21:05:25 RRSAgent has joined #wot 21:05:29 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/26-wot-irc 21:05:32 topic: Intro 21:05:43 around the table 21:05:59 gkellogg has left #wot 21:06:03 jets: Brian McManus, Ignite retail technology, irc handle is jets 21:07:12 present+ Kaz_Ashimura 21:07:29 meeting: WoT WG/IG - TPAC 2024 - Day 1 21:07:31 jthomas has joined #wot 21:07:32 present+ Kunihiko_Toumura 21:07:35 mjk has joined #wot 21:08:26 present+ 21:08:31 agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Wiki_for_F2F_2024_planning 21:09:45 scribenick: sebastian 21:09:55 21:12:27 McCool: we will also talk about AI. Wonsuk Lee from ETRI will join for this topic. 21:12:31 present+ Deniel_Peintner, Ege_Korkan, Mahda_Noura, Michael_Koster, Rob_Atkinson, Tomoaki_Mizushima 21:12:45 topic: Use Case 21:13:28 21:14:13 TM: there are many use cases for the IoT 21:14:37 s/topic: Intro/topic: Opening/ 21:14:55 ... we ask the stakeholder to fill out use case template 21:15:01 s/around the table/self introduction around the table/ 21:15:29 21:15:36 i|around the table|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-09-tpac/2024-09-26-WoT-TPAC-Opening-McCool.pdf Slides| 21:15:55 ... use cases are not limited to W3C members 21:16:05 i| https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-09-tpac/2024-09-26-WoT-TPAC-UseCases-Mizushima.pdf Slides| 21:16:28 ... template has a simple structure 21:17:05 ... we asking about use case background and the specific problem statement 21:17:52 i|use case are not|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/issues/new?assignees=&labels=UC&projects=&template=use-case-template.yml&title=Provide+a+title+for+your+use+case... Use Case Template| 21:18:04 rrsagent, make log public 21:18:09 rrsagent, draft minutes 21:18:10 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 21:18:27 21:18:44 s/Case/Cases 21:19:35 TM: if you have a question, you can create a issue 21:19:48 present+ Michael_McCool, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Josh_Thomas, Brian_McManus, Sungpil_Shin, Tetsuhiko_Hirata, Kunihiko_Toumura, Jay_Kishigami 21:20:25 rrsagent, draft minutes 21:20:26 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 21:20:53 chair: McCool, Sebastian, Koster 21:21:16 EK: TD TF wants to use the Use Case process to turn worthy issues into use cases 21:21:32 ... we had 3 trials so far 21:22:14 ... tomorrow in TD session there will be background 21:22:56 McCool: Use cases is always the first process to implement new features 21:22:58 q+ 21:23:47 SK: is there a clear border between small feature and bigger concept request 21:23:52 ? 21:24:14 s/?// 21:24:18 q? 21:24:22 ack s 21:24:51 McCool: I have some slides about the kind of process 21:25:04 rrsagent, draft minutes 21:25:05 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 21:25:15 21:25:50 s/topic: Use Case/topic: Use Cases and Requirements/ 21:26:35 i|https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-09-tpac/2024-09-26-WoT-TPAC-UseCases-Mizushima.pdf|subtopic: Use Cases| 21:26:45 McCool: the default process is that we have a UC description, we will derive requirements which will be reflected by work items 21:27:28 McCool: there is a requirement format 21:27:36 i| i| https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-09-tpac/2024-09-26-WoT-TPAC-Requirements-McCool.pdf Slides| 21:28:14 rrsagent, draft minutes 21:28:16 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 21:28:30 ... user story template is "As a PERSONA, I want CAPABILITY so that PURPOSE." 21:28:52 i|TM shows a use case template|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/issues/new?assignees=&labels=UC&projects=&template=use-case-template.yml&title=Provide+a+title+for+your+use+case... Use Case Template| 21:29:01 McCool: what is the different between Functional vs Technical Requirements? 21:29:19 ... functional is about "Why" 21:29:31 ... technical is about "What" 21:29:41 JKRhb has joined #wot 21:29:48 yangsamy has joined #wot 21:29:52 present+ David_Ezell 21:30:37 21:30:59 rwarren2 has joined #wot 21:31:04 rwarren2 has left #wot 21:32:37 <... and Requirement examples; slide 7> 21:33:06 rrsagent, draft minutes 21:33:07 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 21:33:28 present+ Will_Abramson 21:33:31 rrsagent, draft minutes 21:33:32 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 21:34:38 q+ to talk about the need for use case if one can write a requirement like in the example 21:34:38 dezell has joined #wot 21:34:47 present+ David_Ezell 21:36:41 McCool: We assign some categories such as Privacy, Cloud Integration, etc. 21:37:09 ... special cases are Security and privacy requirements 21:37:31 ... those are generally to mitigate "risks" 21:38:37 McCool: last slide shows a suggested plan 21:39:14 ... we should expand the requirement section in use cases and requirements document to define requirments and connect them to use cases 21:39:23 q? 21:39:33 ... we should also keep everything simple 21:39:34 present+ Rob_Warren 21:39:36 q+ 21:39:46 q? 21:39:48 McCool: we have time for questions 21:39:55 zkis has joined #wot 21:39:55 rwarren2 has joined #wot 21:40:18 q? 21:40:43 q+ 21:40:53 EK: for me is not enough to provide detail description of a requirement. We need a good understanding, what is the impact of, e.g. TD 21:41:49 McCool: we are not consultans. 21:42:20 Rob-OGC has joined #wot 21:42:25 s/consultas/consultants/ 21:42:45 q+ 21:42:52 ... there is a problem that provided use cases are not very detailful 21:43:02 ack e 21:43:02 EgeKorkan, you wanted to talk about the need for use case if one can write a requirement like in the example 21:44:19 DE: I'm confused about the slide 7. Not sure what case 3 has to do with "Profile"? 21:46:23 21:46:54 -> https://w3c.github.io/wot-security/#wot-threat-model-stakeholders WoT Security - 3..1 WoT Primary Stakeholders 21:47:13 ... there are places which list the different stakeholders 21:47:23 q? 21:47:28 ack de 21:47:53 Kaz: I'm agree with McCool approach 21:48:43 ... for use cases, we need to clarify first the stakeholders and then about the need 21:49:20 McCool: I will make an alternative suggestion tomorrow 21:49:33 ack k 21:50:17 present+ Zoltan_Kis 21:51:10 Rob: there is a different between use case and use case scenario 21:51:18 q+ 21:51:27 s/different/difference/ 21:51:30 ... how to handle connection to ontologies? 21:51:38 q+ 21:51:45 q- later 21:51:54 ack r 21:51:55 ... and language models 21:51:56 ack m 21:52:29 McCool: it would be great if you can provide links of good use cases samples 21:53:49 Rob: there is Spatial Data on the Web WG as a good example 21:54:03 McCool: tomorrow we have a joint meeting 21:54:10 q? 21:54:12 ack k 21:54:40 topic: Discovery 21:54:49 topic: Refactoring 21:54:55 scribenick: EgeKorkan 21:54:59 topic: Refactoring 21:55:19 mm: The one that caused the most discussion is architecture document 21:55:28 ... whether it should be informative or normative 21:55:31 hirata has joined #wot 21:55:47 i|tomorrow|kaz: tx for your input, Rob! For this WoT Charter period, it is very important to handle input from other SDOs and W3C groups as use cases and requirements. So let's continue joint discussion :)| 21:55:54 rrsagent, draft minutes 21:55:55 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 21:56:01 ... they go into in the beginning to understand WoT and also to understand the organization of other documents 21:56:22 q+ to say that implementers are not aware of the assertions (features) anyways 21:56:26 i|tx for your|scribenick: kaz| 21:56:36 i|tomorrow|scribenick: sebastian| 21:56:42 ... there are also high level assertions that cannot be tested for the implementation report 21:56:47 rrsagent, draft minutes 21:56:48 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 21:57:14 ... we have to find a solution for the assertions. Should we remove them or move them somewhere 21:57:27 s/topic: Discovery// 21:57:32 but these assertions are not tests that could make Architecture normative... 21:57:35 s/topic: Refactoring// 21:57:39 rrsagent, draft minutes 21:57:40 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 21:57:46 ... about half of the assertions are about security or privacy and other half are about TD/TM and discovery 21:57:57 ... we can migrate them to the relevant documents 21:58:52 ... there are also use cases that belong to the use cases 21:59:48 ... the minimum work is to move the assertions 21:59:50 s/but these assertions are not tests that could make Architecture normative...// 21:59:57 q+ 22:00:32 q+ 22:00:37 ... any discussion on this? 22:00:43 q+ 22:01:22 q- as Ege made the same point 22:01:27 q- 22:02:31 -> https://w3c.github.io/wot-architecture/testing/report11.html WoT Architecture 1.1 Implementation Report 22:03:12 ek: implementers do not follow the assertions in any way so there is no danger in removing them altogether 22:03:20 mm: we have implementation experience 22:03:58 ek: but those were not implemented by following the spec, they happened to satisfy those 22:04:41 mm: we have proven their implementability already so they can be moved around 22:04:42 q? 22:04:45 ack e 22:04:45 EgeKorkan, you wanted to say that implementers are not aware of the assertions (features) anyways 22:05:12 present+ 22:05:14 sk: on one hand, I would say that we should not change a running system 22:05:31 ... on the other, with a 2.0 charter, we have the opportunity to make bigger changes 22:06:55 ack s 22:06:58 ack k 22:07:08 ... requirements are in architecture somehow, which does not make sense 22:07:31 kaz: this proposal slide is ok. To agree on a consensus, we need to check the assertions in the document in detail 22:07:37 q+ 22:07:44 q+ 22:07:48 mm: who can do it though? 22:08:34 kaz: maybe we should have a basic resolution on this direction 22:08:46 mm: or we do nothing, simply 22:08:59 kaz: going to TR track, we will get wide review again 22:10:42 mm: we have to evaluate them one by one and they can move into the TD since that is the only document we have committed to publish as REC 22:10:53 s/this direction/this direction, and then think about who, how, when to do the changes as the next steps./ 22:10:53 q? 22:13:22 ek: I am fine with going through them one by one but I strongly think that implementers are not aware of them nor did they read those assertions when implementing 22:13:50 mm: that is not true. They submitted implementation experience 22:14:09 ack E 22:14:11 ack T 22:14:24 ek: no, I say with implementers and "forced" them to submit pass/fail in the csv. They did not read to implement their implementation 22:14:24 s/get wide review again/we need to explain why Architecture need to be a Rec Track document during the wide review again./ 22:14:25 Wonsuk has joined #wot 22:14:48 tm: Architecture is an important document. It is important to explain the relationship 22:14:54 ... between the documents 22:15:07 mm: It will stay and will be like an explainer 22:15:36 s/relationship/relationship between the documents/ 22:15:51 s/... between the documents// 22:15:55 proposal: Adopt the plan to convert Architecture to an informative document, with existing assertions to be evaluated and removed or moved to other normative documents. 22:15:56 (to be inserted after my point with "forced") sk: we have to follow the formalism. 22:16:17 +1 22:17:03 q+ 22:17:18 proposal: Adopt the plan in https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-09-tpac/2024-09-26-WoT-TPAC-Requirements-McCool.pdf to convert Architecture to an informative document, with existing assertions to be evaluated and removed or moved to other normative documents. 22:17:25 s/(to be inserted after my point with "forced") // 22:18:02 proposal: Adopt the plan in https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-09-tpac/2024-09-26-WoT-TPAC-Requirements-McCool.pdf to convert Architecture to an informative document, with existing assertions to be evaluated and removed or moved to other documents. 22:18:23 ek: since some assertions are about scripting runtimes, we should remove the word "normative" 22:18:28 q? 22:18:31 ack e 22:18:42 resolution: Adopt the plan in https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-09-tpac/2024-09-26-WoT-TPAC-Requirements-McCool.pdf to convert Architecture to an informative document, with existing assertions to be evaluated and removed or moved to other documents. 22:19:04 present+ Ding_Wei, Jan_Romann 22:20:20 action: Kaz to talk with PLH about the proposed change of the Architecture 22:21:04 rrsagent, draft minutes 22:21:05 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 22:21:11 topic: Discovery 22:21:23 q? 22:21:25 mm: got sucked into another thing and do not have time to work on the discovery spec 22:21:40 i|The one that ca|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-09-tpac/2024-09-26-WoT-TPAC-Refactoring-McCool.pdf Slides| 22:21:40 q+ 22:21:48 mm: we can postpone the discovery work until TD 2.0 is ready. 22:21:50 dape has joined #wot 22:22:09 ... in the meantime, we can publish an errata for the current document and allow submission of TD2.0 instances 22:22:22 i|got sucked|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-09-tpac/2024-09-26-WoT-TPAC-Discovery-McCool.pdf Slides| 22:22:25 rrsagent, draft minutes 22:22:26 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 22:22:34 q+ 22:22:52 q+ 22:24:05 sk: I would not like to have two specs that contradict each. We should check that the discovery supports TD 2.0 22:24:16 mm: we can do that with an errata and keep the API etc. 22:24:40 ack s 22:26:09 zk: I wanted to mention that we have dependency to the discovery spec. There are no algorithms in the discovery etc. If there will be no changes to the spec, the scripting api can go ahead and be flexible in specifying a JS api for discovery 22:26:39 s/we/we (Scripting API/ 22:26:46 s/API/API)/ 22:27:08 s/dependency to/dependency on/ 22:27:31 q? 22:28:11 mm: at least for the short term, we can do this 22:28:11 ack 22:28:11 ack z 22:28:31 kaz: agree with mm. We do not have to work on Discovery until we get use case and requirements 22:29:06 proposal: Defer work on Discovery until the next charter, but publish errata if necessary to address ambiguity or refinements to work with TD 2.0 or the Scripting API. 22:29:45 +1 22:29:53 resolution: Defer work on Discovery until the next charter, but publish errata if necessary to address ambiguity or refinements to work with TD 2.0 or the Scripting API. 22:30:06 q? 22:30:09 ack k 22:30:39 topic: Liaisons 22:30:47 subtopic: OPC Foundation 22:31:06 sk: OPC UA is used in manufacturing environments 22:31:07 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-09-tpac/2024-09-26-WoT-TPAC-Liaisons-OPCUA-Sebastian.pdf Slides 22:31:22 s|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-09-tpac/2024-09-26-WoT-TPAC-Liaisons-OPCUA-Sebastian.pdf Slides|| 22:31:35 i|OPC UA|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-09-tpac/2024-09-26-WoT-TPAC-Liaisons-OPCUA-Sebastian.pdf Slides| 22:31:40 rrsagent, draft minutes 22:31:42 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 22:31:48 ... the key concept is that we have shopfloor devices. They typically speak different protocols 22:32:13 ... opcua collects this data and presents in its own ecosystem 22:32:30 ... if you have everything in opcua level, it is easy to develop applications. 22:33:10 ... however, there are non opcua devices and the mapping of their datapoints is manual 22:33:36 ... since some months, there is a new spec from OPCF that uses TDs to onboard non opcua devices into OPC UA environments 22:33:45 ... with this spec, TD is part of it 22:34:22 ... we have started the discussion about northbound 22:34:42 ... we want to define an official opc ua binding within the OPC Foundation as a new working group 22:35:04 ... we have biweekly meetings. Next is on October 8th 22:35:13 ... W3C members can simply join 22:36:02 ... we plan the OPC UA binding to be the first external binding for the WoT 2.0 registry 22:36:45 q? 22:37:16 ... there will be more information in the wot week in the end of november 22:37:32 subtopic: ETSI ISG CIM 22:37:42 mm: They are doing NGSI-LD 22:37:56 ... the group works on context information management 22:39:19 ... NGSI-LD is the deliverable of interest. 22:39:44 ... we have meeting for the past 6 monhts. Now there are regular meetings since we have a liaison 22:40:09 Tomo has joined #wot 22:40:13 ... some NGSI=LD entities can be seen as WoT Things. So we would need a binding 22:40:35 ... linking to entities between two systems would also make sens 22:40:41 s/sens/sense 22:41:01 i|They are do|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2024-09-tpac/2024-09-26-WoT-TPAC-Liaisons-ETSI-ISG-CIM-McCool.pdf Slides| 22:41:01 rrsagent, draft minutes 22:41:03 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 22:41:10 q+ 22:41:20 ... if you have heard of FIWARE and want to see its relation to WoT, please join the meeting 22:41:35 ack k 22:41:49 https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/8dcbc0bc-b323-44e8-915c-180dee303674/20241014T100000/ is the next event 22:42:10 mm: we run the NGSI=LD meetings so if you are a member, you can just join 22:43:08 topic: AIoT 22:44:02 wl: we want present our proposal for a federated learning API and new TF 22:44:43 ss: here is the motivation of our work 22:45:02 ... security and privacy is a critical concern in centralized machine learning 22:45:22 ... there is strict regulation of collection and processing of private data, mandated by GDPR 22:45:39 ... centralized ML requires significant resources as well 22:45:40 i|we want pre|-> https://www.w3.org/community/federated-learning/ Federated learning CG| 22:45:53 i|we want pre|@@@ Slides tbd| 22:46:06 ... these can be mitigated by doing federated learning 22:46:21 ... it can learn from data in the client side, so not transmit the data 22:46:38 ... and less burden on the server 22:47:04 (aside: this may be interesting: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ppm-dap/) 22:48:06 ... you can see the architecture and the sequence diagram for the interactions 22:48:35 ... server can update the aggregated parameters and make a new global model 22:48:52 ... this can happen cyclically, thus many times 22:50:33 ... we identified that some WoT use cases are relevant for FL 22:50:37 q+ 22:50:56 ... there are some issues we identified as well 22:51:41 mm: we can define a common interface via thing models 22:51:58 ... for example entering a low power mode 22:51:59 q+ 22:52:05 ack m 22:52:51 q+ 22:53:30 sk: we should discuss this in a use case and possibly as an AI session 22:53:42 ... we can also invite microsoft 22:53:49 mm: this can be a CG topic 22:54:26 ek: we can organize something in a next meeting 22:55:51 wl: this was one technology. We should consider other AI technologies as well 22:56:07 ... we should create a TF to collect more information 22:56:39 mm: indeed. FL is one Thing. There are other technologies to consider 22:57:27 sk: this can be also a plugfest topic 22:58:02 q? 22:58:05 ack s 22:58:09 ack k 22:59:39 mm: the reason I said CG is because it seems like an incubation topic 23:00:05 q? 23:00:10 kaz: let's start with the use cases indeed 23:00:35 mm: we should close the meeting and make dinner plans 23:01:40 s/let's start with the use cases indeed/let's start further collaboration at the WoT CG first, then Use Cases and Requirements at the WoT IG, then concrete standardization at the WoT WG :)/ 23:01:43 rrsagent, draft minutes 23:01:44 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 23:02:35 gkellogg has joined #wot 23:12:56 gkellogg_ has joined #wot 23:25:56 scribenick: McCool 23:26:11 topic: JSON-LD/WoT Joint Call 23:29:35 gkellogg has joined #wot 23:31:47 gkellogg has joined #wot 23:32:14 Rob-OGC has joined #wot 23:32:23 EricS has joined #wot 23:32:27 present+ 23:32:33 Tomo has joined #wot 23:32:40 present+ 23:32:54 rrsagent, draft minutes 23:32:56 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 23:33:06 seb: starting joint meeting between WoT and JSON-LD WG 23:33:12 present+ Brian_McManus 23:33:14 present+ 23:33:33 present+ Ege_Korkan 23:33:42 present+ Ted_Thibodeau 23:33:51 present+ David_Lehn 23:33:54 seb: let's start with introductions 23:34:00 present+ 23:34:05 present+ Kunihiko_Toumura 23:34:10 present+ 23:34:10 present+ 23:34:12 present+ Benjamin_Young 23:34:15 rrsagent, draft minutes 23:34:16 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 23:34:22 present+ hirata 23:34:26 dl: digital bazaar 23:34:48 sebastian has joined #wot 23:34:50 gk: indep, json-ld 23:34:50 present+ 23:35:02 hirata: hitachi, wot wg 23:35:20 present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima 23:36:02 jan: ie wot, research univ, constrained devices, coap, SDF 23:36:09 present+ Gregg_Kellogg 23:36:15 kaz: team contact w3c 23:36:41 mm: intel, iot, ai, accelerated computing, wot co-chair 23:36:48 koster: iot, wot co-chair 23:37:11 rob: sdw co-chair, ogc, json-ld to link to openapi specs 23:37:30 ted: coding in english 23:37:48 tomo: use case tf of wot 23:38:00 seb: wot co-chair, siemens 23:38:09 josh: ignite, retail 23:38:19 jets: ignite retail 23:38:21 bengo has joined #wot 23:38:28 eric: 23:38:29 present+ 23:38:32 jthomas: ignite retail 23:38:38 ben: digital bazaar 23:38:47 toumura: hitachi 23:39:00 bengar: social wg 23:39:20 rigo: w3c team ld, legal counsel 23:39:23 s/bengar/bengo 23:39:30 s/ben/bigbluehat 23:39:57 subtopic: Current Status of JSON-LD 23:40:04 RRSAgent, draft minutes 23:40:05 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/26-wot-minutes.html TallTed 23:40:11 seb: update on status of topics relevant to WoT 23:40:22 bigbluehat lets take this offline for a deep dive... some initial work https://modern-json-schema.com/your-path-from-openapi-30-to-31-and-beyond 23:40:34 rigo has joined #wot 23:41:52 rrsagent, draft minutes 23:41:54 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/26-wot-minutes.html kaz 23:42:00 s/ben: digital/bigbluehat: digital/ 23:42:00 s/bigbluehatgo/bengo 23:42:00 s/ted: coding in/TallTed: primary coding language is/ 23:42:14 RRSAgent, draft minutes 23:42:15