a few things we have run into 00:38:01 ... ege and mahda are really the main contexts, not available right now 00:38:37 ... my understanding is there is a strange behavior with behaviour with @type and type 00:38:46 ... type comes from JSON schema 00:39:10 ... when we convert to triples, type and @type get merged 00:39:23 gk: @type serializes to rdf:type 00:39:30 i|a few things|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/2041 wot-thing-description Issue 2041 - Property affoardances compact non-json-schema semantic types (@type) to json-schema type using the TD 1.1 @context| 00:39:34 rrsagent, draft minutes 00:39:35 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-wot-minutes.html kaz 00:39:52 gk: think what you are seeing is that type is being treated as an alias for rdf:type 00:40:06 ... inheriting a term definition for type 00:40:37 mm: is there a way to force it not to be confused? 00:40:50 gk: maybe 00:41:01 https://www.w3.org/2022/wot/td/v1.1 00:41:18 rrsagent, draft minutes 00:41:20 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-wot-minutes.html kaz 00:41:27 mm: if the JSON Schema ontology is defining type in terms of @type 00:43:07 ben: sounds like it was a relatively recent change that caused the bug 00:43:19 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/2041#issuecomment-2301638374 00:43:22 seb: comment from mahda seems to imply it is a recent issue 00:44:34 EgeKorkan has joined #wot 00:45:06 ben: it may work but may not round-trip like you expect, but it's not wrong per se 00:46:36 seb: maybe we can look at what DID and VC are doing? 00:46:46 ben: maybe, but is not exactly the same 00:47:13 q? 00:47:13 seb: next step is to clarify with mahda what is going on, then ping you 00:47:16 ben: sure 00:47:18 gk: sure 00:47:38 seb: next, JSON Schema for validating TD instances 00:47:55 ... but, currently no normative reference we can use 00:48:27 seb: is like a "living" standard, living standard, have their own SDO 00:48:37 ... trying to figure out how we can reference it 00:48:50 gk: there are other cases of "community standards" that can be referenced 00:48:52 q+ 00:49:06 ... it's not a W3C standard, but can be considered a community standard, may be other cases 00:49:40 rrsagent, draft minutes 00:49:41 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-wot-minutes.html kaz 00:50:21 mm: I will say that the approach we have taken is redefining what we need and avoid a direct dependence 00:50:30 ben: that is not an unreasonable approach 00:50:48 ... note that there is another thing called JSON Types 00:51:03 can that redfinition be a common profile we can re-use - or do we have re-re-specify each time? 00:51:06 ... there is a danger with governments etc. not accepting community specs 00:51:29 seb: means we should keep it as an informative references 00:51:44 ben: yes, I would recommend that, and also talk about how to stay aligned 00:51:58 ... OpenAPI has a similar issue 00:52:22 OpenAPI3.1 matches lastest json-schema version - 3.0 had a local verson 00:52:39 mm: and honestly we'd like to stay aligned with OpenAPI, but there is not a common spec we can refer to 00:52:45 q+ 00:53:34 ben: issue is a lot of them are volunteers with no funding, and could not afford the W3C processes 00:54:06 ... could also reference OpenAPI's dialect 00:55:19 mm: the real question is "do we need to do all this work" and the answer seems to be "yes" 00:55:26 q+ 00:55:47 ben: I think you are fine with what you are currently doing 00:57:08 yes 00:58:18 ben: have seen hash of context file published in TR, then is frozen and does not have to be dereferenced 00:58:22 mm: nice 00:58:32 q? 00:58:33 -> https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-json-schema/ Verifiable Credentials JSON Schema Specification 00:58:36 ack b 00:58:36 ack bigbluehat 00:58:53 ack Rob 00:59:18 ra: ogc has also invested in OpenAPI3.1 is aligned with a formal release of JSON Schema 00:59:35 s/ogc/OGC/ 00:59:51 ... tomorrow will talk about how we down-compile for compatibility 01:00:28 kaz: need to do some more survey on these resources, at that time we will need your help again 01:00:53 gkellogg has joined #wot 01:00:53 rigo has left #wot 01:00:57 gkellogg has joined #wot 01:01:34 +1 01:01:43 hirata has left #wot 01:01:49 adjourn 01:06:22 RRSAgent, draft minutes 01:06:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-wot-minutes.html TallTed 01:10:52 EgeKorkan has joined #wot 01:16:17 gkellogg has joined #wot 01:21:36 gkellogg_ has joined #wot 01:28:25 EgeKorkan has joined #wot 01:37:16 gkellogg has joined #wot 01:46:06 EgeKorkan has joined #wot 01:53:42 gkellogg has joined #wot 01:54:27 EgeKorkan has joined #wot 02:11:26 EgeKorkan has joined #wot 02:11:43 gkellogg has joined #wot 02:29:31 EgeKorkan has joined #wot 02:33:02 gkellogg has joined #wot 02:45:36 EgeKorkan has joined #wot 03:01:32 EgeKorkan has joined #wot 03:07:15 JKRhb has joined #wot 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Zakim has left #wot 14:35:41 RRSAgent, draft minutes 14:35:42 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-wot-minutes.html TallTed 14:35:48 RRSAgent, bye 14:35:48 I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2024/09/26-wot-actions.rdf : 14:35:48 ACTION: Kaz to talk with PLH about the proposed change of the Architecture [1] 14:35:48 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/09/26-wot-irc#T22-20-20 16:01:24 RRSAgent has joined #wot 16:01:24 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-wot-irc 16:01:40 regrets+ 16:04:39 Bert has joined #wot 16:04:45 sebastian has joined #wot 16:05:24 mjk has joined #wot 16:05:44 present+ 16:05:59 McCool has joined #wot 16:06:01 rwarren2 has joined #wot 16:06:07 hirata has joined #wot 16:06:53 asully has joined #wot 16:06:56 kaz has joined #wot 16:07:25 dezell has joined #wot 16:07:35 present+ David_Ezell 16:07:52 present+ Kunihiko_Toumura 16:07:56 present+ 16:08:07 rrsagent, make log public 16:08:11 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:08:12 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-wot-minutes.html kaz 16:08:22 16:08:35 meeting: WoT-WG/IG - TPAC 2024 - Joint meeting with SDW 16:08:38 satakagi has joined #wot 16:08:40 present+ Kaz_Ashimura 16:09:07 McCool: I will start about WoT then we will go to Spatial Data on the Web 16:09:15 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:09:17 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-wot-minutes.html kaz 16:09:23 topic: Presentation WoT 16:09:24 JKRhb has joined #wot 16:09:43 16:10:03 i|McCool shows|topic: Joint discussion with SDW| 16:10:17 present+ Tetsuhiko Hirata 16:10:28 i|McCool shows|subtopic: WoT| 16:10:28 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-09-tpac/2024-09-27-WoT-TPAC-SDW-McCool.pdf 16:10:49 s/pdf/pdf McCool's slides/ 16:11:14 McCool: Thing Description build a bridge about What you can do and How 16:11:22 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:11:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-wot-minutes.html kaz 16:12:02 i|McCool shows|scribenick: sebastian| 16:12:04 ... we have a lot smart building systems using WoT 16:12:28 ... there is a relation to spatial data 16:12:51 ... e.g., for spatial data discovery use cases 16:13:58 ... there are many WoT discovery mechanism such as DND-based, using DID documents, or simple well-known URIs 16:14:02 present+ Michael_McCool, Lei_Zhao, Michael_Koster, Rob_Atkinson, Satoru_Takagi, Seastian_Kaebisch, Tomoaki_Mizushima 16:15:11 Ringo: How about RFID? There are use cases for the Digital Product Passport 16:15:33 SK: it is covered by direct discovery mechanism 16:16:12 SK: lets postpone this discussion to our later session 16:17:07 topic: Spatial Data Issues in TDs 16:17:26 McCool: location data may be static or dynamic 16:17:44 ... use links to identify source of data 16:17:51 present +Robert_Warren 16:17:56 Lei_Zhao has joined #wot 16:18:22 McCool: or, location data can have various representation and options 16:19:04 ... can be coordinate-based, semantic or optional data 16:19:08 q+ 16:20:26 q+ 16:20:35 Rob: we have timestamps to the positions 16:21:17 McCool: yes, time of last update is important 16:21:25 present + satoru takagi 16:21:39 q+ 16:21:50 ack Ro 16:22:12 McCool: we should not make it complicated in the TD 16:22:47 Kaz: we need semantic annotation and mapping for advance coding 16:22:55 ack Ka 16:23:22 rigo has joined #wot 16:23:27 McCool: we need to identify common use cases 16:23:45 ack se 16:24:08 s/coding/coding. Also probably need for managing the history of the movement (of the devices and the users)/ 16:24:33 ... we have some example TDs using geolaction 16:24:44 16:24:52 s/advance coding/advanced coding like GeoPose/ 16:25:06 rrsagent, drat minutes 16:25:06 I'm logging. I don't understand 'drat minutes', kaz. Try /msg RRSAgent help 16:25:10 s/rrsagent, drat minutes// 16:25:15 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:25:16 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-wot-minutes.html kaz 16:25:48 ... example uses schema.org 16:26:31 present+ Bert_Bos, Rigo_Wenning, Austin_Sullivan 16:26:32 ... another example uses links that provide specific location information 16:26:34 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:26:35 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-wot-minutes.html kaz 16:26:57 16:27:25 present- Denken_Chen, Bert, Rob-OGC, "satoru takagi" 16:27:28 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:27:29 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-wot-minutes.html kaz 16:27:36 q? 16:27:59 q+ 16:28:09 q+ 16:28:30 ack seb 16:28:32 can we see the json-ld mapping to ontology for location objects? 16:29:00 i.e. how far from GeoSPARQL are we and how do we bridge the gap? 16:29:16 SK: there are also indoor location systems 16:29:18 q+ 16:30:01 present+ rigo 16:30:49 OK - lets see if we can get needs or testing into next GeoSPARQL update... or define an intermediate 16:30:52 ack rw 16:32:21 rwarren: a device comes with a barcode with own serial number 16:33:19 rigo: Phil Archer has a good solution for this 16:34:25 ... by creating digital link to transform QR codes as an example of how to transform very constraint numbers into a URI that can then be consumed by the system. The Specification should just mention that possibility 16:34:34 McCool: here are some next steps 16:35:02 ... identify geospatial information 16:36:11 ... find TDs using Geospatial search 16:37:29 JKRhb has joined #wot 16:37:44 kaz: we need to identify use cases, e.g, such as inside and outside geo locations 16:39:32 rwarren: we should also consider BIM, used in buildings a lot 16:40:07 kaz: we should talk with the LBD CG guys about that point 16:40:15 i/we should/scribenick: kaz/ 16:40:21 scribenick: sebastian 16:41:42 McCool: we should be exchange with ETSI ISG CIM 16:42:24 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-09-tpac/2024-09-27-WoT-TPAC-SDW-McCool.pdf McCool's slides 16:42:24 ... we have a simple liaison. There are bi-weekly meetings. 16:43:05 topic: SDW updates 16:43:09 scribenick: kaz 16:43:14 @@@ slides tbd 16:43:44 rob: SDW re-charter, GeoDCAT, Integration of OGC and app domains 16:44:18 ... would like to see methodology to handle the geolocation data appropriately 16:44:42 ... we can support application domain models 16:44:51 subtopic: SDW WG recharter 16:45:04 rob: joint work by W3C and OGC 16:45:23 ... purpose is allow W3C and OGC to collaborate in spec development 16:46:04 ... original charter was mainly for SSN aligned with OGC/ISO Observations and Measurements 16:46:12 ... derived basic ontology, SOS 16:46:43 ... the charter has expired 16:46:49 ... then rechartering needed 16:47:09 -> 2024/sdw-wg.html 16:47:40 ... work with OGC standard WG to jointly evelop, maintain and promote geopatial Web standards and geospatial profiles of more general Web standards 16:47:51 ... SOSA/SSN, DCAT, GeoDCAT 16:48:12 s/SOSA/would publish SOSA/ 16:48:18 ... bunch of other things 16:48:49 ... how might WoT relate to connected systems - OpenAPI version of "Sensor Web Enalement" model 16:49:00 -> link@@@ 16:49:14 ... note on alignment? JSON-LD contexts? Testing? 16:49:34 ... might be of mutual interest 16:49:57 ... then can align better around Sensor Things API v2 16:50:27 ... also Digital Twins space 16:50:32 ... City GML and Digital Twins WG 16:50:51 q? 16:50:53 ack k 16:51:00 bert: quick update on the Charter 16:51:11 ... horizontal review required 16:51:29