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14:52:47 <tpac-breakout-bot> Meeting: Expanding Verifiable Credentials: Future Standards and Innovations
14:52:47 <tpac-breakout-bot> Chair: mandyvenables, Wesley Smith
14:52:47 <tpac-breakout-bot> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2024-breakouts/issues/37
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14:52:48 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, clear agenda
14:52:48 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:52:48 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
14:52:50 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
14:52:50 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
14:52:50 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
14:52:51 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
14:52:52 <Zakim> agendum 3 added
14:52:52 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
14:52:52 <Zakim> agendum 4 added
14:52:52 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
14:52:53 <Zakim> agendum 5 added
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15:02:32 <DavidC> present+
15:03:11 <manu_> present+
15:03:27 <manu_> Meeting: Breakout: Expanding Verifiable Credentials: Future Standards and Innovations
15:03:46 <DavidC> Does anyone have the Zoom link please for this meeting
15:05:26 <DavidC> thanks. I never got a TPAC message even though I registered for remote participation
15:05:45 <manu_> Here's the Zoom link: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/76e1bb63-3f4d-43a9-b4c9-41cb403aa87c/
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15:13:31 <bigbluehat> present+
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15:22:21 <DavidC> manu_ thanks for the link. I have now registered at the W3C site but not got the Zoom link for the meeting yet
15:23:20 <mandyv> https://w3c.zoom.us/j/89520587850?pwd=LYfyjRztRrzY2A8i9SBftY7GYnbyiN.1
15:24:17 <bigbluehat> bigbluehat has changed the topic to: Breakout: Expanding Verifiable Credentials: Future Standards and Innovations - Manhattan - 08:30-09:30 https://w3c.zoom.us/j/89520587850?pwd=LYfyjRztRrzY2A8i9SBftY7GYnbyiN.1
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15:27:12 <bigbluehat> bigbluehat has changed the topic to: Breakout: Expanding Verifiable Credentials: Future Standards and Innovations - Manhattan - 08:30-09:30
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15:32:29 <DavidC> thankyou manu_
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15:34:30 <bigbluehat> wes-smith: I'm Wes Smith, presenting with Mandy from Digital Bazaar.
15:34:33 <Isaac> https://digitalbazaar.github.io/w3c-tpac-2024-presentations/future-vc-standards/Overview.html#s4-2
15:34:46 <bigbluehat> ... let's do a round of introductions
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15:35:46 <rigo> present+
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15:36:31 <GregB> Greg Bernstein: Invited expert, co-author cryptosuite specifications, author of test vectors, also working on BBS at IETF.
15:36:36 <rigo> presentation Rigo Wenning: W3C Legal counsel, contact person in Brussels, also doing research and development in the area of Digital Product passports
15:36:36 <JennieM> present+
15:36:50 <bigbluehat> bigbluehat: Benjamin Young, Digital Bazaar, Inc.
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15:36:55 <JennieM> Jennie Meier, Digital Contract Design
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15:37:29 <RYKay> Hello all, Kay - Infocomm Media Development Authority of Singapore, Observing
15:37:54 <ericaconnell> Erica Connell with Legendary Requirements
15:39:43 <bigbluehat> wes-smith: thanks for the intros!
15:39:56 <bigbluehat> ... please remember to be nice and follow the code of conduct.
15:40:10 <bigbluehat> ... we're discussing what might go into the next VCWG charter
15:40:22 <bigbluehat> ... there's a good deal of things being explored currently
15:40:42 <bigbluehat> ... we have 3 main categories: features, protocols, and applications of VCs
15:40:52 <bigbluehat> ... in features, we're looking at renderMethod and others
15:41:04 <bigbluehat> ... in protocols, we'll look at VC API and others
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15:41:20 <DavidC> we have lost the voice
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15:44:20 <bigbluehat> wes-smith: and...we're back. over to you, Mandy
15:44:33 <bigbluehat> Mandy: the screen is delayed for those here in the room--apoloies
15:44:38 <bigbluehat> ... First up, renderMethod
15:44:53 <bigbluehat> ... this allows issuers to provide displays of the credenital
15:45:03 <bigbluehat> s/credenital/credentials
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15:45:27 <bigbluehat> ... the community is experimenting with SVG, PDF, and others
15:45:28 <bigbluehat> ... Singapore is exploring OpenAttestation
15:45:43 <bigbluehat> ... there is an SVG render method implementation in the VC Playground
15:45:55 <bigbluehat> ... here's an example of a driver's license
15:45:59 <DavidC> q+
15:46:02 <bigbluehat> ... it can also be seen on the VC Playground
15:46:18 <wes-smith> Network issues, sorry folks, the Zoom setup in the room keeps dropping
15:46:20 <SinYong> OpenAttestation is in production since 2018
15:46:44 <bigbluehat> SVG render method code of the Utopia DL: https://github.com/credential-handler/vc-examples/tree/main/credentials/utopia-dl
15:46:46 <rigo> rrsagent, pointer?
15:46:46 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-vcwg-irc#T15-46-46
15:46:46 <bigbluehat> Mandy: next is confidenceMethod
15:47:02 <bigbluehat> ... this will help in confirming that the holder is the holder
15:47:18 <bigbluehat> ... this can use hardware keys and unlink-able signatures
15:47:24 <bigbluehat> ... here's another example
15:47:39 <bigbluehat> ... it supports multiple methods
15:47:47 <bigbluehat> ... back to wes-smith
15:48:03 <bigbluehat> wes-smith: the timeline for delivery of these range
15:48:16 <bigbluehat> ... there are current implementations, but the specs are mostly in progress
15:48:26 <bigbluehat> ... Unlinkable ECDSA is up next
15:49:02 <bigbluehat> ... traditional ECDSA is strongly linkable
15:49:35 <bigbluehat> ... but ECDSA is FIPS compliant, so the hope is to stick with ECDSA for it's various values--like that one--but add unlinkability
15:49:40 <bigbluehat> ... Next up is protocols
15:49:55 <bigbluehat> ... The VC API is an HTTP API for performing lifecycle management
15:50:03 <bigbluehat> ... issuance, verification etc.
15:50:28 <bigbluehat> ... it's most useful when you have several vendors, but wants a single interface to those various vendors
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15:50:50 <bigbluehat> ... so it can support DIDCom, OID4, and others
15:51:08 <bigbluehat> ... VC API is already in production with TruAge, CA DMV, and others
15:51:17 <bigbluehat> ... and in the W3C test suites
15:51:31 <phila> present+
15:51:45 <bigbluehat> Mandy: Next, we have Wireless VC sharing over Bluetooth and NFC
15:52:25 <bigbluehat> ... we're currently targeting First Responder scenarios, but it could also be used at border crossing and even retail for age verification and the like
15:53:03 <bigbluehat> ... there is a demo of this available...but the room is broken
15:53:11 <bigbluehat> ... sorry for the trouble folks on Zoom...
15:53:22 <bigbluehat> ... there is a video of VCs over NFCs
15:53:32 <bigbluehat> ... one phone has the wallet, the other has the verifier
15:53:54 <bigbluehat> ... you tap the two phones together and the verifier phone shows successful confirmation/verification
15:55:06 <bigbluehat> wes-smith: VC Barcodes
15:55:16 <bigbluehat> ... these are about physical credentials built from VCs
15:55:51 <bigbluehat> ... we encode VCs into barcode and a new cryptosuite
15:56:07 <bigbluehat> ... it includes data for the barcode and the visually readable content from the physical card
15:56:36 <bigbluehat> ... so on a driver's license, we sign the PDF417 MRZ and sign the human readable info as well
15:56:46 <bigbluehat> ... there are multiple implementations in progress
15:56:58 <bigbluehat> ... if you're interested, we'd love to have your help exploring this work
15:57:10 <bigbluehat> ... we're exploring it with the CA DMV and others
15:57:36 <bigbluehat> ... here's the Utopia DL again showing the added VC barcode as a PDF417
15:57:56 <bigbluehat> ... and below that is the Utopia Employment Authorization using a QR code
15:58:10 <bigbluehat> ... Next, we have the Citizenship Vocabulary
15:58:32 <bigbluehat> ... this vocab provides terms for governments related to citizenship status
15:59:03 <bigbluehat> ... Another vocab is related to Driver's Licenses. This one is already in use in the CA DMV
15:59:25 <bigbluehat> ... Lastly is one for Vehicle Titles...with a deployment in progress for CA DMV
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15:59:51 <bigbluehat> ... in summary, we're hopeful these will be included into the next VC recharter
16:00:06 <manu_> q?
16:00:24 <bigbluehat> ... in the meantime, we'd love to help what other things may be of interest to the room for inclusion in a future recharter
16:00:25 <manu_> q+ to ask about accessibility overlaps.
16:00:43 <bigbluehat> DavidC: is it better to say how the VC be displayed via protocol? or in the VC itself?
16:00:57 <bigbluehat> ... the OID4VCI group is putting it into the protocol vs. in the VC itself
16:01:34 <bigbluehat> ... we also have a delayed term for ??? which we hoped to do next, will that make it in?
16:02:01 <bigbluehat> wes-smith: could you say more about the protocol based approach?
16:02:21 <bigbluehat> DavidC: essentially, it could be provided at various points in the transaction
16:02:32 <manu_> q+ to note that putting it in VC makes the render mechanism portable.
16:02:36 <SinYong> q+
16:02:40 <bigbluehat> ... it's more of a headache to see these other standards bodies choosing to do it differently
16:02:44 <bigbluehat> ack DavidC
16:02:47 <bigbluehat> ack manu_
16:02:48 <Zakim> manu_, you wanted to ask about accessibility overlaps. and to note that putting it in VC makes the render mechanism portable.
16:03:01 <manu_> ack DavidC
16:03:05 <bigbluehat> manu_: when we were looking at renderMethod, we did look at doing it via the protocol
16:03:29 <bigbluehat> ... big issue is if the protocol access is unavailable for a time, you won't be able to display the credential
16:03:51 <bigbluehat> ... so no offline support for example and even online it becomes protocol centric
16:04:00 <bigbluehat> ... so it can't support Bluetooth, NFC, etc.
16:04:12 <DavidC> q+
16:04:19 <bigbluehat> ... but by putting it into the VC, we mode the display with the VC over any protocol
16:04:45 <bigbluehat> manu_: but, I mainly got on the queue to talk accessibility
16:04:55 <bigbluehat> ... we have a few opportunities over the next couple of years
16:05:01 <bigbluehat> ... wes-smith covered some vocabs
16:05:12 <bigbluehat> ... we could start talking about A11Y profiles of things
16:05:31 <bigbluehat> ... one class of work might be talking about what's needed in VCs to support A11Y
16:06:06 <bigbluehat> ... getting rid of captcha, supporting font and color preferences, we'd also need a good bit of help around providing auditory or haptic support via renderMethod
16:06:49 <bigbluehat> ... of those things, which do you feel are the most important?
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16:07:24 <bigbluehat> ???: one big thing is about minimizing effort for the person using the credential
16:07:32 <Roy> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:07:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-vcwg-minutes.html Roy
16:07:42 <bigbluehat> ... the other is around disclosure and not oversharing things like personal capabilities
16:07:53 <bigbluehat> ... because it risks exposing the user to prejudice
16:08:00 <bigbluehat> ... we don't know how to crack that nut
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16:08:06 <bigbluehat> ... we share a good deal of things in common
16:08:23 <bigbluehat> ... if we're honest about our abilities, we can share them gradually rather than all at once
16:09:01 <bigbluehat> ... in terms of what to support, we'd love to see support for as many mechanisms as possible: audio, visual, haptic, etc.
16:09:14 <phila> q+
16:09:21 <bigbluehat> ... everyone is just a "TAB"--Temporarily Able Bodied
16:09:32 <bigbluehat> ... so invoking via circumstance is probably where the win is
16:09:35 <wes-smith> ack SinYong
16:09:53 <bigbluehat> SinYong: renderMethod is very important to us
16:10:03 <bigbluehat> ... we're doing B2B with a long chain of intermediaries
16:10:19 <bigbluehat> ... organizations need time to process business update procedures
16:10:34 <bigbluehat> ... the QR code and renderMethod approach can help us provide paper VCs
16:10:50 <bigbluehat> ... these VCs travel through multiple hands before reaching the destination
16:11:16 <bigbluehat> ... digital VCs are harder because they don't move down the chain well
16:11:39 <bigbluehat> ... but this technology can reduce issues by enabling their use in paper processing scenarios
16:11:51 <wes-smith> ack DavidC
16:11:59 <bigbluehat> ... so if someone in the middle prints it on paper, the process is not disrupted
16:12:12 <manu_> s/???/Janina/
16:12:16 <bigbluehat> DavidC: having the renderMethod in the VC makes them larger
16:12:36 <bigbluehat> ... and then if there's something that doesn't support any of this like mDL, then you can't do that
16:12:46 <bigbluehat> ... and if it's in the protocol, then you could go get it later
16:13:00 <bigbluehat> ... and the issuer could change it later without having to issue the VC again
16:13:08 <bigbluehat> ... so maybe there's no right answer
16:13:15 <rigo> q?
16:13:22 <rigo> q+
16:13:24 <wes-smith> ack phila
16:13:26 <bigbluehat> ... but maybe there's still a way to unify the approaches through some harmonized scheme
16:13:38 <bigbluehat> phila: I wanted to underscore what SinYong was saying
16:13:44 <bigbluehat> ... and I like what DavidC just said as well
16:14:06 <bigbluehat> ... often, parties are reluctant to do this digital thing and would rather just send you a PDF
16:14:45 <bigbluehat> ... plus the A11Y issue becomes more easily handled with some of these options and multilingual options
16:15:05 <bigbluehat> ... but those would probably be best handled in the protocol--at least if an unknown amount of options is provided
16:15:19 <bigbluehat> ... but putting it into the VC has value also
16:15:35 <bigbluehat> ... having flexibility here will be important
16:15:37 <wes-smith> ack rigo
16:15:44 <bigbluehat> rigo: I wanted to put my lawyer hat on
16:15:56 <bigbluehat> ... the rendering isn't just about security, but about what's being rendered
16:16:10 <bigbluehat> ... we need to express that there are requirements on display like photo etc.
16:16:21 <bigbluehat> ... and some of that will need to be scannable even from paper
16:16:37 <bigbluehat> ... and the a11y requirements would also fall into this issue
16:16:39 <manu_> q+ to reflect on physical paper processes being increasingly important.
16:16:43 <wes-smith> ack manu_
16:16:43 <bigbluehat> ... because there are requirements
16:16:43 <Zakim> manu_, you wanted to reflect on physical paper processes being increasingly important.
16:16:57 <bigbluehat> ... so renderMethods may be required for certain scenarios
16:17:02 <bigbluehat> ... not just optional display
16:17:06 <bigbluehat> manu_: so, paper VCs.
16:17:38 <Gerhard9> q+
16:17:39 <wes-smith> q+
16:17:53 <bigbluehat> ... it's great that we have digital VCs of course, but there's clearly places where going in and out of paper and digital is clearly of interest to the room
16:18:08 <bigbluehat> ... and renderMethod also seems of interest with many more things to explore
16:18:23 <bigbluehat> ... so thank you all for highlighting these needs, so we can discuss them in the coming years
16:18:42 <bigbluehat> ... I'm also hearing more needs for VC API to prevent vendor lockin
16:18:46 <wes-smith> ack Gerhard
16:19:05 <Gerhard9> Two questions:
16:19:05 <Gerhard9> * How does this work interact with https://digitalcredentials.dev/?
16:19:05 <Gerhard9> * Has there been any discussion about clarifying the 'intent' of the sharing details, that can prevent misuse/social engineering/fraud
16:19:09 <bigbluehat> Gerhard9: two things I wanted to share
16:19:22 <bigbluehat> ... I saw the Digital Credentials API demo earlier at TPAC
16:19:40 <bigbluehat> ... I'm perhaps wondering where rendering might figure into that
16:19:46 <bigbluehat> ... I guess on the Wallet side of thing?
16:20:00 <manu_> q+ to speak to overlap with Digital Credential API
16:20:07 <bigbluehat> ... how does the work in VC land and things like renderMethod interact with the WICG Digital Credential API?
16:20:24 <bigbluehat> ... and does the recharter need to explain that integration?
16:20:37 <bigbluehat> ... my next question, what if I want to apply for a social grant?
16:20:46 <bigbluehat> ... what if someone is trying to take over my account?
16:20:57 <bigbluehat> ... has there been thought given into an intent specification
16:21:13 <manu_> q+ to say "intent to use" VC for verifier... "reason"
16:21:14 <rigo> q+ to talk about usage control in the privacy area that could be transposed
16:21:37 <bigbluehat> Gerhard9: I think having some explanation of intent could be useful for why the credential is being requested
16:21:48 <wes-smith> ack wes-smith
16:22:06 <bigbluehat> wes-smith: going back to paper-based processes
16:22:27 <bigbluehat> ... if you have a motivating use case for VC Barcodes, that's an early stage technology, so please please please come help us
16:22:36 <bigbluehat> ... so we can be sure it will be broad enough for what you need
16:22:42 <wes-smith> ack manu_
16:22:42 <Zakim> manu_, you wanted to speak to overlap with Digital Credential API and to say "intent to use" VC for verifier... "reason"
16:22:59 <bigbluehat> manu_: adding to that, the disability placard we've done with VCs also includes the VC Barcode
16:23:14 <bigbluehat> ... Gerhard9 responding to you, how much overlap with the VC API
16:23:21 <bigbluehat> ... there's hug overlap
16:23:44 <bigbluehat> s/the VC API/the Digital Credential API
16:24:04 <wes-smith> s/hug/huge
16:24:08 <bigbluehat> ... it's supposed to be format and protocol agnostic, and if it stays that way then it can support everything you described potentially
16:24:27 <bigbluehat> ... we do have the `reason` field during a request, we know that's insufficient
16:24:39 <wes-smith> q+ Janina
16:24:58 <bigbluehat> ... we are wanting more fields signed into requests and even supporting VCs stating intent and capabilities and features when making a request of what they are promising to do with that VC
16:25:10 <bigbluehat> ... so both of the things you mentioned are under active discussion
16:25:19 <wes-smith> ack rigo
16:25:19 <Zakim> rigo, you wanted to talk about usage control in the privacy area that could be transposed
16:25:33 <bigbluehat> ... and your point about needing liaison with WICG should go into the new charter for sure. Thank you
16:25:51 <bigbluehat> rigo: so...pandora's box is opening with these reasons and intent needs...
16:26:06 <bigbluehat> ... if we are saying, here's my intention for using this VC
16:26:15 <bigbluehat> ... we also have usage control requirements
16:26:32 <bigbluehat> ... which is very common rule...except in the US...[laughs in the room]
16:26:49 <bigbluehat> ... this is something manu_ will like because it really requires the use of Linked Data
16:27:05 <bigbluehat> ... because there are so many potential parties wanting to express things uniquely
16:27:08 <wes-smith> ack Janina
16:27:18 <bigbluehat> ... and RDF is really the only way to do that well currently
16:27:48 <bigbluehat> Janina: there are also relationships to be considered in the use of VCs especially around intent
16:28:16 <bigbluehat> ... things like delegation and surrogate support -- power of attorney, etc.
16:28:38 <bigbluehat> ... questions around renderMethod get interesting when coupled with requirements
16:28:41 <rigo> q+
16:28:46 <rigo> q-
16:28:58 <bigbluehat> ... because requiring the existence of a thing may not explain what is actually encoded in the thing
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16:29:07 <bigbluehat> wes-smith: excellent everyone! we're sadly out of time
16:29:13 <bigbluehat> ... thanks for coming!
16:29:16 <bigbluehat> Zakim, end meeting
16:29:16 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been DavidC, manu_, bigbluehat, Geun-Hyung, dezell, rigo, JennieM, phila
16:29:18 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:29:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-vcwg-minutes.html Zakim
16:29:25 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, bigbluehat; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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