15:58:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
15:58:29 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-i18n-irc
15:58:37 <addison> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group TPAC 2024
15:58:42 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips
15:58:49 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/57789807-76fd-4d76-a1f9-e434efa7a4a9/
15:58:49 <agendabot> clear agenda
15:58:49 <agendabot> agenda+ Info Share
15:58:49 <agendabot> agenda+ Glossary Publication at Note
15:58:52 <agendabot> agenda+ Advancing LTLI
15:58:54 <agendabot> agenda+ PR and Issue Review
15:58:56 <agendabot> agenda+ Preparing for WHATWG
15:58:59 <agendabot> agenda+ Actions from Joint Meetings
15:59:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-i18n-minutes.html addison
16:02:32 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n
16:03:00 <xfq> present+
16:03:04 <xfq> present+ addison
16:03:09 <xfq> present+ jyasskin
16:04:33 <addison> present+ Frankie Wolf (remote)
16:05:29 <xfq> present+ Willy Yeh
16:05:41 <Frankie> Frankie has joined #i18n
16:05:46 <xfq> scribe: xfq
16:05:47 <Frankie> present+
16:05:55 <xfq> present+ r12a
16:06:03 <Willy> Willy has joined #i18n
16:06:07 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes
16:06:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-i18n-minutes.html xfq
16:06:11 <xfq> rrsagent, make log public
16:06:18 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes
16:06:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-i18n-minutes.html xfq
16:07:37 <addison> agenda?
16:08:46 <xfq> addison: is tehre something not on the agenda that people would like to discuss?
16:09:00 <xfq> jyasskin: I'm especially curious about the tiem question
16:09:05 <xfq> ... which is on your list
16:09:07 <jyasskin> s/tiem/<time>/
16:09:09 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 1
16:09:09 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:10:14 <atsushi> atsushi has joined #i18n
16:10:40 <xfq> jyasskin: I might be able to help with you find people in Google to participate
16:10:56 <xfq> addison: I can name names in the Google space of people who've shown interest in the past
16:11:03 <xfq> ... I'm happy to connect offline
16:11:10 <jyasskin> I co-tech-lead web standards at Google, so recruiting there is kinda my responsibility. I'm not super optimistic, but I'll look.
16:12:21 <xfq> addison: people saving their horizontals for the end
16:12:25 <jyasskin> 1 other topic that I forgot is that Bliss Symbolics in the APA is looking for a way to include themselves in HTML, and Elika and I think they should use Ruby.
16:12:29 <xfq> ... not doing horizontal engagement early
16:12:33 <xfq> ... when it would do the most good
16:12:56 <xfq> ... tehre's not a lot of appetite to add more gates to teh process
16:13:05 <xfq> ... I also wen to the sustainability breakout
16:13:09 <xfq> ... it is a new horizontal
16:13:28 <xfq> ... which is about limiting things like impact of web tech wrt things like power useage etc.
16:13:44 <xfq> ... third, I met WebAuthn people
16:14:08 <xfq> ... i18n people may dimly recall that they had invented a serialization for addig language and dir metadata to fields
16:14:41 <xfq> ... at our behest, we asked them to put lang metadata and they did by suing the Unicode lang tagging chars
16:14:56 <xfq> ... no one has implemented this
16:15:06 <xfq> ... if they did, no one would understand what this encoiding is
16:15:19 <xfq> ... this morning I added a comment about what we discusseed doing
16:15:40 <xfq> ... which is OK, don't implement a thing that attaches garbage to the end of oyour strings
16:15:53 <xfq> ... adn potentially a dcouemnt level metadata instead
16:16:09 <xfq> jyasskin: I was in the APA-whatwg session
16:16:19 <xfq> ... they were talking about Bliss symbolics
16:16:38 <xfq> ... the sugestion is to attach it when they like to use ruby to attach them
16:17:05 <xfq> ... when I talked to fantasai about it, she said that ruby actually has some of the same semantic variation that Bliss has
16:17:22 <xfq> ... they will almost certainly need a language tag for bliss
16:18:17 <xfq> ... that doesn't seemm unreasonable
16:18:21 <xfq> ... you don't like the idea
16:18:42 <xfq> r12a: we've been around this for a couple of times before witht he same people
16:18:58 <xfq> ... we definitely don't think it's a good idea to repurpose ruby as a glossing mechanism
16:19:06 <xfq> jyasskin: it is a glossing mechanism
16:19:19 <xfq> r12a: ruby was designed with a specific sort of target in mind
16:19:38 <xfq> ... and it has been develpoed with a specific target in mind which is CJKM
16:19:47 <xfq> ... I don't think it's a good idea
16:20:07 <xfq> jyasskin: I feel strongly that HTML elements should have semantics and not just behaviour
16:20:46 <xfq> r12a: a good example is that if you have japanese and you want to have normal ruby and you want to have Blissymbols
16:21:07 <xfq> jyasskin: if you have effectively 2 different explanations fo the same text
16:21:19 <xfq> ... you have to mark them with the differences between them
16:21:29 <xfq> ... so we need a language tag for Blissymbols
16:22:04 <xfq> r12a: in Japanese and Chinese in particular, depend on what kind of relationship the annotation has with the base text
16:22:24 <xfq> ... you're developing a tech that's not going to be widely standardized and used
16:22:33 <xfq> jyasskin: you can say the same thign about ARIA
16:22:47 <xfq> r12a: you could, but there's no reason to do more
16:23:09 <xfq> jyasskin: fantasai was going to flesh out the semantic of @@
16:23:33 <xfq> addison: OK, I don't want to be the last to know about it, though
16:24:07 <addison> agenda?
16:24:17 <addison> Tristan
16:24:23 <jyasskin> present+ TristanNitot
16:24:53 <jyasskin> s/@@/the various ways Ruby is used/
16:25:04 <addison> xfq: met with a11y guidelines
16:25:15 <addison> ... will do early review of @@ spec
16:25:34 <addison> ... they will send it to us and incorp our checklist into their wcag3 process
16:25:38 <tnitot> tnitot has joined #i18n
16:25:42 <addison> ... will try thtis process and see if it is working
16:25:48 <addison> s/thtis/this
16:26:10 <xfq> s/@@ spec/WCAG 3/
16:26:21 <xfq> scribe+ addison
16:26:41 <xfq> r12a: we spent a lot of time about the short review checklist
16:26:57 <xfq> ... I don't think we want another  gating point
16:27:18 <xfq> ... we want peoople to apply the principles of i18n as they're doing the work right from the beginning
16:27:36 <xfq> ... that's what I was saying to the a11y people
16:28:04 <xfq> ... not look at the short review checklist after they develop something, but they should look at it before they develop something
16:28:21 <xfq> ... and they should follow the links in the right hand column and read that
16:28:34 <xfq> ... FPWD is too late
16:28:42 <xfq> ... it's a sort of gating point
16:29:10 <xfq> ... I don't know if we need to create a video that says here's the short review hcecklist
16:29:25 <xfq> ... and here's the longer checklist and how to get there
16:29:41 <xfq> ... and you should read all these things and go through these points one by one
16:29:56 <xfq> ... and they can play that video before FPWD
16:30:14 <xfq> addison: @@1
16:30:21 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 2
16:30:21 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Glossary Publication at Note -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:30:48 <xfq> addison: I had a hallway conversation with plh
16:30:56 <addison> https://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-glossary
16:30:56 <xfq> ... as you know we have the i18n glossary
16:31:04 <xfq> ... which is a Note track document
16:31:16 <xfq> ... which contains all the i18n terminology that is not found in INfra
16:31:28 <xfq> ... we tell people to use these terms in their specs
16:31:53 <xfq> ... one of the challenges is that they get a warning from spec that says you have used a non-normative ref in your normative section
16:32:03 <xfq> ... wheyn they link to a term like code point to our glossary
16:32:08 <xfq> ... and we're a special case
16:32:41 <xfq> ... it was suggested in a coulple of places that we might become a living stdardn that would avoid that problem
16:32:47 <xfq> ... but doesn't seem to make sense
16:32:54 <xfq> ... that's too heavyweight
16:33:03 <xfq> ... becae we update the glossary all the time
16:33:16 <xfq> ... and it's not a registry
16:33:37 <xfq> ... the main thing we need to do is publish it with the Note status and not Draft Note status, which is what is currently is
16:33:48 <xfq> ... and then continue to publish it as a Note
16:33:59 <jyasskin> q+
16:34:01 <xfq> ... and then adjust the tools like respec to make it special
16:34:07 <addison> ack next
16:34:40 <xfq> jyasskin: do you feel like the terms of the glossary affect the behavior of any normative specs that refer to it or are they just for understanding?
16:34:47 <xfq> addison: they are for understanding
16:35:07 <xfq> ... it's helpful to not have people to have to copy the defs out
16:35:28 <xfq> jyasskin: if everything in the glossary wouldn't change the test cases it seems fine for it to be a note
16:35:53 <xfq> addison: like code point, we don't mean UTF-16 code point
16:36:15 <addison> agenda?
16:36:20 <xfq> addison: any other comments on glossary?
16:36:46 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 3
16:36:46 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Advancing LTLI -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:36:51 <addison> https://www.w3.org/TR/ltli
16:37:08 <xfq> addison: we have a document called Language Tags and Locale Identifiers, LTLI
16:37:24 <xfq> ... I have an issue that I own in specdev to harmonize the reqs between these 2 documents
16:37:38 <xfq> ... mostly mean importing the guidance from LTLI to specdev
16:37:45 <xfq> ... I think that's worthwhile
16:37:50 <xfq> ... I have a draft
16:38:06 <xfq> ... some time real soon now I'd like to advance LTLI
16:38:17 <xfq> ... I don't think there's other work on that
16:38:24 <xfq> ... I think it's mostly up to date
16:38:32 <xfq> ... I'd like to do a wide review again
16:38:38 <xfq> ... and publish that out
16:38:44 <xfq> ... so I want the WG aware
16:38:47 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 4
16:38:48 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- PR and Issue Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:38:49 <xfq> ... any comments?
16:39:04 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/136
16:39:05 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/136 -> Pull Request 136 Change the guidelines about establishing base direction and mention ALM (by aphillips)
16:39:34 <xfq> addison: this one is about guidelines about establishing base direction and mention ALM
16:39:50 <jyasskin> Speaking of not being last to know, there was progress on https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7039#issuecomment-2378006020, `Element.currentLang`, this week.
16:39:50 <gb> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7039 -> Issue 7039 Proposal for Element.currentLang and Element.currentDir (by claviska) [addition/proposal] [needs implementer interest] [i18n-tracker]
16:39:52 <xfq> ... fixes 2 of the oldest issues against specdev
16:40:23 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/133
16:40:24 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/133 -> Pull Request 133 Add a new guideline about ruby markup (by xfq)
16:41:19 <xfq> r12a: I had a quick look at specdev #136, you might need to explain or point to an explanation of what ALM does
16:41:19 <gb> Issue 136 not found
16:41:33 <xfq> ... which most people have no clue
16:41:44 <xfq> addison: it's only 11 years old
16:41:53 <xfq> r12a: it's a bit of a weird one
16:42:09 <r12a> https://r12a.github.io/scripts/arab/block.html#char061C
16:42:24 <xfq> addison: I resisted the temtation to add the descriptoin
16:42:31 <xfq> ... but I can add that
16:42:49 <xfq> r12a: ALM determines the order of digits in a sequence
16:43:00 <xfq> ... it's used for Arabic, @@, and Syriac
16:43:09 <xfq> ... but it's not used for Persian
16:43:23 <xfq> ... I mean the Arabic language, not the Arabic script
16:43:35 <xfq> [addison does a demo]
16:44:54 <r12a> https://r12a.github.io/scripts/arab/arb.html#expressions
16:45:19 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/133
16:45:41 <xfq> addison: the second PR is the new guidelines about ruby markup
16:46:10 <xfq> ... it is about our earlier conversation about ruby
16:47:06 <xfq> jyasskin: I feel like it's a mistake, but I don't have the context to actually say that authoritatively
16:47:23 <xfq> addison: we can hold off on it since we actually had a conversation today
16:47:39 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/pull/77
16:47:40 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/pull/77 -> Pull Request 77 Update orthographic syllable related definitions (by r12a)
16:47:41 <xfq> r12a: we can publish it and if it turns out to be incorrect advice then we can change it
16:48:19 <xfq> addison: this one is against the glossary
16:49:24 <xfq> xfq: this is to address the comments from Norbert Lindenberg
16:49:36 <addison> action: richard: tidy specdev PR#77
16:49:44 <gb> Created -> action #133 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/133
16:50:03 <JackieFei> JackieFei has joined #i18n
16:50:05 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/issues/21
16:50:09 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/issues/21 -> Issue 21 Value of default direction (by r12a) [help wanted] [devt] [Agenda+]
16:50:37 <r12a> #133 note https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/issues/21
16:50:38 <gb> Added -> comment https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/133#issuecomment-2379689084
16:51:17 <r12a> zakim, draft minutes
16:51:17 <Zakim> I don't understand 'draft minutes', r12a
16:52:02 <xfq> addison: Value of default direction
16:52:13 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/issues/21
16:52:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-i18n-minutes.html addison
16:52:28 <xfq> ... it was proposed to make auto the default direction in place of ltr
16:52:46 <jyasskin> q+
16:53:06 <addison> https://w3c.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#sec_default_base
16:53:19 <xfq> jyasskin: does this have any implication on implementations?
16:53:30 <xfq> addison: it should have no implications for impls
16:53:41 <xfq> ... this is guidance to spec writers
16:53:45 <xfq> jyasskin: OK
16:54:12 <xfq> addison: some standards have a longstanding default base direction of ltr
16:54:17 <xfq> ... auto seems reasonable
16:54:45 <xfq> ... since in most cases if you have strong rtl chars it's at the beginning
16:54:58 <jyasskin> +1
16:55:10 <addison> ack next
16:55:11 <xfq> addison: auto's default is ltr
16:55:25 <xfq> ... in the absence of any strong rtl chars
16:56:17 <xfq> addison: is there any objection to my making the change?
16:56:29 <addison> agenda?
16:56:42 <xfq> xfq: sounds good to me
16:56:43 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 5
16:56:43 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Preparing for WHATWG -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:57:52 <xfq> addison: a bunch of of bidi issues
16:58:13 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1819
16:58:14 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1819 -> Issue 1819 Should dir=auto with no strong characters inherit directionality from parent or be ltr? (by w3cbot) [close?] [tracker] [s:html] [i:bidi_text] [spec-type-issue] [alreq] [hlreq] [t:bidi_markup] [Agenda+I18N+WHATWG] [whatwg]
16:58:30 <xfq> ... I have a call out on an issue that is related to bidi which is ^
16:58:34 <addison> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/10097
16:58:42 <gb> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/10097 -> CLOSED Issue 10097 Should dir=auto with no strong characters inherit directionality from parent or be ltr? (by dbaron) [i18n-tracker] [i18n-alreq] [i18n-hlreq]
16:59:56 <xfq> addison: fantasai has expressed the opinion that dir=auto @@
17:02:19 <xfq> r12a: @@ ALM
17:02:34 <xfq> [addison demonstrates the issue]
17:14:39 <jyasskin> q+
17:15:48 <xfq> jyasskin: this is a probably too aggressive suggstion, bu t I wonder if th e auto algorithm isn't paying enough attention to whether the content is weakly directional
17:16:08 <xfq> addison: no, it's looking for a strongly directional char
17:16:19 <xfq> ... if it doesn't see one, is uses its default
17:16:57 <xfq> s/ th e / the /
17:17:10 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes
17:17:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-i18n-minutes.html xfq
17:18:02 <xfq> jyasskin: thinking about how to get the impls to change, whatever we write in the spec, the impls will be highly constrained by compat
17:18:09 <xfq> ... unless there's a strong argument
17:18:31 <xfq> ... if the person that broke was clearly doing the wrong thing, that has a chance of convincing the employers
17:18:55 <xfq> ... but if they weren't clearly doing the wrong thing, then probably everyone's gonna prioritize compat
17:19:07 <xfq> addison: you can see that it's complicated
17:19:11 <xfq> jyasskin: yes
17:20:52 <xfq> jyasskin: just reading the bug it looks like all 3 impls are inclined to not change anything, to keep auto to ltr
17:21:39 <xfq> addison: it is very frequently ltr speakers are making decisions for rtl language users
17:21:57 <xfq> ... and it is hard to work with rtl everywhere
17:22:12 <xfq> ... as a group we tend to bias towards rtl users
17:22:48 <xfq> ... if you don't have any rtl, none of this bothers you, but if you have rtl text, this bothers you all the time
17:23:13 <xfq> ... and if you talk to individual non-technical users there, @@
17:23:26 <xfq> jyasskin: I think your bias is correct
17:23:40 <xfq> ... you should prioritize the needs of the rtl speakers
17:25:02 <xfq> [r12a shows a demo]
17:28:45 <xfq> addison: different Arabic script languages do have different preferences wrt neutral separated number sequences
17:29:25 <xfq> r12a: Arabic and Persian would expect it behaviour differently
17:29:38 <xfq> jyasskin: that makes it really hard to justify a change in the default
17:29:50 <xfq> addison: that's only one corner case, though
17:30:33 <xfq> ... there are a lot of neutrals that are not number neutrals in weak directionals that are not numbers
17:30:54 <xfq> ... because you want the isolation
17:31:05 <xfq> ... and don't want spillover effects
17:31:32 <xfq> ... between the value that's being inserted inside the span and the value on the outside
17:31:54 <xfq> jyasskin: this is again for convincing the implementers, not just arguing
17:31:58 <xfq> r12a: yeah
17:32:07 <xfq> [addison shows a demo]
17:35:39 <xfq> jyasskin: I like your currency example because it shows broken behaviour with the current thing in a realistic situation
17:36:02 <xfq> ... I would suggest posting this example at least
17:36:12 <xfq> ... I don't want to wait on what this group prefers
17:36:45 <xfq> addison: this example includes strong chars inside of the isolate, and this issue is about only neutrals and weaks
17:37:12 <xfq> jyasskin: it would be good to have a realistic example where you have a reason to isolate
17:37:31 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes
17:37:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-i18n-minutes.html xfq
17:48:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-i18n-minutes.html addison
18:00:45 <addison> Topic: Break (until 11:00 Pacific)
18:01:01 <addison> Topic: WHATWG prep (continued)
18:04:31 <Willy> Willy has joined #i18n
18:07:21 <xfq> r12a: I was hoping the blackletter discussion would create further discussions about how the browser knows what to do when somebody says they want more
18:08:25 <addison> https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/7b543379-edbe-4922-b6c4-91f0b03bc8c2/
18:08:41 <xfq> addison: I updated the agenda for the whatwg meeting with some links
18:09:14 <atsushi> atsushi has joined #i18n
18:09:30 <xfq> ... if you get a chance you might want to click on the summary links
18:09:51 <xfq> ... do we want to spend more time on base direction of neutral isolates?
18:10:09 <xfq> ... I got an email from Shane Carr who wants to dial into our meeting with whatwg
18:10:18 <xfq> ... I had an action to talk to him
18:10:19 <tnitot> tnitot has joined #i18n
18:10:26 <xfq> ... he's the author of semantic skeletons
18:10:30 <xfq> ... draft at Ecma
18:10:57 <xfq> ... adding time formatting attributes to input type=@@
18:11:48 <xfq> ... in our Monday meeting we also talked about the fact that HTML has language about respecting the locale of an input type=@@
18:11:57 <xfq> ... but it's inconsistently implemented
18:12:03 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3AAgenda%2BI18N%2BWHATWG
18:12:31 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3At%3Aloc_time
18:12:47 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3At%3Abidi_markup
18:12:57 <xfq> addison: as I mentioned before, there's a couple of broad categories
18:13:06 <addison8> addison8 has joined #i18n
18:13:23 <xfq> ... if you go to t:loc_time
18:13:31 <xfq> ... then there are things related to time
18:13:39 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3At%3Abidi_markup+label%3Awhatwg
18:13:41 <xfq> ... inncluding some that are not agenda+
18:15:00 <xfq> ... any thoughts?
18:15:22 <r12a> is:issue is:open label:t:bidi_markup,bidi_text label:whatwg
18:15:32 <r12a> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3At%3Abidi_markup%2Cbidi_text+label%3Awhatwg+
18:16:13 <xfq> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7039
18:16:13 <gb> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7039 -> Issue 7039 Proposal for Element.currentLang and Element.currentDir (by claviska) [addition/proposal] [needs implementer interest] [i18n-tracker]
18:16:21 <gb> https://github.com/whatwg/meta/issues/326 -> Issue 326 TPAC 2024 meeting (by past)
18:16:43 <r12a> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3At%3Abidi_markup%2Ci%3Abidi_text+label%3Awhatwg+
18:18:42 <xfq> addison: create a TF to do a regular call to work through these?
18:18:53 <xfq> ... with WHATWG, like our CSS call
18:19:37 <xfq> ... our total whatwg list is 86 open issues
18:19:56 <xfq> r12a: we have 17 needs-resolution issues
18:21:48 <xfq> r12a: +1 to creating a TF
18:22:10 <xfq> Bert: it's an effecient way of working but it depends on whether there are people available to come to that meeting
18:22:32 <xfq> xfq: I'm not opposed to the idea, but depends on whether we have time, the frequence, the time slot etc.
18:22:47 <xfq> addison: let's propose it first
18:24:21 <xfq> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7039
18:25:11 <xfq> xfq: have a look at ^
18:26:50 <xfq> addison: Lea added a comment 20h ago
18:29:40 <xfq> https://github.com/whatwg/meta/issues/326#issuecomment-2378177852
18:31:02 <xfq> addison: unhappy to see this first time this morning
18:34:14 <xfq> ... it's better than the current situation
18:34:30 <xfq> s/it's better/the proposal is better
18:35:43 <xfq> r12a: I guess the question is how they're struggling with
18:36:10 <xfq> ... if you're a content author and you knew that you'd labeled certain things with a particular language tag
18:36:20 <xfq> ... then you remember what that language this was
18:37:16 <xfq> addison: I think fantasai mentions that intermso f providing some kind of method for computeLangMatches
18:37:29 <xfq> ... so that you can do some queries like that
18:37:47 <xfq> r12a: if ou want to dothis as returnign an boject rahter than as a string
18:38:04 <xfq> addison: I would return the string
18:38:27 <xfq> ... if you force it to go through an ojbect like Intl.Locale
18:38:33 <xfq> ... you might get garbage
18:39:05 <xfq> r12a: if you use :lang(fr) lang is fr-CA, taht still matches, right?
18:39:08 <xfq> addison: yes
18:39:28 <xfq> ...  but the el.computedLang is fr-CA
18:39:50 <xfq> addison: does el.computedLang === 'fr'
18:40:12 <xfq> r12a: we need to advise authors on how to use that in that string
18:40:31 <xfq> ... you need to get the string so that you can do something
18:41:06 <xfq> addison: it occurs to me that computedDir might have a subtlety in it
18:41:36 <xfq> ... if the element directoin is auto
18:41:51 <xfq> ... would that return ltr from the actually computed value as opposed to just saying auto
18:42:00 <xfq> r12a: I was just wondering the same thing
18:43:20 <xfq> addison: I think that's a comment worth adding
18:43:37 <xfq> r12a: why do they want to know what the direction is?
18:44:07 <xfq> ... for diagnostics could be useful sometimes
18:46:20 <xfq> addison: if you grab an element and you change the content of this element then the value of computedLang might change
18:46:49 <xfq> r12a: probably just want to know *at the point* when you ask what the direction/language is
18:47:11 <xfq> addison: might be super interesting for an input box what the behaviour might change
18:47:21 <xfq> ... after some inputs been put in the field
18:47:48 <xfq> r12a: in input fields where you don't have an explicit declaration of the direction
18:48:15 <addison> `dirname=foo` so `foo=ltr` on submit
18:49:05 <r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-html-dir.en.html#reportingdirection
18:50:59 <addison> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/2404
18:51:00 <gb> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/2404 -> Issue 2404 A tag to display date and/or time to the user in his preferred format. (by lostmsu) [addition/proposal] [needs implementer interest] [i18n-tracker]
18:53:29 <xfq> addison: anything else we want to talk to them about?
18:54:55 <xfq> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:54:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-i18n-minutes.html xfq
18:58:53 <xfq> https://www.w3.org/2024/09/font-i18n-privacy.html
19:02:16 <xfq> r12a: for Syriac Noto try to harmonize all the styles
19:02:19 <xfq> ... including Latin
19:02:29 <xfq> ... they tend to be sort of simple and blocky
19:03:33 <xfq> ...the user should be able to choose whether they want all guards off
19:03:38 <xfq> ... or all guards on
19:03:59 <xfq> ... or something in between
19:04:09 <xfq> ... it could work a bit like cookies
19:04:26 <xfq> xfq: let the user add an allowlist or something
19:05:02 <xfq> [[
19:05:04 <xfq> The possibility of a configurable, per-user opt-in to exposing some or all User-Installed Fonts, or a per-origin opt-in, is being discussed.
19:05:04 <xfq> ]]
19:05:20 <xfq> r12a: in chris's document ^
19:06:18 <xfq> r12a: Safari has implemented this
19:06:23 <xfq> ... you can only systems font
19:06:37 <xfq> ... so I never use Safari these days for multilingual stuff
19:06:46 <xfq> ... that's really bad
19:06:54 <xfq> ... although I think you could do webfonts
19:07:40 <xfq> r12a: you could be working on an intranet
19:07:52 <xfq> ... you should be immune from this privacy issue in those situations
19:08:06 <xfq> ... so the browser shoudln't hinder from using whatever you want
19:08:11 <xfq> ... or localhost
19:09:43 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes
19:09:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-i18n-minutes.html xfq
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23:34:52 <sffc> Hi, Addison invited me to the "WHATWG, Internationalization Working Group Joint Meeting" to discuss semantic datetime skeletons, but Zoom is telling me "incorrect password" when I try to join. help?
23:36:18 <sffc> ok I figured it out
23:48:17 <xfq> action: addison to file an issue about making input respect locale
23:48:20 <gb> Created -> action #134 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/134