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14:57:50 <tpac-breakout-bot> Meeting: Why is it like this? Installed Web Apps - how they are built, function, and struggle today.
14:57:50 <tpac-breakout-bot> Chair: Daniel Murphy, Reilly Grant
14:57:50 <tpac-breakout-bot> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2024-breakouts/issues/67
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14:57:51 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, clear agenda
14:57:51 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:57:51 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
14:57:52 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
14:57:52 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
14:57:52 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
14:57:52 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
14:57:53 <Zakim> agendum 3 added
14:57:54 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
14:57:54 <Zakim> agendum 4 added
14:57:54 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
14:57:56 <Zakim> agendum 5 added
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20:09:34 <dmurph> Zakim, this is Breakout: Why is it like this? Installed Web Apps - how they are built, function, and struggle today.
20:09:34 <Zakim> got it, dmurph
20:09:46 <dmurph> present+ Dan Murphy
20:10:03 <xiaoqian> present+
20:10:07 <xiaoqian> chair: dmurph
20:10:13 <xiaoqian> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:10:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-web-apps-struggle-minutes.html xiaoqian
20:10:21 <xiaoqian> RRSAgent, make log public
20:10:27 <HowardWolosky> present+
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20:19:38 <dmurph> Link to presentation: https://bit.ly/installed-web-app-state-struggles-2024-presentation
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20:20:02 <octogonz> Zakim present+ Pete Gonzalez (octogonz)
20:20:04 <HowardWolosky> Not publicly accessible
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20:20:16 <xiaoqian> +1
20:20:22 <ambake7> present+ Amanda Baker
20:20:36 <dmurph> scribe+ diekus
20:20:46 <NatashaGaitonde> present+ Natasha Gaitonde
20:20:54 <octogonz> present+ Pete Gonzalez
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20:21:02 <HowardWolosky> present+ Howard Wolosky
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20:21:17 <LuHuang> present+ Lu Huang
20:21:26 <dmurph> https://bit.ly/installed-web-app-state-struggles-2024-presentation
20:22:06 <diekus> dmurph: installed web apps: attempt to describe the problems we've seen.
20:22:06 <diekus> struggles, companies, apps. What is happening today?
20:22:29 <diekus> If you know about any other struggles, do let dan know!
20:22:57 <diekus> going through agenda, covers things like goals for user and dev, until where did it all go wrong.
20:23:02 <diekus> web apps exist for more than a decade
20:23:16 <diekus> devs can create cross-origin native like apps.
20:23:41 <diekus> users can custumize how they want to use the sw in their life
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20:23:52 <diekus> 90k unique installs seen by more than 50 users
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20:24:30 <diekus> Goals with web apps: 1- Devs should meet user expectations. (rich experiences, OS integration, etc)
20:25:13 <diekus> 2- users should choose the exp they want. Install/not install. All should be in the control of the users, including installing a website as an app
20:25:26 <diekus> 3- UAs can enhance the experience. autofill, translate, etc.
20:25:51 <diekus> slide with link to useful articles about fugu features.
20:26:14 <diekus> (still dmurpH) talking about shortcuts, as a cross-platform capability
20:26:26 <diekus> WCO! allows the app to control more of the titlebar area
20:26:30 <diekus> kinda like the native app
20:27:00 <diekus> examples of installable sites: youtube, whatsapp, zoom, figma, vscode, social networks etc
20:27:25 <diekus> final bg bits: url within scope, and app scope definition
20:27:37 <diekus> so whats the world like today
20:28:24 <diekus> apps with landing pages, login pages (same origin, sometimes not, sometimes redirects... etc), product home page, document pages
20:28:37 <diekus> apps generally are combinations of these type of pages.
20:29:02 <diekus> showcasing tab mode on chromeos. as a new feature
20:30:18 <diekus> installation goals:
20:30:18 <diekus> _theres not an app store for apps on the web
20:30:18 <diekus> _theres no authority for upgrading for example
20:30:18 <diekus> _launching the app should opent he expected home page
20:30:19 <diekus> _developers could be able to craft this experience
20:30:54 <diekus> sometimes theres a site restructure, changes to support a better update. etc etc. the web changes
20:31:03 <diekus> How does this work today?
20:31:22 <diekus> Showcsing install flow in Safari and Chrome
20:31:35 <diekus> introducing the web manifest
20:31:48 <diekus> -defines an entity and a unique id for that entity
20:31:58 <diekus> manifest scope:
20:32:12 <diekus> manifest properties (list some web app features)
20:32:26 <diekus> the web is based on an origin-security model
20:32:43 <diekus> manifet entity has to be the same origin as the document
20:32:46 <diekus> for security
20:32:54 <diekus> (still dmurph)
20:33:03 <diekus> not all pages have a manifest scope for example, login pages
20:33:38 <diekus> talking about some weirdness around manifest files
20:33:49 <diekus> WHERE DID ALL GO WRONG?!
20:34:03 <diekus> redirection: lots of redirection from login pages that mess up install flows.
20:34:22 <diekus> asyn manifest link happen. a manifest link gets called after the load
20:34:52 <diekus> cross-origin apps: due to differetn top level domains or different subdomains
20:35:10 <diekus> we have a solution called scope-extensions that solves nost of the cases. still working through TAG
20:35:22 <diekus> ...
20:35:34 <diekus> networ errors for manifest: not obvious for developers.
20:36:02 <diekus> a big thing is non recoverability of 'bad' installs
20:36:40 <diekus> for exampl, its very easy to install a single page Meeting page in google meet instad of the app
20:37:01 <diekus> what if web content wants to become a web app after it has been installed?
20:37:23 <diekus> dan ended with 2 versions of gmail, one of them doesnt get the new features to the manifest.
20:38:44 <diekus> relative urls; broken icons, manifest hosted in different places
20:38:44 <diekus> invalid scope
20:38:44 <diekus> manifest not in every page
20:38:44 <diekus> manifest without intrinsic sizes
20:38:45 <diekus> manifest that dont parse...
20:38:45 <diekus> ...
20:38:45 <diekus> its not obvious to the developer
20:39:11 <diekus> no way to automate and test these thing
20:39:36 <diekus> worst case users are installing multiple gmail clients
20:40:03 <diekus> future stuff would not work on these broken ap either
20:40:08 <diekus> (still dmurph)
20:40:38 <diekus> devs generally want to know if they should show an install button
20:41:02 <diekus> does any one here have a problem with installed web apps
20:41:41 <diekus> (ben) firefox not supporting install
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20:42:05 <diekus> (pete) there seems to be a lack of flagship apps. it would be great to know about those
20:42:17 <diekus> (vincent) agrees with perception
20:42:39 <diekus> (dmurph) devs might not wanna say that the app is a web app
20:43:13 <diekus> web can be flacky, work offline, and an app can be trusty.
20:43:40 <diekus> dmurph showing examples of web apps.
20:44:04 <diekus> (pete) electron has a website and advertises this as a for developers)
20:44:57 <diekus> (Natasha) netflix is a pwa, many docs in webapps
20:45:14 <diekus> (vincent) branding has been PWA. not a 1:1 relation between PWA and installable
20:45:19 <diekus> but its the closests.
20:45:57 <diekus> (pete) where's the isntallable web apps tshirt? somebody can make an sdk to make installable app
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20:46:06 <felipc> +q
20:46:25 <diekus> (natasha) pwabuilder helps you turn a website to an app
20:46:34 <scheib> Related to perception etc, https://business.adobe.com/blog/basics/progressive-web-app-examples and https://www.mobiloud.com/blog/progressive-web-app-examples list many
20:46:49 <diekus> (rob) pwa is an incremental step on top of a web site
20:47:33 <diekus> (rob) some people want the pwa exp to be like native
20:49:03 <diekus> (natasha) bundling runtime with the web app comes at a cost
20:49:25 <diekus> (natasha) lets be more strategic
20:50:06 <diekus> pwa-dev@chromium.org is a good channel for feedback
20:50:50 <diekus> (felipc) web apps communiation platform. has a pwa, elecron app
20:51:48 <diekus> (felipc) native apps can change UX from isntall to open. web apps cant
20:52:41 <diekus> (felipc) (...)
20:53:11 <octogonz> https://www.pwabuilder.com/ looks really good actually. It addresses the concern I raised about developer community engagement. If it's possible to link to this from the W3C docs/standards, or affiliate more closely, that could be really helpful.
20:53:12 <diekus> (felipe) thre area a lot of things that get in the way of a nice install experience
20:53:22 <NatashaGaitonde> Great to hear octogonz
20:54:18 <diekus> (dmurph) install detection, led by ms,
20:54:27 <diekus> (dmurph) scope extensions also int he works
20:54:36 <diekus> some stuff that can help with the experience
20:54:53 <diekus> (dmurph) navigation capturing and protocol handling
20:55:24 <diekus> promoting other same origin app installs
20:55:35 <diekus> theres a way of hacking an install button
20:55:54 <diekus> swapping the manifest theyre serving and clicking the button or swapping the manifest back
20:56:04 <diekus> people are doing this
20:56:08 <diekus> TAKEAWAYS:
20:56:25 <diekus> - general app taxonomy & common behaviours like redirection
20:56:32 <diekus> - gotchas: we need to live with them
20:56:48 <diekus> - when creating new APIs, thses gotchas should be kept in mind
20:56:58 <diekus> asides:
20:57:39 <diekus> id a developer opt in to an app experience we wil always prioritize this
20:57:49 <diekus> the user has also thecapability to crate manual apps
20:58:06 <diekus> its great the experience can be created
20:58:21 <diekus> you can also create a shortcut
20:58:33 <diekus> but shortcut != app
20:58:49 <diekus> -end of presentation-
20:59:10 <diekus> (ben)is there a TR for installable web apps
21:00:05 <diekus> (dmurph) closest is manifest spec
21:00:32 <NatashaGaitonde> https://www.w3.org/TR/appmanifest
21:01:23 <diekus> (vincent) for web app devs advocacy within the web apps group is very effecgive at motivating the other browser vendors
21:01:32 <diekus> edge + chrome the most motivated
21:01:47 <diekus> nice to see safari as well picking up some concept
21:03:16 <diekus> (dmurph) love comment from devs in specs and explaiers to support these powerful use cases
21:03:53 <diekus> (pete) prob with elecron is you need to trust whoever made the app
21:04:35 <diekus> (ben) CEO wouldnt care about the security issue so much)
21:04:47 <diekus> (dmurph) you need to make the website anyway
21:05:40 <diekus> (dmurph) anything blocking the recommending we want to know
21:10:03 <diekus> (pete) if I haf FF install an app and another browser isntall a app do we get confsion of multiple "same" apps?
21:10:37 <HowardWolosky> The "download" version of it starts to go into the IWA territory
21:13:12 <xiaoqian> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:13:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-web-apps-struggle-minutes.html xiaoqian
21:13:20 <octogonz> Very informative discussion, thanks for sharing! 👏
21:13:20 <dmurph> Zakim, end the meeting
21:13:20 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Dan, Murphy, xiaoqian, HowardWolosky, Amanda, Baker, Natasha, Gaitonde, Pete, Gonzalez, Wolosky, Lu, Huang
21:13:22 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
21:13:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-web-apps-struggle-minutes.html Zakim
21:13:30 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, dmurph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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21:19:00 <scheib> Tim at apple suggests feedbackassistant.apple.com for sending safari feedback
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